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New Dura Ace R9200 announcement on GCN

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New Dura Ace R9200 announcement on GCN

Old 09-02-21, 08:17 AM
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Aside from Microsoft, there's also Sensah, whose action mimics double-tap (and has been available in 12spd for some time) or LTWOO where the shifting resembles Campagnolo with a thumb button for down shifts. As for licensing, the patents mostly expired years ago so they're free game to copy.
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Old 09-02-21, 08:21 AM
  #77  
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I'm certainly no luddite but I maintain that something like a Claris groupset and rim brakes are just fine for a good majority of cyclists. I use them myself and definitely don't feel inadequate compared to anyone else. I'm sure pricing will become more reasonable over time, just like with stuff like power meters, but my worry is that cycling trends as of late (even without the issues related to the pandemic) are pushing prices up (as opposed to down lol). Certainly flies in the face of trying to make cycling more inclusive and diverse if parts/full bikes continue to be mainly developed and targeted to higher SES demographics
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Old 09-02-21, 08:23 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149
Aside from Microsoft, there's also Sensah, whose action mimics double-tap (and has been available in 12spd for some time) or LTWOO where the shifting resembles Campagnolo with a thumb button for down shifts. As for licensing, the patents mostly expired years ago so they're free game to copy.
I am far from even literate when it comes to copyright law. I have heard '20 years' all my life so thats what I assume. Shimano started internal cables 13ish years ago, so then their patents limit others from using the same design for another 7ish years, right? And SRAM introduced their drop bar tech 15ish years ago, so its another 5ish years for them.

^that may all be totally wrong, I fully admit.
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Old 09-02-21, 10:01 AM
  #79  
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Yeah, I'm not up with the finer points of patent law either but I guess the Chinese brands have either used expired patents or made a work-around. But perhaps the big S brands have realized that once the Chinese brands make a workable budget groupset (and it seems they are close) then the bike manufacturers will spec them, like they did with the original Grip-shift. So perhaps the move to electronic is a way to stay away from a price war as cable components become commodities.
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Old 09-02-21, 10:48 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by znomit
Electronics are pretty simple compared to what's inside a mechanical shifter. Expect an electric 105 at the current sales point.
Yes. Before we wax all nostalgic about mech shifters let's not forget the broken cable ends, trying to fish out the broken cable ends, slipped clamps, periodic adjustment. cable and housing replacement and cable ends. DI2 shifters are much simpler just a micro switch. Never looking back.
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Old 09-02-21, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by popeye
Yes. Before we wax all nostalgic about mech shifters let's not forget the broken cable ends, trying to fish out the broken cable ends, slipped clamps, periodic adjustment. cable and housing replacement and cable ends. DI2 shifters are much simpler just a micro switch. Never looking back.
Exactly, just look at the huge price drops on Di2 over the last few years
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Old 09-02-21, 11:58 AM
  #82  
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Yeah .... I hate it when the battery dies on my mech Ultegra derailleurs.
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Old 09-02-21, 12:23 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Yeah .... I hate it when the battery dies on my mech Ultegra derailleurs.
Well, it's not Shimano, but the front Veloce shifter on my Bianchi decided that it was tired of shifting.
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Old 09-02-21, 12:39 PM
  #84  
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Well, as I mentioned, I had to replace one of my Ultegra shifters .... the cable frayed enough for the end to jam itself into some breakable bit and killed itself.

But with six bikes currently with Shimano brifters, and no other failures in so many years .....

I was mostly making fun of the people complaining about how bad mech shifters were, compared to the complete black box of DI. If your DI unit breaks after five years of hard use .... how do you repair it? I fixed my Ultegra shifter---bought all new guts and swapped half the parts. But if the electronics go bad .... how many TV repairmen do you know? If ti breaks ... replace it.

But wither way everything has Some drawbacks. The people complaining (now) about how bad mech shifting used to be .... aren't even fooling themselves. it's different, it offers some benefits .... but mech shifters still shift great.

You know how it is ... there are people who claim friction shifters were the best .....
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Old 09-02-21, 12:52 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Lazyass
Or one year old frames. Damn those lowly peons. When they get some experience like us they'll realize electronic shifting and disc brakes makes you faster. And most importantly, no one will be checking out their bikes in the parking lot before the group ride. I spend thousands for that alone and I buy a new bike every 12 months.
If a one year old frame is not Di2 compatible, it was either spec'd by the manufacturer expecting to mount SRAM eTap to it, or it was never spec'd for the high end road group sets to begin with, which probably means the average purchaser of that bike/frame never conceived of putting that kind of group set on it anyhow. Every year, eh? I need to get a better job.
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Old 09-02-21, 12:56 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist
I'm certainly no luddite but I maintain that something like a Claris groupset and rim brakes are just fine for a good majority of cyclists.
Considering the number of bikes available for purchase with this stuff on it, you're absolutely right. Then again, as I've stated at least twice now, the average rider that a bike with those components spec'd is aimed at is not the same rider that DA and road disc is aimed at.
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Old 09-02-21, 02:57 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Badger6
If a one year old frame is not Di2 compatible, it was either spec'd by the manufacturer expecting to mount SRAM eTap to it, or it was never spec'd for the high end road group sets to begin with, which probably means the average purchaser of that bike/frame never conceived of putting that kind of group set on it anyhow. Every year, eh? I need to get a better job.
You just made that up. In any case......

Now I know your post was passively aggressively directed towards me. You read what I posted but you failed to comprehend it. I, nor anyone else here as far as I know, it against electronic shifting. I have a Diamondback Podium set up for it and if the prices weren't so crazy I might try it. I'm personally not going to blow that kind of money on something that moves a chain left and right. If you're into it then cool. I don't think anyone has a problem with it.

My complaint is no mechanical option, and the lower costs they have. Probably 98.9% (my guess) of bikes currently being ridden in the real world are not set up for electronic. Most people aren't riding brand new bikes. So everyone who wants to upgrade to a new group someday can now scratch Ultegra off the list. And you seem to have a problem with "20 year old bikes". What the hell is wrong with them? That's arrogant as hell. Vintage steel frames with modern groups are even a thing. If you're never seen them, they're pretty cool. But I don't know, you might look down on those as well.

Now if Shimano wasn't selling their R8000 mechanical groups because everyone has now switched to the Di2 bandwagon then perhaps I could understand. But I don't see evidence of that.
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Old 09-02-21, 03:35 PM
  #88  
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Literally, I did make it up, extrapolating from a decent layman's understanding of how the bike industry functions, which is surprisingly similar to any industry that manufacturers and sells stuff. I coupled that with the experience of having talked with lots of people over many years about bikes, buying, maintaining, upgrading, etc. What I do know is that in most cases when someone buys a bike with budget components, they usually aren't doing so with any kind of eye towards putting a groupset on the bike that costs more than the original bike. Guess who else knows that. The manufacturers. It's in their interest. It's also why they have so many tiers of components, and it is why Shimano hasn't killed mechanical shifting, there is definitely a market for it...but increasingly that market is shifting toward the mid-tier and budget-tier buyers, if it wasn't mechanical shifting would still be available on Dura-Ace or SRAM Red for that matter.

And, yeah, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, not even you. Though your post got me thinking about some other posts I've seen bemoaning new tech and its incompatibility with older equipment, or general complaining about how the bike industry is forcing new tech on us even if we don't want it...whoever us and we are.
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Old 09-02-21, 07:46 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Well, as I mentioned, I had to replace one of my Ultegra shifters .... the cable frayed enough for the end to jam itself into some breakable bit and killed itself.

But with six bikes currently with Shimano brifters, and no other failures in so many years .....

I was mostly making fun of the people complaining about how bad mech shifters were, compared to the complete black box of DI. If your DI unit breaks after five years of hard use .... how do you repair it? I fixed my Ultegra shifter---bought all new guts and swapped half the parts. But if the electronics go bad .... how many TV repairmen do you know? If ti breaks ... replace it.

But wither way everything has Some drawbacks. The people complaining (now) about how bad mech shifting used to be .... aren't even fooling themselves. it's different, it offers some benefits .... but mech shifters still shift great.

You know how it is ... there are people who claim friction shifters were the best .....
Of course, even your Ultegra STIs are a black box to most cyclists who own them.
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Old 09-02-21, 08:51 PM
  #90  
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Best thing about the new 12-speed is Shimano fixed the crappy spacing on the 11-spd 11-34 cassette. It looks like the new 11-34 12-spd is the old 11-30 11-spd with a 34-tooth cassette added to it.

11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-24-27-30-34 instead of 11-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-27-30-34.

The 11-30 12-spd swaps a 16 tooth for the 34 tooth.
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Old 09-02-21, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by guachi
The 11-30 12-spd swaps a 16 tooth for the 34 tooth.
I'm unreasonably excited about this. Ever since I updated from a 12-27 that had 12-13-14-15-16-17 to an 11-28 (to get a bit more top and bottom end) that dropped the 16, I've lamented the loss of that gear. Seems like every time I hit the 17 tooth gear I'm like, "Damn it, I wish I had that gear here."
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Old 09-03-21, 03:12 AM
  #92  
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That's why I like a compact with the current 11-30 Dura-ace, at normal cycling speeds and cadences on the flat the chainline is pretty straight in 50-14 and 50-15 instead of being skewed and the jumps are just right.

I really like the new 11-34, big gears for climbing and tight spacing at the gears for going quickly. Will probably be assembling a custom climbing bike for my wife with that.
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Old 09-03-21, 11:20 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Badger6
Exciting stuff. But, until I can score a new groupset, I'm just going to sit over here and eat popcorn while the luddites bemoan that they don't want electronic shifting or disc brakes, and then tell us their 20-year old frames can't run this stuff...giggling my ass off because if they had bothered to buy even one new bike or a groupset in the last 10, or even 5, years with mechanical shifting and rim brakes they could have voted their preference for these things. Let's face it Shimano (and other component manufacturers) care about what they are selling, not what we are riding...and if you aren't buying, you aren't voting. But, guess what, guys like me who have bought 3 bikes and 2 new groupsets in the last 4 years did vote, and Shimano heard us, because...well, you get the idea.

Electronic shifting, disc brakes, 12-speed...none of that was foisted on us, it is because those of us who bought stuff in the last few years sent clear signals through our purchasing that we wanted those things. If you weren't buying, sure, you feel like it was forced on you, but don't get mad at Shimano, get mad at me.
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Old 09-03-21, 12:35 PM
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What's the odds on the 11 spd DI2 systems being able to upgrade to the 12 spd cassette?
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Old 09-03-21, 12:52 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by razorrock
what's the odds on the 11 spd di2 systems being able to upgrade to the 12 spd cassette?
That it's technically possible? Prolly 100%

That it'll happen and Shimano will be the ones to enable it? Prolly 0%
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Old 09-03-21, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
That it's technically possible? Prolly 100%

That it'll happen and Shimano will be the ones to enable it? Prolly 0%
Could be called crippleware. Reminds me of old digital SLR days when Canon would purposely not build in functionality into their lower end (eg. Rebel) models that the cameras themselves would have otherwise been capable of -- leading to firmware hacks becoming available (CHDK/Magic Lantern etc). Would be interesting to see some enterprising group do something comparable for Di2.
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Old 09-03-21, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by smashndash
"Haha poors. Keep crying that corporations won't make cheap products that you can afford! Why would they market products for you when they can market products for rich people like me?!"
I thought the issue was that this corporation makes cheap products that you can afford, but people want them to be labeled 'Dura Ace', not '105'?
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Old 09-03-21, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
I thought the issue was that this corporation makes cheap products that you can afford, but people want them to be labeled 'Dura Ace', not '105'?
eh. Not quite. Look at the "entry level" race bikes of the near future. You pretty much have to get semi-aero, low-mod carbon, disc brakes, electronic + wireless shifting (for sram. Soon for shimano too), integrated cables, tubeless (if it comes with hookless rims, which are cheaper to manufacture and gaining popularity), etc etc just to get a bike that was designed for people who actually want to go fast.

My bike would destroy these so-called race bikes in a real race. It's got rim brakes, an alloy frame, tubes, mechanical shifting and exposed cables. And it costs a fraction of what they do both to buy and to service.

The guy I quoted has a great point. Money talks. And people like me who are content racing on bikes that actually serve my needs rather than constantly chasing "new" are certainly much harder to sell to. But you can't happily support these companies for doing so and then turn around and act confused when people say cycling is an elitist sport.
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Old 09-03-21, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by smashndash
eh. Not quite. Look at the "entry level" race bikes of the near future. You pretty much have to get semi-aero, low-mod carbon, disc brakes, electronic + wireless shifting (for sram. Soon for shimano too), integrated cables, tubeless (if it comes with hookless rims, which are cheaper to manufacture and gaining popularity), etc etc just to get a bike that was designed for people who actually want to go fast.

My bike would destroy these so-called race bikes in a real race. It's got rim brakes, an alloy frame, tubes, mechanical shifting and exposed cables. And it costs a fraction of what they do both to buy and to service.

The guy I quoted has a great point. Money talks. And people like me who are content racing on bikes that actually serve my needs rather than constantly chasing "new" are certainly much harder to sell to. But you can't happily support these companies for doing so and then turn around and act confused when people say cycling is an elitist sport.
Unless those "so-called race bikes" have better riders than you on them.
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Old 09-03-21, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Unless those "so-called race bikes" have better riders than you on them.
what incredible insight you have.
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