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The death of rim brakes, disc brakes now unanimous in the pro peloton...

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The death of rim brakes, disc brakes now unanimous in the pro peloton...

Old 09-23-21, 09:22 AM
  #151  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by kingston
That's pretty much my point. There are no rim brake bikes available in that price range anymore. Their minds have been made for them.
And do they actually have any problems with those bikes? You've already said your wife is fine with them for the casual riding she does. Anyone looking for a bike to do more would likely be moving up the ladder anyway. But maybe you've found a point at around $1000 where cheap disc brakes are probably not worth having over quality rim brakes.
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Old 09-23-21, 09:24 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Is that just because they sell stuff you don't personally like?

So any company that sells something I don't want I'll label a "marketing company" from now on. Just to make it look like I know better.
I didn't make up the term marketing company and it's not pejorative.
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Old 09-23-21, 09:34 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I didn't make up the term marketing company and it's not pejorative.
No, you just substituted the term directly for "bike manufacturers" to make it look like they are fooling everyone except you of course because you can see through the scam right?
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Old 09-23-21, 09:59 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by kingston
The cheapest Trek road bike with hydraulic disks is around $4,000. So sure, if the average rider spends at least four grand on a new bike they may be better off with disk brakes. It's not true for me personally, but I'm probably not the average rider either.
Pure nonsense. Two minutes on Trek's website:

$3129 Domane SL 5
$1999 Domane AL 5
$1729 Domane AL 4

$3149 Emonda SL 5
$2149 Emonda ALR 5

$3129 Checkpoint SL 5
$2199 Checkpoint ALR 5
$1699 Checkpoint ALR 4

All of the above come with hydraulic disc brakes ... and there are more.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:11 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Pure nonsense.
Hi! You must be new here! Welcome!

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Old 09-23-21, 10:17 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Hi! You must be new here! Welcome!

It's like the movie "50 First Dates". Every morning I wake up thinking the stuff written on BF is fact-based.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:18 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
No, you just substituted the term directly for "bike manufacturers" to make it look like they are fooling everyone except you of course because you can see through the scam right?
I used the term marketing company because it's the marketing company who decides how to spec the bikes they market. The whole point of marketing is to get people to buy more stuff and spend more money than they otherwise would, so scam/not-a-scam not something I've ever brought up or care about, I'm just disappointed with how the market has eliminated options in the entry-mid-level market segment.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:22 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Pure nonsense. Two minutes on Trek's website:
Acknowledged. I obviously should have spent an additional 90 seconds on Trek's website.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:23 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I obviously should have spent an additional 90 seconds on Trek's website.
It's understandable - those pitchforks aren't going to wield themselves and you've got other things to do and people to see.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:24 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Maybe or maybe not. I think it depends on what's meant by average. Probably the average bike buyer is getting something like THIS BIKE. At price points such as these, is the consumer better off with the disc brakes or would they have been better off for the same dollars spent on a decent quality pair of rim brakes?
This is a $500 Schwinn hybrid from Dick's Sporting Goods. Before this pandemic, $500 used to be the price of an acceptable, entry-level hybrid bike from any of the Big 4 (Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, Giant), with which the average bike buyer would probably be better off if such deals were still available. The problem with mechanical disc brakes on a $500 Schwinn from Dick's Sporting Goods is that the discs may give an unsophisticated buyer a false sense of security.

I am ready to embrace the hydraulic disc brake future (in my next road bike), with both its advantages and disadvantages.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:25 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by kingston
Acknowledged. I obviously should have spent an additional 90 seconds on Trek's website.
Yeah, but that's understandable. It's so much easier just to base your whole argument on something you pulled out of your butt.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:35 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yeah, but that's understandable. It's so much easier just to base your whole argument on something you pulled out of your butt.
My whole argument is that entry-mid-level bikes would be better with rim brakes than cheap mechanical disks, so while $1800 vs. $4000 is a regrettable mistake, it's not critical to my whole argument.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:42 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by kingston
My whole argument is that entry-mid-level bikes would be better with rim brakes than cheap mechanical disks, so while $1800 vs. $4000 is a regrettable mistake, it's not critical to my whole argument.
Your whole argument is pulled from the same orifice.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:46 AM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by kingston
My whole argument is that entry-mid-level bikes would be better with rim brakes than cheap mechanical disks, so while $1800 vs. $4000 is a regrettable mistake, it's not critical to my whole argument.
Others would disagree with your whole argument, which is less an argument and more a preference. Personally, I'd rather keep things more interchangable, both for a feasible upgrade path and for a broader variety of replacement parts.
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Old 09-23-21, 10:58 AM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Others would disagree with your whole argument, which is less an argument and more a preference. Personally, I'd rather keep things more interchangable, both for a feasible upgrade path and for a broader variety of replacement parts.
Definitely just a preference. As you know, different preferences turn into arguments on the internet.
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Old 09-23-21, 11:36 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by kingston
That's pretty much my point. There are no rim brake bikes available in that price range anymore. Their minds have been made for them.
There were no disc brakes available when I was buying all my bikes. It must have been those dastardly bike marketing companies who made my mind up for me. When I bought a couple of sub-$/€1k road bikes in the 00’s, they all came with triple cranks. Stupid bike marketing companies forcing me to have more gears than I wanted/needed. Now with the same bikes, I’m forced to have a compact!

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Old 09-23-21, 11:48 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Leinster
There were no disc brakes available when I was buying all my bikes. It must have been those dastardly bike marketing companies who made my mind up for me. When I bought a couple of sub-$/€1k road bikes in the 00’s, they all came with triple cranks. Stupid bike marketing companies forcing me to have more gears than I wanted/needed. Now with the same bikes, I’m forced to have a compact!
I'm with ya, brother. I miss my triples too. Shall we change the topic to compact doubles and wide-ratio cassettes vs. half-step triples?
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Old 09-23-21, 12:35 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I used the term marketing company because it's the marketing company who decides how to spec the bikes they market. The whole point of marketing is to get people to buy more stuff and spend more money than they otherwise would, so scam/not-a-scam not something I've ever brought up or care about, I'm just disappointed with how the market has eliminated options in the entry-mid-level market segment.
I might agree with you at the very lowest level. A bit like those really crappy full suspension mtbs you see in the box stores. That's pure marketing bs for sure.
But once you get into decent hydraulic disc brakes like you would find on a mid-level bike with say Shimano 105, it's far more engineering led. Shimano, SRAM, Campag have all come to the same conclusion about the way forward with braking on road bikes. Bike designers and consumers have already made their preference pretty clear. Marketing just follows along naturally. Marketing didn't invent disc brakes, engineers did. Consumers at the higher end of the market are not stupid. You can market complete crap to the bottom end of the market for sure, but not much above.

I don't know what bikes you intend to buy in the future, but anything half decent is going to feature hydraulic disc brakes from this point forward. If entry level bikes feature crappy mechanical disc brakes just to look the part, then maybe that is a problem if you are in that specific market. But I don't remember rim brakes being good at that level either.

On a cost basis there isn't actually that much in it now. A quick look at prices here in the UK shows a Shimano 105 rim brake caliper costs more or less the same as an hydraulic caliper. Okay so you have to buy rotors too, but on a mid-level bike costing say $2000 it's hardly a big deal. Looking at the whole 105 groupset cost, it's about £150 difference, although you can get deals on the rim brake groupset for obvious reasons!

Last edited by PeteHski; 09-23-21 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 09-23-21, 01:36 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by kingston
My whole argument is that entry-mid-level bikes would be better with rim brakes than cheap mechanical disks...
Based on what factual evidence? I once purchased an entry mid level bike with rim brakes for my wife....Trek Skye. The rim brakes were so bad I had to upgrade them them to Avid rim brakes and even then the Avids were barely a step up.
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Old 09-23-21, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
I'm with ya, brother. I miss my triples too. Shall we change the topic to compact doubles and wide-ratio cassettes vs. half-step triples?
No. Because then we would have tell you how the compact 2x is better than the old 3x. It ends up being one of them things...You don't know what you don't know.

Kind of like 1x is the standard in the mountain bike world. Lot of people still thinking old school 2x or 3x is better.
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Old 09-23-21, 01:56 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by kingston
I'm remined of that every time I join one of these discussions.
Ahhhhh, but have you Learned it .....

Not J/K ..... completely
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Old 09-23-21, 02:09 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by kingston
All bike companies are marketing companies.
Originally Posted by PeteHski
Is that just because they sell stuff you don't personally like?

So any company that sells something I don't want I'll label a "marketing company" from now on. Just to make it look like I know better.
Originally Posted by kingston
I didn't make up the term marketing company and it's not pejorative.
Whether or not a term is used pejoratively determines whether or not it is a pejorative term ..... And here, either you meant to use it to demean bike companies, or you have zero ability to communicate .... based on past posts, I'd say you definitely meant it pejoratively.

A "marketing company" is a company which specializes in marketing---selling, promoting, advertising, finding new markets and finding ways to penetrate those markets, finding new ways to introduce and explain a product to make more people want to buy it.

Every company does some form of marketing, even irf it is just a web page.

And if your actual point is that bike companies are in it for the money .... that would be the smartest thing you ever said. of course, a business is in business to do business.

That is like saying an employee is in it for the paycheck. The employee wouldn't be an "employee" if it weren't for the paycheck .... it is receiving a paycheck for labor which defines "employee" ....

If the business weren't trying to make money it wouldn't be a business it would be a charity. If you expect people to build the bikes you want and give you them for free .... please, hold your breath. The bikes are coming, just hold your breath ....

On the other hand, companies have to sell something people are willing to buy. The idea that a few people have, that nobody likes discs because they don't .... shows a high degree of delusion. When disc bikes were first introduced, they sold. You can say they only sold because the pros rode them, but in fact the pro peloton hadn't adopted discs yet (because discs will cut every limb off every rider in every race.)

I was part of a promotion company staging a local two-day, three stage race, and I got to talk to more than one or two racers. The series it was part of was not fully UCI compliant, so some riders with fat wallets would buy the lightest bikes out there to gain some tiny edge---and despite slow wheel changes, despite weight, despite all that, it seems riders who tried discs liked discs.

I know it sucks when reality goes off and diverges from your fantasy .... And I am glad, knowing that my rim-brake frames should last me the three or four decades I might be alive (of course it might be three or for days or minutes .... )

As for what I might buy if I were ever to buy another bike .... all I know is that it will certainly be better than any bike I had bought previously.

If you don't feel that way . ... sucks to be you.
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Old 09-23-21, 02:11 PM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by kingston
.... I'm just disappointed with how the market has eliminated options in the entry-mid-level market segment.
Well, good news, because it has been shown that this si snot the case. You just cherry-picked results to support your rant and ignored all the contrary data. Admirable.
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Old 09-23-21, 02:13 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by prj71
...You don't know what you don't know.
Hand me that irony, please. Oh, wait, never mind .... I have plenty right here.
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Old 09-23-21, 02:43 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
If you don't feel that way . ... sucks to be you.
It doesn't suck. It's totally fine. Liberating in some ways. It just means I can't buy new stuff off the showroom floor. And look how entertaining it is for you guys to make fun of me and my luddite preferences.
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