livedarklions

Thanks for proving my point with one more insult. It was a very straightforward (not snide) question you obviously are too insecure to answer.

We get it. Sorry about your status insecurity.

Kapusta

Good lord. Give it a rest.

livedarklions

From YOU in THIS thread?!?! That's hilarious.

Kapusta

The debate I was in actually had a point (whether something can be lighter without being weaker).

You just can’t handle people making purchasing decisions you can’t understand, and have not let it rest for 10 pages.

Koyote

Again, even the most uninformed cyclist would know that it doesn't cost even 1% of that amount...Which is why your question is so ridiculous.

livedarklions

BS. I asked a simple question, and had a bunch of this condescending insult crud thrown at me.

Thanks for adding to it.

TX_master

I tend to agree with this. The fact that DA comes w/a 3yr warranty vs. 2 yrs for Ultegra/105 could possibly be a reflection that Shimano expects it to be that much more durable than the lower tiers despite the expectation it would likley be more heavily used. But I think its also possible that the extra year is intended to instill peace of mind in the buyer in case there is a problem. For a lot of people price isn't a barrier to entry, but $2K is still $2K any way you look at it. That said I've owned everything from Campy Record to 105 and never had a problem with any of it.

livedarklions

My question was if, as the poster said, whether it was worth it was not the question, then what was the question.
I simply used the extreme case to illustrate that what he was saying could not be literally true.

So tell me, if he isn't considering worth, what is he considering in making this spending decision? Why is that a ridiculous question?

Quit focusing on the extreme example, it's deliberately ridiculous to show you can't possibly mean what you're actually saying. It's a reductio ad absurdum argument. You're an academic, you should understand one when you see one.

Maelochs

Okay folks .... when even I step away from a thread because it has become mindlessly contentious .... you are below rock bottom.

You might be capable of worse, but I won't be here to see it. And before this I thought I was the worst ......

Sy Reene

Or could just be some type of actuarial science applied where they've figured out that some portion of the increased product cost will more than offset the possible increase in warranty claims, while adding a perceived benefit to the purchasers decision making process.

livedarklions

I could see that--it's possibly just a marketing-driven distinction.

I doubt there's all that many failures in the 3rd year anyway. The manufacturing faults probably shake out primarily in the first year.

PeteHski

So what are the objective benefits of DA over 105/Ultegra? There's a bit of weight saving (which doesn't interest me) and what else exactly? What is it doing for you to make you love it more than 105?

MinnMan

Interesting. you start out looking for something "objective" but before we get to the end, we find it's about what interests you. So I guess when you write "objective", you mean the opposite, "subjective".

(Some other guy on this thread would pull out his fancy "reducto ad absurdum" and tell you that you would care about weight if the difference were a million pounds, thereby concluding that you were not telling the truth about caring about weight. But that indeed would be absurd. The small difference in weight between DA and Ultegra doesn't matter to you. I have no interest in convincing you otherwise)

I have no idea what subjective benefits DA has that might interest you, so.I won't try.

Speaking personally and without regard for whether or not this impresses you or anybody else, I would simply point out that I was not buying a groupset, but rather a bike that came with a groupset. So the bike that came with DA had many other features that I sought, and in addition I was happy to be getting the the drive train that was light weight and had DI2 (available also with Ultegra, but not 105). The price differential between the DA bike with additional components that I wanted and the bikes with other groupsets and different sets of those other components was within a range that was not consequential to my decision.

I own 2 bikes with different vintage DA drive trains. I own 3 bikes with different vintage 105 drive trains (well, one of those is GRX 600, but that's approximately 105 level). I'm mostly happy with them all except for the oldest 105, which I think is 5600, and doesn't shift nearly as smoothly as, say, the mid-aged 105, which is 5800 and really pretty great. But the 5800 doesn't shift as smoothly as the 9150. Well, of course not, it's not electronic.

The DA bikes are much lighter than the others - both around 15 lbs. The specific weight of the drive trains isn't really how I think of it, but rather, it's the overall weight of the bikes. To make a light bike, you need to shave a little here, a little there. Each individual choice (this wheel vs. that wheel, this drive train vs. that) is small, but the accrued difference is larger.

PeteHski

Well you only had to read post #1 to see that I was looking for any objective advantages excluding weight, which I already know all about.

Now you've bothered to explain how you ended up with DA on your bike, rather than leave it to my imagination, it actually makes a lot of sense. I would probably have done the same if buying a complete off-the-peg bike.
Di2 would have pushed me to at least Ultegra level Shimano for the reasons you mentioned. Current bike has 105 7000, which is really hard to fault after 16,000 km with no adjustment required. But would like to try electronic Shimano (but won't be on this particular bike now)
I also agree how incremental weight can all add up. I'm aiming for an approx. 16 lb overall build, but it's not critical and won't affect my groupset choice in this case.

livedarklions

No I wouldn't because Peter has been extremely clear what he was looking for in information. He didn't trip over himself demonstrating how important it was to him that everyone know that weight doesn't matter to him. You were making a statement that you didn't consider whether it was "worth it". That's an implausible statement on its face, and you've now clarified. The range was small enough that you didn't care about it. And you go on to give a perfectly reasonable description of your priorities and how those qualities match YOUR criteria. Instead of insulting me, you could have explained this several posts ago.

​​​​​

livedarklions

No that wasn't the "debate". Peter just asked whether the weight difference made the components less durable, and you went nuts on him for even asking the question. And you did pile on in the absurd "money is no object" diatribes. Something about Peter "digging a hole" if I recall.

gpburdell

This thread. Wow. Reminds me of a room full of preschoolers who've missed their naps.

Kapusta

Uhhh, no.

Maelochs

Riding a bike is "better" than arguing on the Internet ..... for some folks.

mstateglfr 

What? Thats an absurd claim! Only a moron would even think such a thing! I would suggest you put yourself in message board timeout for such a wrong comment, but instead- lets now take the next 3 pages to argue over a simple opinion as if it is fact!

Koyote

That depends. Does the bike have Dura Ace, or just Ultegra?

Maelochs

How about arguing about a bike with 12-speed DI2 versus riding a bike with 8000 Ultegra?

The imaginary bike is red.

Koyote

I don't care which groupset is on it...I will always pick the red bike. And I don't mean SRAM Red.

You have found my weakness.

livedarklions

I've always been partial to blue. I didn't find out until my 20s that was because it and yellow are the colors unaffected by my color blindness. I like red, but I just think it's less dramatic for me.

But I do understand red is super fast.

livedarklions

And named Harvey.