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Crashing techniques and styles

Old 07-19-22, 08:00 AM
  #301  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
If you have a problem going from 0-100...
Damn. Is anyone here that fast?
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Old 07-19-22, 08:01 AM
  #302  
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Honey your ass over the back wheel behind the saddle and then squeeze both levers equally. The added weight over the back tire reduces/ minimizes the skid.
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Old 07-19-22, 08:11 AM
  #303  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
Lions, you can avoid going over the bars by redistributing your weight. Some of you seem to be missing the "emergency" part of the stop, its not going to be pretty and risk free. Lions you think its hard to lock up your back wheel which tells me that you aren't using the front nearly as hard as you could be. The rear is just a backup and if you NEED it to help you stop and avoid going over the bars you are doing it wrong.

If you have a problem going from 0-100 slamming your brakes as hard as you can you have something you could work on if you wanted to. It's definitely possible, and the back brake doesn't really do anything in that situation except skid the rear, which TBH is honestly fine but still not ideal.

Let's be clear--I think hitting the brakes as hard as I can is doable, it's the possibility of doing this without intending to I was objecting to. I don't lock my wheels because it is never my instinct to do so, and I think it's almost never the right strategy. "Training" myself to do it is likely counterproductive as it could only serve to supplant by conditioning the set of emergency reflexes I have which have served me quite well to this point. Also, high speed brake lock is a risky maneuver under any conditions, "practicing" it to reduce the likelihood of getting hurt later in the unlikely event that it is the best strategy in a later incident really is probability malpractice. Looking over what I wrote, I obviously wasn't as clear about that as I should have been.

If it's a real emergency, you are claiming that it's faster to redistribute your weight than it is to touch the rear brake. That's just ridiculous.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about, and your track record is not something anyone would want to emulate with the broken neck and all. Just stop telling us what you think we'll benefit from because at this point, your "advice" is only good for the lulz.

And how does anyone go from 0-100 slamming the brakes? The numbers are stupid, but they're also in the wrong direction. Are you using your brake to speed up your bike?
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Old 07-19-22, 08:27 AM
  #304  
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So Lions you don't mind having to grab the front brake as hard as you can seemingly out of nowhere? 0-100 is an expression, in this case it means youre coasting down a hill caught up in your own thoughts, and all of the sudden you need to slam your brakes as hard as you can. My whole point here is that in this instance (super specific and unrelated to 99.9% of braking situations) the back brake does little to nothing to help you, and relying on it can hinder your ability to use the front to its full potential. This talk of how you can squeek out a few % points of braking efficiency by adding the back is missing the elephant in the room that the front does almost all of the work and the back can get in the way.
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Old 07-19-22, 08:28 AM
  #305  
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Much of the arguing here about emergency maneuvering techniques, such as hard braking, would disappear if everyone here had taken a bike skills class.

They teach this stuff.


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Old 07-19-22, 08:31 AM
  #306  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
No, never. Not even as a kid.

My only "over the bars" moment as a kid did not involve braking. It was when my front wheel suddenly stopped by hitting a fencepost at the edge of the road. I did a full flip and landed on my butt, unharmed. The front fork and frame were bent, but I was able to straighten them, because they were made of steel (and I worked after school and Saturdays in my parents' bike shop).

I suspect that most of these hard braking "over the bars" events are riders who don't adequately hold themselves back with their arms, and they tumble off the front of the bike (consider the force generated by an adult decelerating at around 0.6 g).

This is why the emergency braking method suggests using straight arms to push back against the bars.
Last time I went OTB from braking I was a teenager, it was embarrassing. I don't think you should say that its rare to go OTB from braking, its not something that happens to seasoned cyclists but they taught me how to brake as a kid with that very situation in mind. Someone earlier posted that they thought about this thread and on their ride were conscious of how they braked; they said they pulled the back slightly before the front. This is in line with how I was taught to brake, and as far as I know this was to prevent me from going over the bars.

The worry that going OTB from sudden front braking without the rear is the whole reason this argument is happening haha
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Old 07-19-22, 08:55 AM
  #307  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
So Lions you don't mind having to grab the front brake as hard as you can seemingly out of nowhere? 0-100 is an expression, in this case it means youre coasting down a hill caught up in your own thoughts, and all of the sudden you need to slam your brakes as hard as you can. My whole point here is that in this instance (super specific and unrelated to 99.9% of braking situations) the back brake does little to nothing to help you, and relying on it can hinder your ability to use the front to its full potential. This talk of how you can squeek out a few % points of braking efficiency by adding the back is missing the elephant in the room that the front does almost all of the work and the back can get in the way.

So you think we should drill on the 0.1% case? Nothing you write makes any sense. My main goals in a braking situation are to avoid the thing in front of me and to keep myself off of the ground, especially if that ground happens to be about to go under some other object. My bike is a hell of a lot ore controllable if I'm using both brakes in some sort of combination rather than slamming either one individually. You're the one basing his entire argument on a small % points decrease in stopping distance using the front brake only, not me.

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Old 07-19-22, 08:58 AM
  #308  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Much of the arguing here about emergency maneuvering techniques, such as hard braking, would disappear if everyone here had taken a bike skills class.

They teach this stuff.


Lots of self-appointed experts teach lots of screwy stuff.
If you have time to adjust your body position, you also likely have time to avoid the collision.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:09 AM
  #309  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Lots of self-appointed experts teach lots of screwy stuff.
It's standard advice. You are a nonexpert saying standard stuff is "screwy". Bizarre.

Originally Posted by livedarklions
If you have time to adjust your body position, you also likely have time to avoid the collision.
No, it doesn't take any more time than it does to squeeze the brakes.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-19-22 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:14 AM
  #310  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
So you think we should drill on the 0.1% case? .... You're the one basing his entire argument on a small % points decrease in stopping distance using the front brake only, not me.
I don't think you should, its not necessary, but if someone wanted to drill for the 0.1% case removing the back brake might help them. Personally, since I ride closely with others in a group I feel like its negligent to not practice specifically for that marginal decrease in stopping distance, but I wouldn't begrudge someone else I ride with for not doing the same.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:21 AM
  #311  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Lots of self-appointed experts teach lots of screwy stuff.
If you have time to adjust your body position, you also likely have time to avoid the collision.
Nonsense. It takes an instant to push back on the handlebars. Especially if it is a learned and practiced action.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:41 AM
  #312  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Nonsense. It takes an instant to push back on the handlebars. Especially if it is a learned and practiced action.
It takes an instant to swerve. That too is a learned and practiced action. It takes an instant to tap the rear brake along with the front brake. That too is a learned and practiced action.

I'm extremely skeptical of this "safety education" stuff. In general, I think the more you bike, the better your instinctive feel for what is going to work in a given unpredictable situation. I think playing out imaginary scenarios on a track or whatever is a waste of time at best, and possibly conditioning us to rely too much on one strategy at worst. We're not going to convince each other, so go ahead and have the last word. We've reached this impasse before, and I like most of your posts too much to want to get into an endless squabble with you.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:44 AM
  #313  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
I don't think you should, its not necessary, but if someone wanted to drill for the 0.1% case removing the back brake might help them. Personally, since I ride closely with others in a group I feel like its negligent to not practice specifically for that marginal decrease in stopping distance, but I wouldn't begrudge someone else I ride with for not doing the same.

But according to you, using the front brake only increases the chance you'll do an endo into the rider in front of you.
Your arguments are completely incoherent.
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Old 07-19-22, 09:51 AM
  #314  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
You can't avoid the rear becoming unweighted when stopping as fast as possible. Is called an "emergency" stop for a reason. If you find that you can't slam your front brake as hard as you can, don't trash me for suggesting practice. Obviously its better to avoid these situations
OMG, I'm agreeing with Larry. It's best to avoid these situations, and we should all ride defensively, but in the end, none of us control what others do. You can't spend your life living as if the worst case scenario is the most likely scenario. Life is full of car doors and hidden driveways and blind curves, and all you can do is balance exuberant living with caution.
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Old 07-19-22, 10:02 AM
  #315  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
Much of the arguing here about emergency maneuvering techniques, such as hard braking, would disappear if everyone here had taken a bike skills class.

They teach this stuff.


I know I said I was done, but I can't help myself. I did a google search on that image and it led to this page:
https://cyclingsavvy.org/2021/04/bic...and-cornering/

That page is very clear that the best strategy is to use both brakes equally while adopting this posture. So if you're citing this as authority, doesn't that completely undercut the "front brake only is best" argument?
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Old 07-19-22, 10:07 AM
  #316  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
That page is very clear that the best strategy is to use both brakes equally while adopting this posture. So if you're citing this as authority, doesn't that completely undercut the "front brake only is best" argument?
In at-the-limit braking, the rear brake doesn't do much (if anything). The link you reference isn't saying the rear brake is doing anything at the limit.

It repeats what @terrymorse keeps saying over and over again.

=>
  • The front brake is doing most (by far) of the stopping.
  • If you are braking at the limit (the fastest way to stop), it doesn't matter much what you do with the rear brake.
  • If you are braking below the limit, the rear brake will help to slow down.
  • Many people are reluctant to use the front brake enough.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-19-22 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 07-19-22, 10:27 AM
  #317  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
In at-the-limit braking, the rear brake doesn't do much (if anything). The link you reference isn't saying the rear brake is doing anything at the limit.

It repeats what @terrymorse keeps saying over and over again.

=>
  • The front brake is doing most (by far) of the stopping.
  • If you are braking at the limit (the fastest way to stop), it doesn't matter much what you do with the rear brake.
  • If you are braking below the limit, the rear brake will help to slow down.
  • Many people are reluctant to use the front brake enough.
This. There's a belief out there that touching your front brake will instantly catapult you over the bars. It's an article of faith to a lot of novice riders.
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Old 07-19-22, 10:41 AM
  #318  
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im telling yall just take off the back for a bit if youre interested in getting better at using the front. It worked for me. Lions might benefit
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Old 07-19-22, 10:58 AM
  #319  
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Originally Posted by genejockey
This. There's a belief out there that touching your front brake will instantly catapult you over the bars. It's an article of faith to a lot of novice riders.

OK, if all anyone is saying is that we need to use our front brakes in a fast stop, I really don't know anybody who doesn't know this. If you're meeting a lot of novices who think you don't use it at all, I'm surprised. I don't agree that the rear wheel is going to contribute no stopping power, especially if one is taking the braced position which is designed specifically to put more weight further back on the bike, which means that any unweighting is likely over in a split second.

I do think there's a problem with bracing the arms, though. That requires me to give up my possibly best last hope of finessing the bike around the obstacle, I think it's clear one has to make a choice instinctively in these situations and your conscious brain is probably only going to figure out what you did after the event is over. My instincts seem to be very focused on finesse, which I think I'm good at, rather than stopping power, which bikes generally are not very good for.
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Old 07-19-22, 11:02 AM
  #320  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz
im telling yall just take off the back for a bit if youre interested in getting better at using the front. It worked for me. Lions might benefit

Lions will not benefit, Lions' use of the front brake is just fine, and the idea is stupid. Repeating the stupid idea isn't making it any better.

People should not remove their rear brakes because some guy who broke his neck thinks it's a good training method.
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Old 07-19-22, 11:29 AM
  #321  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Lots of self-appointed experts teach lots of screwy stuff.
If you have time to adjust your body position, you also likely have time to avoid the collision.
depends on what you're possibly colliding with...
not all emergencies are collisions, some does work best with 'avoidance' tactics. You're window of decision is dependent on many things, including any possible anticipation and scanning.
bicycles, as of 'now', don;t have ABS, so your best shot depends on you.
... given current electronics tech, ABS would not be a big weight penalty... I'm certain it's being worked on... and already in the wings for that 'average' 20K dinars bike...
...But then we'll have the 'Bah Humbug' threads of old school rim/disc brakes - there is no 'upside' for BF... LOL!
Ride On
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Old 07-19-22, 11:45 AM
  #322  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
It takes an instant to swerve. That too is a learned and practiced action.
A valuable skill, which is why an emergency turn is also something taught in a bike skills class.

For good reason, as is not intuitive. When confronted with an oncoming hazard, an unskilled cyclist will steer away from the hazard.

This is the opposite of what should be done, which is to steer sharply towards the hazard.
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Old 07-19-22, 11:55 AM
  #323  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
A valuable skill, which is why an emergency turn is also something taught in a bike skills class.

For good reason, as is not intuitive. When confronted with an oncoming hazard, an unskilled cyclist will steer away from the hazard.

This is the opposite of what should be done, which is to steer sharply towards the hazard.
Oh, God, not the countersteering bit again!
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Old 07-19-22, 12:17 PM
  #324  
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I've been riding bikes for about 55 years, and riding seriously (and sometimes not so seriously ) for about twenty years, and have crashed several times. None of my crashes have been caused by the things you guys are arguing about. And of my friends who've crashed, I can't recall any incidents in which faster braking or swerving would've made a difference.

By all means, though, keep arguing about it.
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Old 07-19-22, 12:22 PM
  #325  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I've been riding bikes for about 55 years, and riding seriously (and sometimes not so seriously ) for about twenty years, and have crashed several times. None of my crashes have been caused by the things you guys are arguing about. And of my friends who've crashed, I can't recall any incidents in which faster braking or swerving would've made a difference.

By all means, though, keep arguing about it.
How about your friends who DIDN'T crash? Aren't they more relevant to this discussion?

Nobody's saying proper emergency braking technique would prevent all crashes. But it probably prevents some of them.
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