We want one lower gear. Anyone using 22T low chainring?
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 259
Bikes: 2000 Santana Sovereign SE; 2005 Co-Motion Speedster; Kona Kilauea with various dorky commuter accoutrements; Mercier Kilo TT fixie; Burley Fladbed trailer for groceries, bags of cement and the like.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times
in
41 Posts
We want one lower gear. Anyone using 22T low chainring?
Our drive train: 24/39/50 x 12-36 9-speed cassette with 700X35C tires, for about 18 gear inches on our Co-Mo Speedster. Shifting requires a little care, but it got us fully-loaded across America this summer without ever having to walk uphill.
But!
We kept wishing we had just one lower gear, especially through Appalachian climbs we barely made.
Our FSA Gossamer MegaExo cranks have a 130/74mm bcd spider, which won't take lower than a 24T.
Is anyone using a 22T granny gear on your tandem, and how?
-Any tandem crank with a 104/64mm or 110/58bcd spider and the same FSA external-bearing bottom bracket?
-Anyone switch to square-taper BB to get smaller spiders? (I see DaVinci and Middleburn have options with interchangeable spiders, but expensive.)
-Any other solutions you've found to get one lower gear combo? (Bigger big cassette cog, perhaps?)
But!
We kept wishing we had just one lower gear, especially through Appalachian climbs we barely made.
Our FSA Gossamer MegaExo cranks have a 130/74mm bcd spider, which won't take lower than a 24T.
Is anyone using a 22T granny gear on your tandem, and how?
-Any tandem crank with a 104/64mm or 110/58bcd spider and the same FSA external-bearing bottom bracket?
-Anyone switch to square-taper BB to get smaller spiders? (I see DaVinci and Middleburn have options with interchangeable spiders, but expensive.)
-Any other solutions you've found to get one lower gear combo? (Bigger big cassette cog, perhaps?)
#2
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,104
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,621 Times
in
927 Posts
Doing the math, you are already at 50 teeth of derailleur capacity. That's a lot. Off hand the most capable derailleur I can think of is Shimano XTR M-9000-SGS Shadow Plus. & it's capacity is 47. I'm sure that capacity can be found in lower tier models by now.
My point is findind a lower climbing gear is going to require a smaller crankset all the way around. Meaning a smaller big ring too. You will be trading the high end for more low.
Irrespective of mechanical considerations, at some point it becomes very difficult to get enough purchase with each pedal stroke to stay upright. On a lone mountain bike, my own personal limit is about 15 gear inches. At that point either the front wheel comes off the ground, the rear is limited by traction, or the bike is so slow balance becomes an issue...& you can rule out starting out in a gear that low. I can't imagine a loaded tandem would be any easier.
I think you are at about the limit of practicality with out dumping serious cash on a derailleured Rohloff type situation.
My point is findind a lower climbing gear is going to require a smaller crankset all the way around. Meaning a smaller big ring too. You will be trading the high end for more low.
Irrespective of mechanical considerations, at some point it becomes very difficult to get enough purchase with each pedal stroke to stay upright. On a lone mountain bike, my own personal limit is about 15 gear inches. At that point either the front wheel comes off the ground, the rear is limited by traction, or the bike is so slow balance becomes an issue...& you can rule out starting out in a gear that low. I can't imagine a loaded tandem would be any easier.
I think you are at about the limit of practicality with out dumping serious cash on a derailleured Rohloff type situation.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 612 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 387 Times
in
270 Posts
With 26" wheels my Rohloff gives me a 17" low gear. Rohloff doesn't recommend a gear ratio between front and rear of 2.5 to 1 for GVW above 100 kilos. I have a 50 tooth up front and a 20 tooth in the rear. A Schlumpf Mountain Drive might solve your problem. They are less expensive than a Rohloff or Pinion. You could have 727 percent range. Would a gear inch range of 15 to 110 work for you. The crank is an internal 2 speed. If this interests the OP than look into it. Cycle Monkey is a US importer for the Schlumpf cranks. Recumbent bicycle shops also may have them.
Last edited by Rick; 09-10-21 at 01:35 PM.
#4
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,104
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,621 Times
in
927 Posts
With 26" wheels my Rohloff gives me a 17" low gear. Rohloff doesn't recommend a gear ratio between front and rear of 2.5 to 1 for GVW above 100 kilos. I have a 50 tooth up front and a 20 tooth in the rear. A Schlumpf Mountain Drive might solve your problem. They are less expensive than a Rohloff or Pinion. You could have 727 percent range. Would a gear inch range of 15 to 110 work for you. The crank is an internal 2 speed. If this interests the OP than look into it. Cycle Monkey is a US importer for the Schlumpf cranks. Recumbent bicycle shops also may have them.
As far as Cycle Monkey is concerned, I have not had luck in any form of contacting them this past year. After many fruitless attempts both email & phone, eventually their voice mailbox said it was full & could not accept more messeges. My only guess is the covids caught up to them & they are no longer in business. Or, so far behind it doesn't even matter anymore.
An email to Haberstock Mobility directly got a prompt response & a new Speed-drive with crank arms Cycle Monkey doesn't even stock to my door within a week via DHL. (Silver, 172.5mm)
I wouldn't have any problem bypassing Cycle Monkey again on the future.
__________________
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#5
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 259
Bikes: 2000 Santana Sovereign SE; 2005 Co-Motion Speedster; Kona Kilauea with various dorky commuter accoutrements; Mercier Kilo TT fixie; Burley Fladbed trailer for groceries, bags of cement and the like.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times
in
41 Posts
Thanks for the response. All good points!
Sorry, I should have made clear: I know our current setup is totally illegal, but it works just fine for us. It has worked for 5,000 miles, including 3,800 miles across all the mountains between SF and Yorktown, Va.
Yep. My thought exactly. Hence my questions about smaller spiders and switching to square taper. I just want to make sure I'm considering all the options other people have tried before I buy a whole new crankset to get to, say, 22/32/44.
You're absolutely right, and by noting we rode it across country, I meant to indicate that we can handle our current low gear and think we can still handle one more. We were climbing at 3-4mph at 18.1 gear inches and balancing is more challenging, but we're never close to losing control.
You're absolutely right, and by noting we rode it across country, I meant to indicate that we can handle our current low gear and think we can still handle one more. We were climbing at 3-4mph at 18.1 gear inches and balancing is more challenging, but we're never close to losing control.
#6
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 259
Bikes: 2000 Santana Sovereign SE; 2005 Co-Motion Speedster; Kona Kilauea with various dorky commuter accoutrements; Mercier Kilo TT fixie; Burley Fladbed trailer for groceries, bags of cement and the like.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times
in
41 Posts
15-110 would be beyond my dreams! I was thinking of the 16.6-99.6 gear inches I would get with a 22/32/44 X 12-36 (vs. my current 18.1-113.2). I shall look into it.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 612 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 387 Times
in
270 Posts
15-110 would be beyond my dreams! I was thinking of the 16.6-99.6 gear inches I would get with a 22/32/44 X 12-36 (vs. my current 18.1-113.2). I shall look into it.
#8
Junior Member
Our drive train: 24/39/50 x 12-36 9-speed cassette with 700X35C tires, for about 18 gear inches on our Co-Mo Speedster. Shifting requires a little care, but it got us fully-loaded across America this summer without ever having to walk uphill.
But!
We kept wishing we had just one lower gear, especially through Appalachian climbs we barely made.
Our FSA Gossamer MegaExo cranks have a 130/74mm bcd spider, which won't take lower than a 24T.
Is anyone using a 22T granny gear on your tandem, and how?
-Any tandem crank with a 104/64mm or 110/58bcd spider and the same FSA external-bearing bottom bracket?
-Anyone switch to square-taper BB to get smaller spiders? (I see DaVinci and Middleburn have options with interchangeable spiders, but expensive.)
-Any other solutions you've found to get one lower gear combo? (Bigger big cassette cog, perhaps?)
But!
We kept wishing we had just one lower gear, especially through Appalachian climbs we barely made.
Our FSA Gossamer MegaExo cranks have a 130/74mm bcd spider, which won't take lower than a 24T.
Is anyone using a 22T granny gear on your tandem, and how?
-Any tandem crank with a 104/64mm or 110/58bcd spider and the same FSA external-bearing bottom bracket?
-Anyone switch to square-taper BB to get smaller spiders? (I see DaVinci and Middleburn have options with interchangeable spiders, but expensive.)
-Any other solutions you've found to get one lower gear combo? (Bigger big cassette cog, perhaps?)
You can achieve the same result of 22 in front by going with a 40 in back. For example with a SunRace CS-M980 9 Speed 11-40t or similar.
With the 11 in back you will also have more top end. In fact the 39-11 combo matches your current 50-14 combo.
So if you are willing to lose your topmost gear of 50-12, then you can just run the system as 2x9 and remove the 50 ring altogether.
Which is likely going to be required anyway since if you run 11-40 with 3 chainrings you will have exceeded all of the capacity ratings of the derailleur and it may shift horribly.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SFBay
Posts: 2,334
Bikes: n, I would like n+1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times
in
108 Posts
1. There's always a triplizer middle ring if one would survive on a tandem. Might even work with the current cranks set. Wouldn't be hard to get one made if not. I know a guy who could if you can't find one that survives on a tandem, assuming there's no other clearance issue.
2. We cheated by having a da Vinci tandem, so I just changed the middle ratio. Instead of a 34->17 in the middle it's 34->22. Add a (I think) 34 on the back with the 12 on the front and 26" wheels and we're at about 13 gear inches on the low end, and some days it feels like not enough with some of the hills around here. I wouldn't normally let a random pair of strangers ride our bike, but seeing as you've ridden a tandem more on one trip than I do in a year you're welcome to try it out if you want to see how that ratio feels. If your location is correct you also live within about 3 miles of me as the crow flies, so it wouldn't be hard to arrange.
2. We cheated by having a da Vinci tandem, so I just changed the middle ratio. Instead of a 34->17 in the middle it's 34->22. Add a (I think) 34 on the back with the 12 on the front and 26" wheels and we're at about 13 gear inches on the low end, and some days it feels like not enough with some of the hills around here. I wouldn't normally let a random pair of strangers ride our bike, but seeing as you've ridden a tandem more on one trip than I do in a year you're welcome to try it out if you want to see how that ratio feels. If your location is correct you also live within about 3 miles of me as the crow flies, so it wouldn't be hard to arrange.
#10
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 171
Bikes: Merlin Road, Rivendell Road, Arvon custom tandme, Hi-Light G-7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
10 Posts
TA makes craksets with inter-changeable spiders. Not sure if they make a tandem crankset but Peter White lists a 58mm granny diameter.
TACARSPI94x58B 94mm - 58mm Triple, Black, Smallest ring, 20 teeth
Talk to Peter (or maybe a British or French bike shop) and he should be able to tell youif such a beast exists.
I don't worry about the high gear much on a touring tandem. By the time you can go fast enough to use it, you might as well be coasting. I also don't like 11T cog because I can feel each tooth engaging. 12T is OK but I have yet to find 11S 12-42T Shimano cogset.
TACARSPI94x58B 94mm - 58mm Triple, Black, Smallest ring, 20 teeth
Talk to Peter (or maybe a British or French bike shop) and he should be able to tell youif such a beast exists.
I don't worry about the high gear much on a touring tandem. By the time you can go fast enough to use it, you might as well be coasting. I also don't like 11T cog because I can feel each tooth engaging. 12T is OK but I have yet to find 11S 12-42T Shimano cogset.
#11
Junior Member
#12
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 39 Times
in
24 Posts
I know it is likely out of bounds for this conversation. (ie, new bike) But, a DaVinci drivetrain has the ability to have a larger gear inch range. The intermediate shaft is usually geared 2:1 from the crank (though that can be modified) so your front cogs run 2x the speed and are smaller. (ie 13-20-29 on the cogs is the standard crank/chainring equivalent of 26/40/58) While there are some gearing tricks inherent in that setup, the range bonus becomes more apparent when talking about chain wrap. With the front cogs being half the size you use up less chain wrap allowing for a larger rear range. For example, a 24-50 standard crank is a 26 tooth chain wrap leaving you with only 21 teeth in the rear (ie 11-32) for the 'legal' 47 tooth chain wrap. But if you are running a 2:1 on the DaVinci the 24-50 becomes actual gears of 12-25, dropping your teeth differential to 13, allowing you 34 teeth in the rear. So you could have a 11-45 cog set.
Again, this is more hypothetical and really only talks to the gear inch RANGE that can be achieved. If you are stuck with a standard Tandem drivetrain then I would just take some teeth off the top end and move them to the low end if you need the low gear inches.
simon
Again, this is more hypothetical and really only talks to the gear inch RANGE that can be achieved. If you are stuck with a standard Tandem drivetrain then I would just take some teeth off the top end and move them to the low end if you need the low gear inches.
simon
#13
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,526
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3884 Post(s)
Liked 1,937 Times
in
1,382 Posts
We went down to a 24T granny and then put on an 11-40 cassette off Amazon. That's an easy fix for you. Had to use a Wolf Tooth (has to be the real Wolf Tooth) with an MTB RD as mentioned above, although ours is the old Shimano XTR RD-M952 9 Speed Long Cage Rear Derailleur which came on our Speedster. Ebay if you don't have one. This setup works very well. Though the gaps are larger than we'd like, it was an easy fix.
[Edit]: I hadn't seen the above comments about chain wrap when I wrote this. No, you won't be able to use any cog which any chainring, but (hilariously) you don't need to use every cog with every ring. We set ours up so that the 53/40 won't go, though only one link shy of that, so no damage if you screw up. The small cogs with the 24T are useless, and yep, they sure are. So you just shift a ring without doing the math in your head. We do use the 53 X 11. Nothing wrong with pedaling downhill, keeps the blood in the legs flowing.
Due to the amount of riding we do and hence chainring wear, and hence scarcity of original 9-speed rings, we changed the left brifter and FD to 10-speed and use the 10-speed 39T triple middle ring and the 10-speed 53T double outer ring. That solved our shifting problems. Only downside is that the 10-speed brifters use very small drums, which results in early cable failure on tandems, so we replace that cable every year before it breaks..
[Edit]: I hadn't seen the above comments about chain wrap when I wrote this. No, you won't be able to use any cog which any chainring, but (hilariously) you don't need to use every cog with every ring. We set ours up so that the 53/40 won't go, though only one link shy of that, so no damage if you screw up. The small cogs with the 24T are useless, and yep, they sure are. So you just shift a ring without doing the math in your head. We do use the 53 X 11. Nothing wrong with pedaling downhill, keeps the blood in the legs flowing.
Due to the amount of riding we do and hence chainring wear, and hence scarcity of original 9-speed rings, we changed the left brifter and FD to 10-speed and use the 10-speed 39T triple middle ring and the 10-speed 53T double outer ring. That solved our shifting problems. Only downside is that the 10-speed brifters use very small drums, which results in early cable failure on tandems, so we replace that cable every year before it breaks..
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 09-15-21 at 11:00 AM.
Likes For Carbonfiberboy:
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,464
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 955 Post(s)
Liked 1,619 Times
in
1,039 Posts
What I find most inspiring about this thread is the enthusiasm of working this problem. I really have no experience with Tandums but what fun tackling this need. Looks like you have plenty of chain, room, and available parts for a successful outcome. Fun, Fun, Fun...
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
#15
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 259
Bikes: 2000 Santana Sovereign SE; 2005 Co-Motion Speedster; Kona Kilauea with various dorky commuter accoutrements; Mercier Kilo TT fixie; Burley Fladbed trailer for groceries, bags of cement and the like.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 85 Times
in
41 Posts
We went down to a 24T granny and then put on an 11-40 cassette off Amazon. That's an easy fix for you. Had to use a Wolf Tooth (has to be the real Wolf Tooth) with an MTB RD as mentioned above, although ours is the old Shimano XTR RD-M952 9 Speed Long Cage Rear Derailleur which came on our Speedster.