Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

[chain] wrap your heads around this boys and girls...pretty cool

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

[chain] wrap your heads around this boys and girls...pretty cool

Old 11-18-21, 04:34 PM
  #1  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
[chain] wrap your heads around this boys and girls...pretty cool

pretty darn fricken neat, talk about thinking sideways or outside of the box.
yes, probably really more appropriate for the mtb gang, but it's so cool, I had to share it with you lot.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/first-...9a42-123259340
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:
Old 11-18-21, 04:36 PM
  #2  
randallr
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Broomfield, Colorado
Posts: 491

Bikes: 2017 Gunnar CrossHairs Rohloff, 2022 Detroit Bikes Cortello

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times in 89 Posts
Ok. And it's better than a Rohloff because . . . . . ?
randallr is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 04:56 PM
  #3  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
havent a clue, just thought it was neat.
my guess is lighter and more efficient, but hey, like I said, I haven't a clue. just cool.
djb is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 05:02 PM
  #4  
BobG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NH
Posts: 1,011
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 81 Posts
Cool, but seems overly complex. Back in my MTBing days a broken derailleur from a stick in the spokes was a common occurrence. We'd make sure that one rider in the group carried a chain rivet tool. If someone snapped their derailleur we'd shorten their chain to fit one combo of chainring/cog and the victim would complete the ride in their single chosen gear. When home they would call 1-800-NASHBAR and order a new derailleur. It would arrive two days later. Often the dropout would also be bent and need straightening with a big adjustable wrench. Problem solved!

Last edited by BobG; 11-18-21 at 06:42 PM. Reason: sp
BobG is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 05:13 PM
  #5  
Cyclist0108
Occam's Rotor
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times in 1,164 Posts
The Principle of Parsimony sheds yet another tear for humanity.
Cyclist0108 is offline  
Old 11-18-21, 05:24 PM
  #6  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
I agree, derailleurs work pretty darn well, for me anyway, but I still am impressed by someone who comes up with a totally different way of approaching a given, existing system

that's really why I put this up.
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:
Old 11-19-21, 03:32 AM
  #7  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
And once again I am reminded of why I bought a Rohloff bike for the rougher terrain.




But for a full suspension bike, the Rohloff adds unsprung weight. The Pinion system solves that.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Likes For Tourist in MSN:
Old 11-19-21, 06:44 AM
  #8  
John N
Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 451

Bikes: Co-Motion Americano Pinion P18; Co-Motion Americano Rohloff; Thorn Nomad MkII, Robert Beckman Skakkit (FOR SALE), Santana Tandem, ICE Adventure FS

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 48 Posts
Interesting, but

Interesting design but probably not going to go mainstream unless someone like Shimano copies/steals the design. My first thought was is it possibly to get my calf eaten by the upper chain ring. Also, how is the chain wear? Can really tell how much angle it has from the BB chain ring to the upper chain ring. But, yeah overall it is in interesting design. Good to see a young guy use his creative talents and engineering skills for this.
John N is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 07:54 AM
  #9  
RollingExist
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 3 Posts
I'll stick with my Rohloff. Mainly because the rohloff was insanely expensive and will hopefully last forever, but this looks cool too.
RollingExist is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 08:11 AM
  #10  
fishboat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,888

Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 750 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 799 Times in 467 Posts
Nice to see a kid (he was 24 when he started developing this) dive into something like this, patent(pending) it, and bring it to market. Not an easy task at any age, but tougher without 20 years of experience, and contacts, to lean back on.

I don't doubt (if**) Shimano or SRAM have designs like this on the books, but they'd decided whether to go to market based on the total sales opportunity minus costs and how much their other products lines will be cannibalized. The kid that developed this drive isn't working under the umbrella of "it can't be done". ""It can't be done, but I did it" is where new stuff comes from. (I'm retired from RD&E)

(** The if thing come from a practice of defensive patenting. If one of the majors had developed a design such as this they might well patent it as, even if it wasn't economical to commercialize themselves, a patent would prevent others from bringing it to market..except in China..)

The market & particularly young consumers (we know..the ones that marketers target as they can be "sold" and will spend the money..this isn't targeted, from a marketing standpoint, at the 50+ crowd) love something new they can rally around. Whether it actually solves a problem inherent in traditional designs is only part of its utility. The industry it creates is the real plus..lots of, primarily young, people will get involved in further development and manufacture of the drive system and bike frames to accommodate it. They'll learn something and have new ideas which sparks something else...all good. I hope they do well.

While this invention likely won't change the world, a Margaret Mead quote comes to mind, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed individuals(or just one) can change the world. In fact, it's the only thing that ever has."

A pic posted may help as a reference..

Last edited by fishboat; 11-19-21 at 08:46 AM.
fishboat is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 08:43 AM
  #11  
MNBikeCommuter
Senior Member
 
MNBikeCommuter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 852

Bikes: Cannondale '92 T600 '95 H600 '01 RT1000

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 80 Posts
Hmmm, yes, while quite ingenious, I think he's got an uphill battle with success. Needing a custom frame for it seems like a really big roadblock, and then convincing cyclists that parts will be available for a loooong time, etc.
MNBikeCommuter is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 09:14 AM
  #12  
OldRailfan
Old enough, hmmm?
 
OldRailfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Coldstream, BC Canada
Posts: 287

Bikes: DeVinci, Bianchi, Nishiki, RBSM Mud Adder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Liked 113 Times in 82 Posts
Originally Posted by djb
.................................... I still am impressed by someone who comes up with a totally different way of approaching a given, existing system

that's really why I put this up.
As Woody Guthrie phrased it 'Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple.'

Reminder to myself Have to listen to his records more often.

Of course the other one would be Albert Einstein's:
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.”

Naturally there will always be people who follow the "Rube Goldberg Way"

Last edited by OldRailfan; 11-23-21 at 10:31 AM.
OldRailfan is offline  
Likes For OldRailfan:
Old 11-19-21, 04:00 PM
  #13  
fourfa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 35 Posts
This product isn’t intended for anyone on this board. There is a problem with long-travel full suspension downhill MTBs called “chain growth” - DH bikes these days are considered to work much better with very high rear suspension pivot points and a rearward contact patch track on compression. Problem is, with traditional cranks and chainline this produces a massive kick into the pedals on big hits, and worst case can pull chains apart unless you put a secondary freewheel in the crank, or switch to a high idler pulley like this that’s concentric with the upper pivot. This design seems to additionally move the derailleur inside the chain stay for protection, which makes sense for hardcore MTBs. Pinkbike is basically a hardcore MTB site at this point…

Another more conventional high pivot design that’s getting a lot of good MTB press: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...rail-bike.html

Plenty more examples in the MTB world if you cared to search for ‘high idler pulley’

nothing to do with touring unless your tours involve 60 foot hucks and a Red Bull helicopter hovering overhead and filming you

Last edited by fourfa; 11-19-21 at 04:06 PM.
fourfa is offline  
Likes For fourfa:
Old 11-19-21, 04:16 PM
  #14  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
Originally Posted by fourfa
This product isn’t intended for anyone on this board. There is a problem with long-travel full suspension downhill MTBs called “chain growth” - DH bikes these days are considered to work much better with very high rear suspension pivot points and a rearward contact patch track on compression. Problem is, with traditional cranks and chainline this produces a massive kick into the pedals on big hits, and worst case can pull chains apart unless you put a secondary freewheel in the crank, or switch to a high idler pulley like this that’s concentric with the upper pivot. This design seems to additionally move the derailleur inside the chain stay for protection, which makes sense for hardcore MTBs. Pinkbike is basically a hardcore MTB site at this point…

Another more conventional high pivot design that’s getting a lot of good MTB press: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/review...rail-bike.html

Plenty more examples in the MTB world if you cared to search for ‘high idler pulley’

nothing to do with touring unless your tours involve 60 foot hucks and a Red Bull helicopter hovering overhead and filming you
absolutely. I've never even ridden a dual suspension bike, let alone having any amount of offroad talent to take advantage of hammering over stuff at speeds that make my eyes water watching vids of guys and gals with mucho talent and mucho cajones/bravery/nuttiness just fly through stuff that would have me stopping and walking down.

and yes, specific frames and etc all make this a neat idea, but would it be able take over any of the specific market? Probably not.
djb is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 06:40 PM
  #15  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,576

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,041 Posts
Wrap your string head around this:

tcs is offline  
Likes For tcs:
Old 11-19-21, 08:00 PM
  #16  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Thailand..........Nakhon Nowhere
Posts: 3,652

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1053 Post(s)
Liked 339 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by djb
pretty darn fricken neat, talk about thinking sideways or outside of the box.
yes, probably really more appropriate for the mtb gang, but it's so cool, I had to share it with you lot.
absolutely neat and really keen, but.....about as suitable for touring as the oscar meyermobile would be for lunar exploration. shirley, it would look cool!

not sure how suitable for even moderately loaded touring with a 12-speed transmission. i imagine it would be great for commuting in new york or los angeles, not so great for touring in cambodia or mongolia. not when it can still take a couple days of riding to get to an area with cell reception, and not nowadays when it can take forever to get bog standard spare parts.

just a couple months ago we sent a priority ems letter from guangzhou (pop 15 million) to bangkok (pop 10 million) that took 4-1/2 weeks. the express return package took 6 weeks.

replacing drive parts will be a no-go, but at least if you've got the sense to mount it to a quality steel frame, any local village smithy should be able to repair a cracked frame and possibly bodge something together...........
saddlesores is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 09:08 PM
  #17  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs
Wrap your string head around this:
Now that's something else. Thanks for sharing. Not really sure if this actually works, but certainly another example of someone getting a goofy idea and making it into an actual thing.
djb is offline  
Old 11-19-21, 09:11 PM
  #18  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
Saddle, ya I know, I know.
but now you've put the image in my head of the hotdog truck driving around on the moon beside Tintins rocket.
djb is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 01:55 AM
  #19  
saddlesores
Senior Member
 
saddlesores's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Thailand..........Nakhon Nowhere
Posts: 3,652

Bikes: inferior steel....and....noodly aluminium

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1053 Post(s)
Liked 339 Times in 228 Posts
Originally Posted by djb
Saddle, ya I know, I know.
but now you've put the image in my head of the hotdog truck driving around on the moon beside Tintins rocket.
https://i.pcmag.com/imagery/articles...size_1695x.jpg

"houston, we have a wiener."
saddlesores is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 07:57 AM
  #20  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,321 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by randallr
Ok. And it's better than a Rohloff because . . . . . ?
​​​​​​Maybe, it's lighter and expensive?
njkayaker is offline  
Old 11-20-21, 05:16 PM
  #21  
Pratt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 1,092
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 409 Post(s)
Liked 488 Times in 291 Posts
Very neat, but what I really want to see is the video of the blindfold comparison test.
Pratt is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 05:13 AM
  #22  
tcs
Palmer
 
tcs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,576

Bikes: Mike Melton custom, 1982 Stumpjumper, Alex Moulton AM, 2010 Dawes Briercliffe, 2017 Dahon Curl i8, 2021 Motobecane Turino 1x12

Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1644 Post(s)
Liked 1,785 Times in 1,041 Posts
Originally Posted by djb
Not really sure if this actually works, but certainly another example of someone getting a goofy idea and making it into an actual thing.
StringBike. Been for sale for several years. Used on tours. Used in RAAM. Yeah, it works.
tcs is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 07:18 AM
  #23  
djb
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
Originally Posted by tcs
StringBike. Been for sale for several years. Used on tours. Used in RAAM. Yeah, it works.
another tip of the hat to different thinking.
thanks. I hadn't actually looked it up before you wrote this.
djb is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 11:18 AM
  #24  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times in 706 Posts
Not as complex but I have wanted to make a project bike with an IGH drive and a front derailer for a while now.

Rohloffs are nice but quite pricey. Instead, I could see a SA hub mated to a double or triple crank as an interesting alternative to 8ncrease gear range. All one would need extra is a chain tensioner. I've seen it done before in pics.

Experimenting is good.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 11-21-21, 11:49 AM
  #25  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Not as complex but I have wanted to make a project bike with an IGH drive and a front derailer for a while now.
....
IGH ranges from 3 up to 14 gears. (Or is there still a two speed IGH available?)

When I first got my Rohloff, I disliked how far apart each gear was, but quickly got used to the the 13 percent jump.

But I can see wanting a wider range of gears with an IGH that has a lot fewer gears. The gears on my old three speed are much farther apart from each other, that could benefit from closer gears.

If you pursue this further, keep in mind that some IGHs use a 135mm dropout spacing, some narrower. You will need to get the frame to match your hub. I tried to eyeball a caliper on my three speed, it appears to have a dropout spacing of about 115mm, but that also has a drum brake, not sure if the non-brake version is the same. And mine was built when inches instead of mm were the norm, so mine might be 4.5 inches.

I think an IGH with a rear derailleur makes more sense than front derailleur, unfortunately the Sram Dual Drive is no longer sold, but I am told that Sturmey Archer makes a similar hub. I have a Dual Drive on my folding bike, the IGH gives me 3 speeds, the cassette is eight speeds, so I have 24 gears.

What is your goal?
Tourist in MSN is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.