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E bikes

Old 07-09-22, 09:47 PM
  #76  
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0on our e tandem we use very little power when we cruise at 18.5 to 19mph the motors cutoff curve is right there. the prime is we could go faster on the flats but cadence is wrong we would need to go 22mph to get the cadence in the 80 range and we can't quite manage that. 19.5 is like 75 rpms and its too slow.
this ride we did not use much motor till coming back and we hit some 15% grades. no way we could do that all on our own. its hard to get a higher heart rate on the tandem unless we climb constantly but this is not too bad for a mostly flat ride.


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Old 07-11-22, 09:23 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Her Ebike allows her to be able to ride with me when I do a fitness ride, and it allows her to climb hills that she otherwise would not be able to.
That's just it. You don't build the fitness on an e-bike to climb those hills.

Beautiful photo. Where is that at?
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Old 07-11-22, 09:27 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by prj71
That's just it. You don't build the fitness on an e-bike to climb those hills.

Beautiful photo. Where is that at?
you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

most ebikes allow you to pedal absolutely as hard as your fitness allows, which is what allows your fitness to increase. there is no limiter preventing you from pedaling.

you don’t have to do this, of course, but you also don’t have to pedal a regular bike hard.
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Old 07-11-22, 09:34 AM
  #79  
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I do know what I'm talking about. Riding a human powered bike up hills requires putting in the work and building up the fitness that allows a person to do it without needing pedal assist.
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Old 07-11-22, 09:52 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by prj71
I do know what I'm talking about. Riding a human powered bike up hills requires putting in the work and building up the fitness that allows a person to do it without needing pedal assist.
no debate on that. what you said was that riding an eBike DIDN’T allow you to build fitness.

i started a few years ago with an electric road bike. did 30-70 mile rides with 3,000-6,000 feet of climbing. used the motor where i needed to, always working as hard as i safely could. did those rides almost from day one, without too much fear of getting in over my head.

i used gradually less and less assist (easily tracked by battery stats) until eventually i was almost never using it. got a “regular” road bike and now do those rides without a motor or battery.

so no, you don’t know what you’re talking about. i and countless others have actually lived it first hand, with demonstrable proof.
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Old 07-11-22, 10:07 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by mschwett
i used gradually less and less assist (easily tracked by battery stats) until eventually i was almost never using it. got a “regular” road bike and now do those rides without a motor or battery.
That's good. Good for you. But I know you would have got there and built up that fitness quicker sans e-bike.

Majority of e-bikers will never do what you did though. That's what I was getting at. If a person is always going to ride the e-bike "because they can't climb those hills" then they aren't really working to build up the fitness. Riding the flat ground and down hills are easy on both human powered and e-bike.
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Old 07-11-22, 10:38 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by prj71
That's good. Good for you. But I know you would have got there and built up that fitness quicker sans e-bike.

Majority of e-bikers will never do what you did though. That's what I was getting at. If a person is always going to ride the e-bike "because they can't climb those hills" then they aren't really working to build up the fitness. Riding the flat ground and down hills are easy on both human powered and e-bike.
as long as people are doing physical work towards their limits, they'll build up fitness. what do you think is more likely to build that - riding around on flat ground in traffic because it's all they can currently accomplish, or having freedom to try out hills, country roads, trails, and other venues that are simply not possible for them without a little help?

everyone has unique circumstances. i agree that a young healthy person who is reasonably height-weight proportionate on a bike with gears can probably eventually get to riding just about anywhere. that's not the world we live in though, and to say that "you can't build up fitness on an e-bike" or "e-bikes aren't good exercise" or any of the other things people who haven't been in those shoes are saying in threads like this is totally detrimental to the cause of getting people out of cars, onto bikes, and in better shape.

in my case, i am apparently healthy and fit but have a heart condition which limits me significantly. your point "i know you would have got there ... sans e-bike" is absolutely, completely untrue. i would not have even gotten ON the bike, let alone gradually and safely increase my efforts. literally the first big hill (and i live at the corner of a 20% grade) would have put me on the ground waiting to get shocked by my defibrillator. a unique circumstance - yes - but it doesn't help for people who don't "know" to go around saying they do, does it?
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Old 07-11-22, 12:45 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
faster and farther with the amount of effort I can usually put out. myself My body is wonky and I cant eat any carbs and my body only seems to use protein for fuel so don't have the same energy levels as others have. I tend to only burn around 400 to 500 calories a hour.
Fooferdoggie, I have been adamantly opposed to ebikes, mainly because nearly all that I encounter where I ride, are not pedalling. Your patient responses to many posters on this thread, and the above response in particular, has opened my mind regarding the ebike. Kudos.
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Old 07-11-22, 12:48 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1
Fooferdoggie, I have been adamantly opposed to ebikes, mainly because nearly all that I encounter where I ride, are not pedalling. Your patient responses to many posters on this thread, and the above response in particular, has opened my mind regarding the ebike. Kudos.
i wonder if there is some sort of regional factor at work here. i ride a lot, and see lots of eBikes both when i'm riding for utility/commute, and the vast, vast, vast majority are pedaling. i actually can't remember the last time i saw someone not pedaling. maybe a few delivery people on throttle bikes.

on longer rides for pleasure, in the hills, country roads, MUPs... it's maybe one in 10 or one in 20 ebikes. absolutely zero impact on anyone. are misbehaved eBike riders much more common in other parts of the world, or is this some sort of subconscious bias?
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Old 07-11-22, 12:56 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Outrider1
Fooferdoggie, I have been adamantly opposed to ebikes, mainly because nearly all that I encounter where I ride, are not pedalling. Your patient responses to many posters on this thread, and the above response in particular, has opened my mind regarding the ebike. Kudos.
I do see a lot not peddling or ghost peddling myself. but they are Hub drive bikes. a mid drive (name brand like trek and specialized) are bought to just assist as no throttle and to go fast you have to work at it. If I had the energy I would love to ride a regular bike but at the speeds I can go it sucks. but I just enjoy my ebike so much more daily commutes are not a issue. But I am a bit off in that. my wife gets a good workout on our e tandem but she has more energy then I do. I rode several years commuting on a road bike then a recumbent but it was a battle and never got a rush out of it. I had to sell my recumbent after 5 years of sitting bought a e scooter and it was fun but slow and you froze in winter. discovered mid drive ebikes and never looked back. its hard to believe I rode so much now but my wife loves riding so much that sometimes I ride too much to make her happy. I ride pretty much every day rain or shine.
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Old 07-11-22, 12:58 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by mschwett
i wonder if there is some sort of regional factor at work here. i ride a lot, and see lots of eBikes both when i'm riding for utility/commute, and the vast, vast, vast majority are pedaling. i actually can't remember the last time i saw someone not pedaling. maybe a few delivery people on throttle bikes.

on longer rides for pleasure, in the hills, country roads, MUPs... it's maybe one in 10 or one in 20 ebikes. absolutely zero impact on anyone. are misbehaved eBike riders much more common in other parts of the world, or is this some sort of subconscious bias?
Im in Louisiana. Near me they are ridden by kids as motorcycles and by young adults to get to work at the businesses along our MUP, again as motorcycles. And they are used in a way that is dangerous to everyone around them. High speeds, weaving around people, etc. Our long 26 mile Rails to Trail path has banned them in any form so the responsible people can't use them in the way they'd probably like to. I don't think I've ever seen one ridden by someone over the age of 25. There are elderly people on road bikes but not on ebikes.
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Old 07-11-22, 01:01 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by mschwett
i wonder if there is some sort of regional factor at work here. i ride a lot, and see lots of eBikes both when i'm riding for utility/commute, and the vast, vast, vast majority are pedaling. i actually can't remember the last time i saw someone not pedaling. maybe a few delivery people on throttle bikes.

on longer rides for pleasure, in the hills, country roads, MUPs... it's maybe one in 10 or one in 20 ebikes. absolutely zero impact on anyone. are misbehaved eBike riders much more common in other parts of the world, or is this some sort of subconscious bias?
I see a fair amount here in Portland. but only hub driven bikes. I had one guy on a rad only using throttle trying to pass us when we were doing 18.5 on our tandem. he finally had to peddle to pass us and kept having to peddle to just keep a head of us it was funny. most are somewhat ok with knowing what to do some not usually they are at least riding on the right side of the road. I almost got hit by a old guy on a regular bike riding on the wrong side of a cross street turning into the bike lane. but had one guy using throttle only doing 25+ on a path with lots of homeless and such.
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Old 07-11-22, 01:42 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR
You do realize that you can conquer those hills without a motor?
If you are riding them with the extra weight from a motor/battery, you are likely able to get over the hump under your own power.
22% is pretty tough. I'd guess a substantial percentage of recreational riders could not climb a 22% grade of any distance.

Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
yes I can at a few mph like I used to on my recumbent. but I much rather put out 450 watts and climb it at 10mph. some of those hills will get my heart rate at 160. thats far more fun then going up them in granny gear.
I've never seen a recumbent on anything like a 22% hill, and I've done some hilly rides where recumbents were present.
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Old 07-11-22, 01:59 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by prj71
That's good. Good for you. But I know you would have got there and built up that fitness quicker sans e-bike.

Majority of e-bikers will never do what you did though. That's what I was getting at. If a person is always going to ride the e-bike "because they can't climb those hills" then they aren't really working to build up the fitness. Riding the flat ground and down hills are easy on both human powered and e-bike.
I agree with some of your earlier posts and I agree that many e-bike riders are a menace on the mup and the road.

But I have to say that e-bikes can be a valuable tool for training, especially for those of us who have a-fib or other heart issues. One of my friends who raced road and crits for years got an e-bike when the doctor ordered him to control his heart rate. His wife, also a long time racer, got one, too. They have done club rides and group rides for over a year now and they are safe and don't try to blow up the ride or drop everyone. Last Saturday the wife came out on her old race bike and she was quite fast in the hills because of all the miles they had put in on the e-bikes.

Could she have reached this level of fitness without the e-bike? Yes but she wouldn't have put the hours in if her husband couldn't ride. I know this because when he was diagnosed her fitness dropped to the point that I could beat her on the climbs. Having those e-bikes has allowed them to train and have fun like they did years ago. Will he be able to climb like before? Probably not but I'm sure he is at a level he would not have reached without the motor.

I've considered one. I've dealt with a-fib, COPD, and joint issues and it's hard for me to do the rides I like to do. At 68, I have no illusion of suddenly becoming a faster climber. I've been on a bit of an upward trend in my ability the last few months, so maybe I'll wait a while.
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Old 07-11-22, 01:59 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by m.c.
Im in Louisiana. Near me they are ridden by kids as motorcycles and by young adults to get to work at the businesses along our MUP, again as motorcycles. And they are used in a way that is dangerous to everyone around them. High speeds, weaving around people, etc. Our long 26 mile Rails to Trail path has banned them in any form so the responsible people can't use them in the way they'd probably like to. I don't think I've ever seen one ridden by someone over the age of 25. There are elderly people on road bikes but not on ebikes.
that sucks. i do not see that here - ever. ebikes are ridden very commonly by people of all ages. perhaps all the steep hills make more normal/lawful people ride them more often than otherwise.
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Old 07-11-22, 02:02 PM
  #91  
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I see abuse on ebikes by young and older folks. Some should not be on them period. My wife has a pedal assist Townie that requires her to pedal and that she does. She has it because of a disability that limits her exertion ability. She is a cyclist that knows protocol and uses her ebike the way I use my road bike. I really don’t like the throttle type ebikes because to me, they are just electric motorcycles. One of my riding buddies has a Specialized Creo Turbo that is assist type and he only uses the assist when he is doing a long climb. When we ride it is just a nice carbon bike that rides like a normal bike. As with just about anything, there will be those that abuse a good thing and it ruins it for those who ride respectfully.
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Old 07-11-22, 02:18 PM
  #92  
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I would guess that ebikes are also being ridden, even where they aren't allowed, by responsible people who don't do anything to draw attention to themselves. Im sure more ages are riding them but they don't stand out and they have the type that look like bicycles. I would say they've probably been near me and I didn't notice them.

For a while the E Bike conversions, front wheel with a motor on it, on cruisers were popular. Now the popular choice with the kids are the electric fat bikes, they have pedals but look almost like a dirtbike.

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Old 07-11-22, 02:29 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by beng1
I call "e-bikes:" mopeds, because that is what they actually are, they have no more relation to a real bicycle than the pedal-start board-track racing motorcycles of the WWI era.

They are no more bicycles than an "e-cigarette" is a cigarette. They do not belong at bicycle gatherings or at bicycle rides, they belong at events and gatherings for motor vehicles, maybe the Harley-dominated poker-run.

If I ever smell that an moped rider believes they have anything to do with human-powered bicycling, an effort should be made to correct their thinking. I am sure they are forums for motorcycles with sections for so-called "e-bikes", and there are internet forums specific to gasoline powered mopeds and scooters, that is where the e-biker and their over-priced trendy, fashionable POS belong.
That's why I tried to coin the term "e-ped." Following the same thing as "motorcycle+pedal" = moped. Electricity+pedal=e-ped. When I'm on my deathbed in the far future and my kid comes up and says, "I rode my e-ped here!" I'll know I've won.
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Old 07-11-22, 02:41 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by big john
22% is pretty tough. I'd guess a substantial percentage of recreational riders could not climb a 22% grade of any distance.


I've never seen a recumbent on anything like a 22% hill, and I've done some hilly rides where recumbents were present.
I would not imagine it. I did 16% on my bent with a triple and it was all I could do. I had to stop once and it was a battle getting going again. but I was able to pull a 150# trailer with it up short 10% grades. even with my bosch motor that 22% grade was hard. I had to put out 520 watts to b able to peddle at 60rpms. but my bikes are not low geared and that hurts plus usually around 70 pounds with locks and such.
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Old 07-11-22, 03:06 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
I would not imagine it. I did 16% on my bent with a triple and it was all I could do. I had to stop once and it was a battle getting going again. but I was able to pull a 150# trailer with it up short 10% grades. even with my bosch motor that 22% grade was hard. I had to put out 520 watts to b able to peddle at 60rpms. but my bikes are not low geared and that hurts plus usually around 70 pounds with locks and such.
In April I did a short 18% section on a climb which was hard before that part. I have a 34x29 low gear and it was tough. There is a 23% section on the other side of that hill and I haven't climbed it since the ATOC race went there a few years back and I was on a triple bike. That was brutal.
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Old 07-11-22, 03:22 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by big john
22% is pretty tough. I'd guess a substantial percentage of recreational riders could not climb a 22% grade of any distance.


I've never seen a recumbent on anything like a 22% hill, and I've done some hilly rides where recumbents were present.
I fit the bill of an average 200+lbs rec rider.
What I am getting to is do not engage in self-defeating assertions that a steep grade is too much to attempt.
What I have learned is some strategy is involved in taking one's time and not going into the red too soon.
Sure gears help, but so does mixing it up with out of the saddle stair stepping, seated slow grinding and spinning at a normal cadence until the grade exhausts that option.
I have several 20% grades within a few miles of my front door. I am nothing special by any means but I no longer have trepidation about steep grades. There are some on dirt roads even steeper locally. Those are to be built up to and the idea of a motor does not even register.
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Old 07-11-22, 04:48 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR
I fit the bill of an average 200+lbs rec rider.
What I am getting to is do not engage in self-defeating assertions that a steep grade is too much to attempt.
What I have learned is some strategy is involved in taking one's time and not going into the red too soon.
Sure gears help, but so does mixing it up with out of the saddle stair stepping, seated slow grinding and spinning at a normal cadence until the grade exhausts that option.
I have several 20% grades within a few miles of my front door. I am nothing special by any means but I no longer have trepidation about steep grades. There are some on dirt roads even steeper locally. Those are to be built up to and the idea of a motor does not even register.
I'm also 200+ pounds. I don't need to engage in self-defeating assertions about a 22% grade on a road bike because I have climbed that one several times, the first time over 30 years ago. It's too steep to serve any real purpose, it's not fun, and I will probably never do it again.

I think about 15% is about as steep as I care to do on a road bike. I generally don't stand up on such climbs and I generally don't tack across the road. On a mountain bike I will climb steep stuff sometimes but I have a much lower gear.

I've gone to the Fargo Street hillclimb several times but only as a spectator, (it's around 33%). Several of my friends have done it and I went with some junior trackies and one of them climbed it like it was easy.

I actually don't know of any 20% grades near home and have to travel to get to one. The 23% grade I mentioned earlier is in Moorpark and was used in the ATOC.

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Old 07-14-22, 02:42 PM
  #98  
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Did 58 miles last Sunday on my Canyon CF road bike. Riding a sub 20 lb bike doesn't give me much of a workout. Its just as hard riding a BBS02 mid-drive ebike on eco mode (level 2 of 9) assist that only gives you maybe 125 watts of assist on a 65 lb bike just for the sake of avoiding range anxiety. I'm probably getting better watts/kg on my road bike than my ebike. The only advantage with the ebike is I can carry more gear. That may change now that I'm building a bikepacking rig.
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Old 07-14-22, 05:08 PM
  #99  
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Four wheels bad, two wheels good.
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Old 07-16-22, 08:26 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by jdogg111
I'm seeing a ton of e bikes on our local greenways lately, and it not just old geezers like me . Lots of folks that look to b in their 40s and even 30s. At a rest stop recently, I asked an older gent if I could lift his bike, I just wanted a sense of the weight. Goodness it had to be at least 40 lbs or more. Seems like a light 20 lb bike would be as easy to ride as that bad boy is, but what do I know, they pass me like I'm standing still. My question is , are they getting a good workout?
The good news tho, is the fact it is getting more people off the couch, like my friend that used to laugh at my bike riding. He and his wife got electrics, and now he has over 2000 miles on his.
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