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"Those Bicyclists Blow Right Through Red Lights!"

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"Those Bicyclists Blow Right Through Red Lights!"

Old 06-22-16, 05:51 AM
  #701  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
Settlement means that the police will continue to ticket cyclist under the same law with no real difference from FRAP without exceptions. It means no new case law that would help to protect cyclist against these cops and that law. No surprise that other states wish to change the laws to eliminate the FRAP exemptions, must of gotten large support from motorist and cops in a hurry and believe cyclist do not belong.
Uh, no. No. And no.

Settlement means the harassment stopped. The *real* differences with FRAP (with or without exceptions) is covered below.

The federal judge *ALREADY* cleared up that we don't have FRAP laws, and the circumstances that require a cyclist to ride right ARE VERY VERY LIMITED. (Helpful hint - they are the same VERY VERY LIMITED circumstances that require a motorist to drive right.)

And it was people on bicycles who pushed for the changes to Pennsylvania laws, not motorists.

Originally Posted by CB HI
Why do you insist the "give way to the right" law is better than FRAP with exceptions. Especially when it is enforced as a must stay right, or you WILL be ticketed law.
It's simple - Massachusetts bicycle law >>> Hawaii bicycle law. And Massachusetts law is neither interpreted in your twisted way nor enforced as in your nightmares.

Originally Posted by CB HI
You seem proud of what Eli had to go through just to get a settlement.
What the ?

I'm appalled that Eli had to go through that.

With FRAP exceptions, I have at least convinced cops in several states that my riding was legal and it would be wrong of them to write a ticket. Seems FRAP with exceptions has worked better for me in several states than your law with no exceptions.
Without FRAP, I don't even get pulled over by law enforcement - at all.


Simple thought experiment. You know, abstract. But a *real* *world* *example*.

A local road has just been paved (with gold of course). It's a dream road. Perfectly safe, edge to edge. There's not even parking along this road. A long, straight, stretch of beautiful pavement. No intersections for a long stretch, not even driveways. It's a 30 mph road, we are riding 20 mph. We are riding straight ahead.

BUT, it's got a narrow bike lane marked on it.

In Hawaii, *we* have to ride in that bike lane.
In Massachusetts, *we* can ride anywhere on that road, but motorists *can't* drive anywhere on that rode.

In Hawaii, *we* have to ride single file.
In Massachusetts, *we* can ride side by side (just like motorcyclists can), anywhere on that road.
(Almost - left as an exercise to the reader of what we, and motorcyclists, *can't* do while riding side by side.)

Tell me again that FRAP with exceptions is better?

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-22-16 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 06-22-16, 06:53 AM
  #702  
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Originally Posted by Equinox
I'm out on Sunday morning at 8am. I approach a 4-lane 55mph road with a red light. I have unlimited views in either direction. I blow through without slowing down. No problem whatsoever. Same with stop signs.
So you'd be ok with a car doing the same thing?
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Old 06-22-16, 07:00 AM
  #703  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg
Totally disagree with everything you have said. I've seen it. Here in Michigan if riding in/ on the road you are treated like any other vehicle which means you observe the same rules of the road. Stop means stop whether you feel it's stupid or not. Your just reinforcing the negative view drivers have of cyclists.
+ 1,000,000, etc
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Old 06-22-16, 07:07 AM
  #704  
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Where do we go to say, "The new format sucks!!!"
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Old 06-22-16, 07:13 AM
  #705  
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I ride bicycle in my country daily. I am one of very few riders and that is for the reason.

In last +25 years every intervention on the road planing ,construction and development is made with no regards for pedestrian or bicyclist or even worst its made against any other mode of transport.

For instance to avoid busy highways I need to go about 3-4 km longer (11km against 15 km) thru very bad surfaced roads and thru numerous left turns , stop sings and lights and on very unfriendly hills for a bike at least.

I don't think i am second class citizen here ,it would be much better if i am. I am lower on scale if my position on it eve exist.

At same time even on this minor roads I use I get in danger and hazardous situation every f. day and its not because my riding.

And guess what I blow every light and stop sign every time I can.
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Old 06-22-16, 08:09 AM
  #706  
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Originally Posted by jtuds
So you'd be ok with a car doing the same thing?
I see it every day. Does not bother me one bit.

Originally Posted by lostarchitect
Some people do not have the capacity for abstract thought.
This explains a lot. Not just here on BF, but everywhere. I always wondered why many (if not most) people are so willing to toe-the-line for religious dogma designed to exploit the masses, and traffic laws designed for motorized vehicles. If they don't have the capacity for abstract thought, then they NEED someone else directing them. Makes perfect sense. Glad I found this out. Another of the world's mysteries solved on the Internet!

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Old 06-22-16, 10:11 AM
  #707  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
\Another of the world's mysteries solved on the Internet!
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Old 06-22-16, 10:16 AM
  #708  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
In Hawaii, *we* have to ride in that bike lane.
In Massachusetts, *we* can ride anywhere on that road, but motorists *can't* drive anywhere on that rode.

In Hawaii, *we* have to ride single file.
In Massachusetts, *we* can ride side by side (just like motorcyclists can), anywhere on that road.
(Almost - left as an exercise to the reader of what we, and motorcyclists, *can't* do while riding side by side.)

Tell me again that FRAP with exceptions is better?

-mr. bill
I am sure that in Massachusetts cyclists exercising their right to cruise in the travel lane, ignoring the perfectly serviceable bike lane next to them, have been rear ended by an irate mouthbreather in an F150 who was having none of it, law or no law. Tell me again that misguided entitlement is better. The differences between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive only become apparent when wheels lose traction (oops) and life suddenly starts to get very interesting. In less than one second you will know which one is 'better' no matter what your hotly held opinions on the matter might have been before...
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Old 06-22-16, 10:20 AM
  #709  
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Originally Posted by jtuds
So you'd be ok with a car doing the same thing?
No actually, I would not. So much so, that, when I am driving a car I never do such a thing. Why is it so hard to hold two different realities and responsibilities simultaneously? Are you a Hamster?
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Old 06-22-16, 11:13 AM
  #710  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I am sure that in Massachusetts cyclists exercising their right to cruise in the travel lane, ignoring the perfectly serviceable bike lane next to them, have been rear ended by an irate mouthbreather in an F150 who was having none of it, law or no law. Tell me again that misguided entitlement is better. The differences between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive only become apparent when wheels lose traction (oops) and life suddenly starts to get very interesting. In less than one second you will know which one is 'better' no matter what your hotly held opinions on the matter might have been before...
The thing is, irate, ignorant and/or distracted people in cars and trucks have hit people on bicycles, laws or no laws, bike lanes or not, everywhere.

"Misguided entitlement" - that's rich. What entitles *you* to choose which laws don't apply to *you*?

(I am wondering if Joey really does ignore the traffic lights when he drives on Chef Menteur Highway.)


I know holding rights *and* responsibilities simultaneously is hard for some, but it is not only quite possible to ride OUTSIDE of a bike lane *AND* be courteous, it's common.






-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-22-16 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 06-22-16, 12:24 PM
  #711  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
It's simple - Massachusetts bicycle law >>> Hawaii bicycle law. And Massachusetts law is neither interpreted in your twisted way nor enforced as in your nightmares.
And yet cops in Massachusetts ticket Eli and other cyclist for not riding far to the right, contrary to your claim.

Originally Posted by mr_bill
In Hawaii, *we* have to ride in that bike lane.
-mr. bill
True, Hawaii has a terrible bike lane law. Cops do not ticket us or even warn us for not riding in the bike lane. So clearly *we* do not have to ride in that bike lane.

We also have a no blue lights law. I always use a blue blinky in addition to my red blinky at night. Cops here could care less. I would love to see what your cops would do if you used a blue blinky.

In CO, WY and many other states, I open carry when cycling. What would your cops do if you open carry?

Not sure why you think this discussion is a competition between states. I am only trying to discuss different points in different laws and how cops enforce them. Nothing to do with your hurt misguided state pride.

Originally Posted by mr_bill
In Hawaii, *we* have to ride single file.
-mr. bill
In Hawaii, cyclist ride double file all the time. Cops do not ticket us. But in Hawaii, when a cyclist wishes to ride on a shoulder they may do so legally. In Massachusetts, it is illegal to ride on the shoulder, but at least you are not ticketed for it. See how nicely that works.

So why are you up in arms about laws not enforced in Hawaii, when cops in Massachusetts enforce the FRAP law you do not have?
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Old 06-22-16, 12:31 PM
  #712  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
The differences between front wheel drive and rear wheel drive only become apparent when wheels lose traction (oops) and life suddenly starts to get very interesting. In less than one second you will know which one is 'better' no matter what your hotly held opinions on the matter might have been before...
It is especially fun watching motorist put snow chains on the wrong set of wheels.
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Old 06-22-16, 12:50 PM
  #713  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
(I am wondering if Joey really does ignore the traffic lights when he drives on Chef Menteur Highway.) -mr. bill
Unless the pole holding the traffic light is leaning over the road (likely from being hit by a drunk driver) and about to fall, I just look for traffic. I don't need a light to tell me it is clear in both directions. I have eyes. I look both ways even if the light is green. Makes no difference.

In a car I stop at all red lights and LOOK BOTH WAYS before blasting through a green light, anywhere, anytime.
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Old 06-23-16, 06:38 AM
  #714  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
And yet cops in Massachusetts ticket Eli and other cyclist for not riding far to the right, contrary to your claim.
Half-a-dozen law enforcement officers in two towns, one town settled and stopped the harassment, the other town "just" stopped the harassment.
PAST TENSE.

True, Hawaii has a terrible bike lane law. Cops do not ticket us or even warn us for not riding in the bike lane. So clearly *we* do not have to ride in that bike lane.
Uh, Joey? Cops don't ticket Joey-style riding in NOLA either. (Traffic control devices ignored, what do you mean trolley right of way, salmoning, near as I can tell pretty much the only law Joey follows is lighting.) "We" won't be riding your way. I will ride my way - legally, you'll ride your way - illegally. I won't get a ticket - you might. See how well that works?

We also have a no blue lights law. I always use a blue blinky in addition to my red blinky at night. Cops here could care less. I would love to see what your cops would do if you used a blue blinky.
I think blue blinky lights on bicycles are stupid, I've never seen one around here. You and FBinNY like them, both your states forbid them. For what it's worth, in Massachusetts, Section 7E applies to *MOTOR* *VEHICLES*.

In CO, WY and many other states, I open carry when cycling. What would your cops do if you open carry?
In Massachusetts, "PART THE FIRST Article XVII. The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence [not sic]."
(British English variant , we have the oldest Constitution in the world, ratified 236 years ago this week, even if was later illegally amended.)

Which has *NOTHING* to do with bicycles.

Not sure why you think this discussion is a competition between states. I am only trying to discuss different points in different laws and how cops enforce them. Nothing to do with your hurt misguided state pride.
You might want to read up on what law enforcement officers are taught about bike law in Massachusetts. Or not, since if you did you couldn't keep "discussing" your "different points" - over and over and over again.

In Hawaii, cyclist ride double file all the time. Cops do not ticket us. But in Hawaii, when a cyclist wishes to ride on a shoulder they may do so legally. In Massachusetts, it is illegal to ride on the shoulder, but at least you are not ticketed for it. See how nicely that works.
Again, you might want to review your laws and training material.

FWIW, it is *not* illegal to ride on the shoulder in Massachusetts.

So why are you up in arms about laws not enforced in Hawaii, when cops in Massachusetts enforce the FRAP law you do not have?
Again, you might want to read up on what law enforcement officers are taught about bike law in Massachusetts. Or not, since if you did you couldn't keep falsely repeating this claim, over and over and over again.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 06-23-16 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 06-23-16, 09:26 AM
  #715  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
I think blue blinky lights on bicycles are stupid, I've never seen one around here. You and FBinNY like them, both your states forbid them. For what it's worth, in Massachusetts, Section 7E applies to *MOTOR* *VEHICLES*.
I prefer an amber tail light that looks like a pothole marker from a distance. I have never found one designed as a tail light that is as bright as my Dinotte red light. Dinotte makes an amber front light....go figure. I want my amber tail light visible day and night. Also, an amber AND a red combo is excellent - looks like an emergency vehicle but not a cop. If a motorist sees a pothole flasher a mile ahead they consciously begin thinking about moving to the left far in advance. I like that.

I would not run a blue light for many reasons. If I look like a cop, someone in trouble might approach me for help followed by the trouble maker. But I don't think the cops would approve of blue flashers anyway. I am NOT trying to attract NOPD attention.

As for firearm carry in NOLA. Police and everyone else just ASSUME everybody is armed. It's the status-quo. Get pulled over for speeding, first thing asked is "Is there a firearm in the vehicle?" It would be unwise to lie, and silly, because the cop is only interested in his safety and NOT your firearm UNLESS you happen to be a felon. In which case, I guess lying would better.
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Old 06-23-16, 12:15 PM
  #716  
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Poor mr. bill thinks he knows of every cyclist in Massachusetts who has been ticketed.
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Old 06-23-16, 12:40 PM
  #717  
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Poor CB_HI thinks that he knows every cyclist in Hawaii who has been ticketed.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-23-16, 02:29 PM
  #718  
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Originally Posted by jtuds
So you'd be ok with a car doing the same thing?
I do not care who breaks traffic law as long as in doing so they aren't being dangerous or discourteous. Why should it matter to me?
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Old 06-23-16, 04:39 PM
  #719  
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OK I gotta step in here for a second... So the original discussion was "cyclists blowing through red lights..."

Now it's gone around to FRAP and shoulder use and my state vrs your state...

Are cyclists still blowing through red lights somewhere?
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Old 06-23-16, 05:07 PM
  #720  
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Originally Posted by genec
Are cyclists still blowing through red lights somewhere?
Probably, and on A&S there a few new (to A&S) posters blowing fresh smoke and hot air about "the culture."
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Old 06-23-16, 05:56 PM
  #721  
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Originally Posted by genec
OK I gotta step in here for a second... So the original discussion was "cyclists blowing through red lights..."

Now it's gone around to FRAP and shoulder use and my state vrs your state...

Are cyclists still blowing through red lights somewhere?
Oh be quite, your state is the one that started the FRAP crap and motorist running red lights under the title of "right turn on red".

I still do not know why mr. bill thinks that I think Hawaii has better bicycle laws. We just have cops that do not go out of their way to ticket us for BS laws.
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Old 06-24-16, 06:38 AM
  #722  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
I still do not know why mr. bill thinks that I think Hawaii has better bicycle laws. We just have cops that do not go out of their way to ticket us for BS laws.
I don't think you think.

-mr. bill
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Old 06-24-16, 06:44 AM
  #723  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I prefer an amber tail light that looks like a pothole marker from a distance. I have never found one designed as a tail light that is as bright as my Dinotte red light. Dinotte makes an amber front light....go figure. I want my amber tail light visible day and night. Also, an amber AND a red combo is excellent - looks like an emergency vehicle but not a cop. If a motorist sees a pothole flasher a mile ahead they consciously begin thinking about moving to the left far in advance. I like that.

I would not run a blue light for many reasons. If I look like a cop, someone in trouble might approach me for help followed by the trouble maker. But I don't think the cops would approve of blue flashers anyway. I am NOT trying to attract NOPD attention.

As for firearm carry in NOLA. Police and everyone else just ASSUME everybody is armed. It's the status-quo. Get pulled over for speeding, first thing asked is "Is there a firearm in the vehicle?" It would be unwise to lie, and silly, because the cop is only interested in his safety and NOT your firearm UNLESS you happen to be a felon. In which case, I guess lying would better.
I ride with a large amber strobe on my saddle bag and two reds: one secured to the back of my helmet and the other, halfway down the frame bar leading to the rear axle mount. I love that combination too.

Here's my strobe:
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Old 06-24-16, 06:51 PM
  #724  
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Originally Posted by baron von trail
I ride with a large amber strobe on my saddle bag and two reds: one secured to the back of my helmet and the other, halfway down the frame bar leading to the rear axle mount. I love that combination too.



Here's my strobe:
Who makes that amber light?
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Old 06-26-16, 11:33 PM
  #725  
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Wow.

Wow. I go on a short vacation and my inbox has a thread update with 3000 pages of nonsense about champ cars and frapachino law.

Unless it's clearly unsafe, I ride in lane, with traffic. Shoulders have debris, sometimes huge chasms or washouts, then in many places there simply is no shoulder, or it eventually turns into a right turn lane which is super bad unsafe stuff. I'm better off following the flow of traffic, following all the rules plus being super aware of my situation & surroundings.

If you wanna take the lane, do it. Just be strategic.... not suicidal. Also, running red lights is a super awesome way to win a free flight (down onto the road), and a free trip (to the hospital). I don't care what your excuse is RED means STOP.

- Andy
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