View Poll Results: Which tire size?
700cx38c
2
40.00%
27.5"x2" or 2.4"
3
60.00%
Voters: 5. You may not vote on this poll
Which one, 700cx38c or 27.5"x2"
09-27-21, 09:38 AM
#1
we be rollin'
Thread Starter
Which one, 700cx38c or 27.5"x2"
So I saw a Youtube video by Cyclingabout who had a difficult time in mud and snow and had to turn around. I found it to be kind of sad that he had to turn around. He said he was going for 2.4" tires. But I was wondering which one would you choose, either 38c or 2" (or even 2.4")?
09-27-21, 11:01 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,173
Bikes: Surly Disk Trucker, 2014 w/Brooks Flyer Special saddle, Tubus racks - Duo front/Logo Evo rear, 2019 Dahon Mariner D8, Both bikes share Ortlieb Packer Plus series panniers, Garmin Edge 1000
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In an attempt to be respectful and shedding some knowledge, please don't take offense to this.
From your other poll thread and this one I think you need to analyze what kind of touring you are trying to do.
The 2 poll threads are asking for suggestions on gear choices. However, we don't have any clear understanding of your environment. Therefore, no one can give you an absolute suggestion that will parallel exactly with what you are trying to accomplish.
The idea of "bicycle touring" covers such a wide range of so many areas that pertain to "bicycling" that, even being a more narrow category than simply "bicycling", you can not cover all bases with 1 bike set up.
You are going to have to compromise somewhere somehow in what you are trying to do.
To be more specific on your tire choices:
I ride on 700c x38 tires, and have for years. My bike came with 38's stock in '14. I switched to 42's in '15 for a time. I destroyed one of them running over the front wheel (and had to replace the rim) some time I think around '16 so I went back to the original 38's and rode those until the Fall of '20 when I did my Ohio to Erie tour. I got a new set of 38's and kept one of the old ones as a spare.
From my experience - if you are touring on 95% roads or paved trail (not crushed gravel) then 38's are fine. For my regular riding 38's are good. For my Ohio to Erie tour they were adequate, however some of the trails I rode were crushed gravel. When dry they are OK to ride on, but when wet they can get mushy. That caused me to get off the trail and take a road detour for a few miles in an area. The narrower tires sunk too much in the trail and the resistance of pushing through the mush was too much for me to keep trying to plow through.
That experience isn't unique. I rode a few thousand miles (over a few years, not all at once) on a trail network that was mostly a mix of crushed gravel and dirt. When dry it was fine to ride with 38's, but that was why I went to the 42's. I wanted a lighter footprint with a wider tire.
If I were to ride on those types of trails more often - or I knew a tour was going to take me on them - personally I would prefer a tire in the upper 40's to mid 50's. That would be about 1.5-2.5", roughly.
Something to keep in mind is you can ride a wider tire on pavement, but trying to ride a narrower tire on soft ground doesn't work out too well.
I still have in the back of my mind the idea of building up a Surly ECR. It can clear pretty wide tires, I forget exactly how wide but I want to say it is up over 3". It would be possible to have different wheel sets with different tire sizes. That would give me the ability to have a nice wide tire for dirt and winter use, but also give me the ability to run a smaller tire for harder surfaces.
Personally, on the trips I've done that do include crushed gravel riding I would like to be at the 2" mark, or about 52mm. That would give me more confidence dealing with wet crushed gravel when loaded and needing to keep moving. The other tidbit with tires is the type of tread. When you get to wider tires the tread generally gets more aggressive as well. Aggressive tread isn't a good thing for touring and keeping the rolling resistance down. Tread favoring more of a street pattern will generally keep the rolling resistance down on hard surfaces (tire pressure has a lot to do with it - higher pressure = less resistance, as does rubber/composite compound used in the tire material).
All that said, I come back to the same point above - environments vary so widely trying to come up with a suggestion that will parallel your uses is very difficult. All any of us can do without knowing your environment is pull from our experience - which is what I tried to do here.
Best of luck to you!
Edit -
One last point on tires - you have to be careful of the width of tires for two main reasons:
- Clearance. The design of the fork and chain stays on your fame set will have a max tire width clearance. If you put fenders on the bike then that will also affect the clearance. Note that clearance is not just the "width" of the tire. The larger the "width" spec the larger the overall rolling diameter of the tire. So you not only have the width of the clearance to keep in mind - but how much clearance between the rolling surface of the tire to, say, the fenders or other frame members.
- Rim width. Rim width varies and tires have a spec range of rim widths that they work with. Narrow tires require a narrow rim, and wide tires require a wider rim. If you are going to experiment with tire sizes then you need to know your planned tire size range then pick a rim width that fits that range best.
As for the rim width - sometimes you can go a bit outside of the recommended range, but performance will degrade the further out of spec you get. That is why there is a spec range - the idea is to stay in that range.
From your other poll thread and this one I think you need to analyze what kind of touring you are trying to do.
The 2 poll threads are asking for suggestions on gear choices. However, we don't have any clear understanding of your environment. Therefore, no one can give you an absolute suggestion that will parallel exactly with what you are trying to accomplish.
The idea of "bicycle touring" covers such a wide range of so many areas that pertain to "bicycling" that, even being a more narrow category than simply "bicycling", you can not cover all bases with 1 bike set up.
You are going to have to compromise somewhere somehow in what you are trying to do.
To be more specific on your tire choices:
I ride on 700c x38 tires, and have for years. My bike came with 38's stock in '14. I switched to 42's in '15 for a time. I destroyed one of them running over the front wheel (and had to replace the rim) some time I think around '16 so I went back to the original 38's and rode those until the Fall of '20 when I did my Ohio to Erie tour. I got a new set of 38's and kept one of the old ones as a spare.
From my experience - if you are touring on 95% roads or paved trail (not crushed gravel) then 38's are fine. For my regular riding 38's are good. For my Ohio to Erie tour they were adequate, however some of the trails I rode were crushed gravel. When dry they are OK to ride on, but when wet they can get mushy. That caused me to get off the trail and take a road detour for a few miles in an area. The narrower tires sunk too much in the trail and the resistance of pushing through the mush was too much for me to keep trying to plow through.
That experience isn't unique. I rode a few thousand miles (over a few years, not all at once) on a trail network that was mostly a mix of crushed gravel and dirt. When dry it was fine to ride with 38's, but that was why I went to the 42's. I wanted a lighter footprint with a wider tire.
If I were to ride on those types of trails more often - or I knew a tour was going to take me on them - personally I would prefer a tire in the upper 40's to mid 50's. That would be about 1.5-2.5", roughly.
Something to keep in mind is you can ride a wider tire on pavement, but trying to ride a narrower tire on soft ground doesn't work out too well.
I still have in the back of my mind the idea of building up a Surly ECR. It can clear pretty wide tires, I forget exactly how wide but I want to say it is up over 3". It would be possible to have different wheel sets with different tire sizes. That would give me the ability to have a nice wide tire for dirt and winter use, but also give me the ability to run a smaller tire for harder surfaces.
Personally, on the trips I've done that do include crushed gravel riding I would like to be at the 2" mark, or about 52mm. That would give me more confidence dealing with wet crushed gravel when loaded and needing to keep moving. The other tidbit with tires is the type of tread. When you get to wider tires the tread generally gets more aggressive as well. Aggressive tread isn't a good thing for touring and keeping the rolling resistance down. Tread favoring more of a street pattern will generally keep the rolling resistance down on hard surfaces (tire pressure has a lot to do with it - higher pressure = less resistance, as does rubber/composite compound used in the tire material).
All that said, I come back to the same point above - environments vary so widely trying to come up with a suggestion that will parallel your uses is very difficult. All any of us can do without knowing your environment is pull from our experience - which is what I tried to do here.
Best of luck to you!
Edit -
One last point on tires - you have to be careful of the width of tires for two main reasons:
- Clearance. The design of the fork and chain stays on your fame set will have a max tire width clearance. If you put fenders on the bike then that will also affect the clearance. Note that clearance is not just the "width" of the tire. The larger the "width" spec the larger the overall rolling diameter of the tire. So you not only have the width of the clearance to keep in mind - but how much clearance between the rolling surface of the tire to, say, the fenders or other frame members.
- Rim width. Rim width varies and tires have a spec range of rim widths that they work with. Narrow tires require a narrow rim, and wide tires require a wider rim. If you are going to experiment with tire sizes then you need to know your planned tire size range then pick a rim width that fits that range best.
As for the rim width - sometimes you can go a bit outside of the recommended range, but performance will degrade the further out of spec you get. That is why there is a spec range - the idea is to stay in that range.
Last edited by KC8QVO; 09-27-21 at 11:06 AM.
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09-28-21, 07:14 AM
#3
Senior Member
Morning Mr pollster,
let's start with you telling us what tires you have ridden/toured on, with what surfaces, and with what load.
How you feel about each and what you think worked best for you.
tell us about your bike and what trips you are planning for this poll?
away don
let's start with you telling us what tires you have ridden/toured on, with what surfaces, and with what load.
How you feel about each and what you think worked best for you.
tell us about your bike and what trips you are planning for this poll?
away don
09-28-21, 09:00 AM
#4
we be rollin'
Thread Starter
My experiences are a bit varied. I haven't toured yet although in theory I have a "touring bike". It's not completed yet because of the pandemic although I've had thoughts lately of completing it. It has a Nashbar touring frame I kept in a box for years. The wheels are already completed although I had second thoughts about them. The wheels have Sun Rhyno Lite rims, DT Swiss spokes and nipples (with bees wax on the end of each spoke), Schwalbe plastic rim strips, Michelin tubes, Maxxis Overdrive Excel tires in 40c (measured at 38mm) and Shimano Deore LX hubs. I have Deore LX V-brakes and derailleurs, Ultegra bar-end shifters and Tektro brake levers and cross levers. Given the comments I've seen lately on the Internet I now wish I would have gone with Ryde rims and either Schwalbe Almotion tires or Schwalbe Land Cruiser. The bike with fenders though only had clearance for 38mm tires. I had to take off the Michelin Cross Max I had installed (marked 40c, measured at 42mm with my vernier caliper).
My cheap gravel bike has 38mm tires, my Alivio/Deore 26" mountain bike has 2" tires and my cheap hybrid has 35mm tires. To my surprise, 38mm tires seem adequate on a lot of surfaces. And I used 1.75" on my mountain bike where I did some tests on potholes going down hills. I was surprised at how well 1.75" can survive direct hits to potholes. I find 35mm to be the minimum to survive railroad tracks.
My concerns though are two-fold, first, you can't easily look at the ground for potholes at the same time as you're looking at traffic to assure you're safe. So I've hit some jarring potholes in the past which I found very shocking. Sometimes I felt close to having an accident because of the physical shocks I took. And second, some surfaces as described above can be challenging. So I prefer the idea of 2 inches (or more) anyway. I'm glad about the post above 2 inches being required for wet gravel. I also just read an article on singletracks with cool quotes I read saying people like 2.4" or 2.5" but also that although people like the speed of 29ers, 27.5" bikes are the ones considered more fun to ride. Since touring is more casual, I figure people would prefer 27.5". I also read an article about some testing Cannondale did with drop bar bikes with 650b wheels and larger tires (like around 2" can't recall). And they confirmed the same thing, they found them more fun to ride.
Then I read about the advantages of 650b wheels which sounds very appealing to me. They say it allows the use of larger tires without compromising frame geometry. It's not based on theory but based on facts.
I'm constantly annoyed on some rough surfaces on my hybrid with 35mm tires. This bike has front and rear racks and this is the bike I use for grocery shopping. I've had a few 4 liter water bottles on there plus more groceries which meant sometimes on very rough roads I felt like going 1 mp/h. Not very fun!
Lately I'm leaning on the side of buying a 650b hybrid (like the Norco Indie already has 2" tires and I measured it inside a store with a piece of cardboard. I confirmed it has clearance for slick 2.4" tires (even though clearance at the chainstay wasn't quite 6mm each side, maybe something like 3mm). A lot of hybrids have basic components hence the poll on touring on cheap bikes. Although given my personality, I know I would modify the bike anyway. I was just wondering what minimum mods I could get away with.
09-28-21, 09:19 AM
#5
Senior Member
Well, at least you know what you're comfortable with and not in real life riding. Don't overthink it, or do if you want, but 38s are very competent for potential varying surfaces and help a lot if you have bike handling concerns with potholes etc.
I find 38s to be a very good compromise of efficiency and easier with potholes.
Going wider, up to 2inch is fine also, but your hashbar frame won't do it, so run what you brung and try what you've got, seems to me you're over analyzing this stuff too much.
as for 2.4 etc, it's a whole other level of weight and rolling resistance, and it doesn't sound like realistically you're going to be on surfaces that need it.
but hey, you gotta decide on your own. Good luck, it sounds like you have a good base of bikes to start with and see how you feel doing real world actual riding.
I find 38s to be a very good compromise of efficiency and easier with potholes.
Going wider, up to 2inch is fine also, but your hashbar frame won't do it, so run what you brung and try what you've got, seems to me you're over analyzing this stuff too much.
as for 2.4 etc, it's a whole other level of weight and rolling resistance, and it doesn't sound like realistically you're going to be on surfaces that need it.
but hey, you gotta decide on your own. Good luck, it sounds like you have a good base of bikes to start with and see how you feel doing real world actual riding.
09-28-21, 09:55 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,173
Bikes: Surly Disk Trucker, 2014 w/Brooks Flyer Special saddle, Tubus racks - Duo front/Logo Evo rear, 2019 Dahon Mariner D8, Both bikes share Ortlieb Packer Plus series panniers, Garmin Edge 1000
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hybridbkrdr I say take what bike you can ride on a couple shorter 2-3 day tours and see how it works.
If you are wanting to tour on varied surfaces then what I wrote above fits pretty well with what you're up against. So in a bike build to what you're doing the theory would work pretty well for you.
Again, you can always go narrower with tires, but you can't go the other way - with respect to frame/fork/fender tire clearances.
If you are going to try swapping around wheel/tire sizes then disk brakes are a must. If you have rim brakes you have too much more to work through on set up.
As far as 650b, 700c, 27.5", 29", 29'er -
First and foremost is YOUR size. Inseam and reach are two important numbers. Once you know this then you can work on frame set sizing. That will dictate wheel size. Some wheel sizes might be too big for you (or anyone else reading trying to get ideas). What I mean by this is not specifically that "the wheels" are too big, but the frame set that utilizes that wheel size. If you have a 70cm inseam you're probably not going to be riding any of these wheel sizes, perhaps 650b - unless you got a custom made bike.
Second - if you want to build 1 bike and experiment with tires/wheel sets - you need to know the rolling diameter of the tires you plan to use. It is tricky to swap wheel sets because if you go to a smaller rolling diameter tire you can run in to pedal strike - where your pedals get down to hitting the ground in a turn.
Third - as for "performance" - a "touring bike" is not a "racing bike". My personal opinion is to scratch "performance" entirely - as in the perspective of fun, maneuverability, racing, down-hill mountain biking, and zooming through single track. Those are the opposite of "loaded touring" and have no bearing, again - personal perspective here, on what would be important to me.
Can a "touring bike" be a "fun bike"? Absolutely. However, it is a lot harder to go back the other way. If you have a "fun bike" that isn't set up for touring it is harder (not impossible) to tour on it.
I can tell from where you are coming from with your last post that you're like I am - you like thinking outside the box and don't want to be confined with "one thing". Thats cool - I'm glad I'm not the only one in that boat. You mention you like modifying things. I would be cautious with using that phrase - "modify". The reason being is there are a ton of options with bike set ups. I don't consider unique set ups "modifications", per se. That is one thing that fascinates me about cycling, in general, and this forum - I enjoy seeing others' set ups (see post #2 of this thread for one example - not sure if this will take you straight to it or the full thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/22214401-post2.html).
I spent a long time with bike fitment when I started riding. I was on the edge of even getting a 700c version of the LHT (mine is the Disk Trucker) to fit. Some times I think I would have been better with the next size smaller frame, which would have dropped me to a 26" wheel. The top tube is a bit high for me, and I don't have much room to adjust the seat (it is down very close to the bottom, but not bottomed out entirely). That can make it a challenge to get my legs over the top tube to get on and off if I'm really worn out and sore. Other than that, I worked with handlebar height, seat fore/aft, etc to tune the fitment. I can tell you for absolute certainty that after 50-60 miles the fitment of the bike makes a massive difference.
The take-away from the above is - keep your body in the loop on what you are considering. You need to make sure you're starting with a frame set that fits you. Then as you continue you need to dial in the tweaks to get to that "fits perfect" ride. It will help you a ton in multi-day touring where you are riding for days back to back at a time. A poorly fitting/set up bike is no picnic after 3 days on tour.
With that having been said - I want to tie this all back to the theory of the wheel sizes and frame sets that can handle them. If you go through the process to get the bike fit "perfect" it does make sense to have one platform that you can swap wheels/tires on depending on conditions. Changing wheels doesn't change how your bike fits you.
Yes, having 1 platform limits you in other ways - like a bike more tuned to running off-road should have wide handlebars so you can maintain steering control in rough ground, whereas road riding a narrow set of drop bars might be suitable, and there is everything in between. So you are going to have compromises in places. However, there is absolutely no compromise worth putting your bike fitment in jeopardy. A great fit with your bike on tour will trump nearly every other potential compromise. If you are sore - your rear end, back, neck, forearms, etc - and "done for" when you stop on day 1 and don't recuperate overnight how are you going to perform on day 2? Day 7?
As for potholes - a wise bike tourer once said "you should avoid pot holes". I know, sometimes they come up. You don't just have to worry about "tires" in being able to handle them. Rims, spokes, and axles all are subject to problems. Yes, the larger the tire the more cushion you get. However, there is a balance. The larger the tire the more rolling resistance, in general (especially if you drop the pressure).
I hit a few potholes on my Ohio to Erie trip last fall - with, just a guess, about 200lbs of gear on the bike. I never broke anything. Usually they were holes in the trails that I couldn't avoid (squirrel or rabbit holes in gravel trails, etc).
If you are going to build your own wheels (if you are mechanically inclined I say go for it - it is a great experience and I will say I enjoyed the process building one in the past) - you don't want your spokes banjo string tight. The tighter the spokes are the less wiggle room there is for absorbing impacts. Looser spokes loose trueness (rim will wobble) quicker (another reason for disk brakes), but they will take much more impact before popping. That is a big asset on tour.
Hope this helps. Have fun!
If you are wanting to tour on varied surfaces then what I wrote above fits pretty well with what you're up against. So in a bike build to what you're doing the theory would work pretty well for you.
Again, you can always go narrower with tires, but you can't go the other way - with respect to frame/fork/fender tire clearances.
If you are going to try swapping around wheel/tire sizes then disk brakes are a must. If you have rim brakes you have too much more to work through on set up.
As far as 650b, 700c, 27.5", 29", 29'er -
First and foremost is YOUR size. Inseam and reach are two important numbers. Once you know this then you can work on frame set sizing. That will dictate wheel size. Some wheel sizes might be too big for you (or anyone else reading trying to get ideas). What I mean by this is not specifically that "the wheels" are too big, but the frame set that utilizes that wheel size. If you have a 70cm inseam you're probably not going to be riding any of these wheel sizes, perhaps 650b - unless you got a custom made bike.
Second - if you want to build 1 bike and experiment with tires/wheel sets - you need to know the rolling diameter of the tires you plan to use. It is tricky to swap wheel sets because if you go to a smaller rolling diameter tire you can run in to pedal strike - where your pedals get down to hitting the ground in a turn.
Third - as for "performance" - a "touring bike" is not a "racing bike". My personal opinion is to scratch "performance" entirely - as in the perspective of fun, maneuverability, racing, down-hill mountain biking, and zooming through single track. Those are the opposite of "loaded touring" and have no bearing, again - personal perspective here, on what would be important to me.
Can a "touring bike" be a "fun bike"? Absolutely. However, it is a lot harder to go back the other way. If you have a "fun bike" that isn't set up for touring it is harder (not impossible) to tour on it.
I can tell from where you are coming from with your last post that you're like I am - you like thinking outside the box and don't want to be confined with "one thing". Thats cool - I'm glad I'm not the only one in that boat. You mention you like modifying things. I would be cautious with using that phrase - "modify". The reason being is there are a ton of options with bike set ups. I don't consider unique set ups "modifications", per se. That is one thing that fascinates me about cycling, in general, and this forum - I enjoy seeing others' set ups (see post #2 of this thread for one example - not sure if this will take you straight to it or the full thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/22214401-post2.html).
I spent a long time with bike fitment when I started riding. I was on the edge of even getting a 700c version of the LHT (mine is the Disk Trucker) to fit. Some times I think I would have been better with the next size smaller frame, which would have dropped me to a 26" wheel. The top tube is a bit high for me, and I don't have much room to adjust the seat (it is down very close to the bottom, but not bottomed out entirely). That can make it a challenge to get my legs over the top tube to get on and off if I'm really worn out and sore. Other than that, I worked with handlebar height, seat fore/aft, etc to tune the fitment. I can tell you for absolute certainty that after 50-60 miles the fitment of the bike makes a massive difference.
The take-away from the above is - keep your body in the loop on what you are considering. You need to make sure you're starting with a frame set that fits you. Then as you continue you need to dial in the tweaks to get to that "fits perfect" ride. It will help you a ton in multi-day touring where you are riding for days back to back at a time. A poorly fitting/set up bike is no picnic after 3 days on tour.
With that having been said - I want to tie this all back to the theory of the wheel sizes and frame sets that can handle them. If you go through the process to get the bike fit "perfect" it does make sense to have one platform that you can swap wheels/tires on depending on conditions. Changing wheels doesn't change how your bike fits you.
Yes, having 1 platform limits you in other ways - like a bike more tuned to running off-road should have wide handlebars so you can maintain steering control in rough ground, whereas road riding a narrow set of drop bars might be suitable, and there is everything in between. So you are going to have compromises in places. However, there is absolutely no compromise worth putting your bike fitment in jeopardy. A great fit with your bike on tour will trump nearly every other potential compromise. If you are sore - your rear end, back, neck, forearms, etc - and "done for" when you stop on day 1 and don't recuperate overnight how are you going to perform on day 2? Day 7?
As for potholes - a wise bike tourer once said "you should avoid pot holes". I know, sometimes they come up. You don't just have to worry about "tires" in being able to handle them. Rims, spokes, and axles all are subject to problems. Yes, the larger the tire the more cushion you get. However, there is a balance. The larger the tire the more rolling resistance, in general (especially if you drop the pressure).
I hit a few potholes on my Ohio to Erie trip last fall - with, just a guess, about 200lbs of gear on the bike. I never broke anything. Usually they were holes in the trails that I couldn't avoid (squirrel or rabbit holes in gravel trails, etc).
If you are going to build your own wheels (if you are mechanically inclined I say go for it - it is a great experience and I will say I enjoyed the process building one in the past) - you don't want your spokes banjo string tight. The tighter the spokes are the less wiggle room there is for absorbing impacts. Looser spokes loose trueness (rim will wobble) quicker (another reason for disk brakes), but they will take much more impact before popping. That is a big asset on tour.
Hope this helps. Have fun!
