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hand signals...

Old 08-17-20, 06:02 PM
  #26  
mr_bill
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Isn’t there a flappy bird forum here?

Around here, almost nobody signals. Behind the wheel or behind the handlebars.

To a first approximation, NOBODY “understands” blinky or arms.

Anyone who says otherwise is naive or noisy.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-17-20, 06:55 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Oh, you are blaming it on assuming what others will do without even trying - sorry you may too stubborn to even try.

Anyway this is a hand signal that gives cautious drivers confidence to proceed while I am still moving toward the intersection and those are the types that are most responsive to communication.. An aggressive driver wouldn't even be waiting for a cyclist to slow let alone signal. I also wouldn't want to unclip and put a foot down while still moving.

It is also useful to let the drivers behind me know I am slowing and preparing to stop for the 4 way stop.

(Yeah I've cycled into NH from VT a few time, but not far to Keene and the area. Didn't notice any difference in responsiveness to my signals.)
I'm not going to try it because I don't think anyone around here knows that signal, and what I do works just fine. I'm really not looking for solutions to problems I don't have. BTW, I'm in Nashua, Keene is nothing like what I deal with. I've ridden there a lot and never had problems.

Not sure what your problem is, I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, I was just explaining my different approach to the same problem.

So next time you're in NH, let me know. Might be my only chance to see someone throw a stop signal in New England.
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Old 08-17-20, 06:56 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
... signaling right doesn't always mean "moving out of the path of traffic". There are situations where I am signaling to merge right into another lane, where there may be traffic approaching from behind.
^ This is what happened. There's an intersection ( 5 way lol ) where I'm headed west my path is straight and some rough riding in the right lane at the far / west side ( 2 lanes each direction ) of the intersection, so I always take the left lane when it's clear, even when it's not - I'll mingle with traffic. So when they see me in the left lane they invariably pass me on the right - since that is what they do. Once I'm past the rough spot I move right into the bike lane. It's fairly sedate residential traffic.

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Old 08-17-20, 07:01 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Isn’t there a flappy bird forum here?

Around here, almost nobody signals. Behind the wheel or behind the handlebars.

To a first approximation, NOBODY “understands” blinky or arms.

Anyone who says otherwise is naive or noisy.

-mr. bill
I throw left turn and lane shift signals, I don't see many other cyclists do it at all. I sure as hell have never seen anyone signal a stop on a bike in Boston or a right turn.
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Old 08-17-20, 07:07 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I don't see many other cyclists do it at all. I sure as hell have never seen anyone signal a stop on a bike in Boston or a right turn.
You haven’t watched me, but then again, I’m the guy who signals on a knee scooter.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-17-20, 07:12 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick

Yes, driver at almost any driveway or intersection wants to pull out onto a road I'm on. If I make it clear by signaling that I'm turning, they can proceed. If I don't, they'll need to wait to see what I'm going to do.
That looks like English, but I still don't get it. You're using "pull out" in a way I'm not familiar with. If I'm driving in an intersection, I'm already in the road, I'm not pulling out onto it.

Anyway, you're just repeating yourself, making it obvious you didn't get my point. To signal a right turn, I have to take my hand off the bars which delays my turn. So if I just go ahead and take the right turn without signalling, the driver gets exactly the same notice of my intentions than if I. slow the turn to make the signal. It gives the driver no additional "wait" as compared to a signal.
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Old 08-17-20, 07:16 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
You haven’t watched me, but then again, I’m the guy who signals on a knee scooter.

-mr. bill

OK, I'll bite. No one understands them, but you do them anyway? Is this an aerobics program?
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Old 08-17-20, 07:24 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
OK, I'll bite. No one understands them, but you do them anyway? Is this an aerobics program?
Almost nobody, but still an optimist at heart, so I hope it’s not a complete waste of motion.

But I’m a realistic optimist, only a fool thinks everyone understands, let alone is looking.

-mr. bill
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Old 08-17-20, 07:32 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Almost nobody, but still an optimist at heart, so I hope it’s not a complete waste of motion.

But I’m a realistic optimist, only a fool thinks everyone understands, let alone is looking.

-mr. bill

Signalling at windmills, so to speak.
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Old 08-17-20, 07:55 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Not sure what your problem is, I'm not telling you to stop what you're doing, I was just explaining my different approach to the same problem.
I have no problem I am only surprised that when giving a suggestion instead of either ignoring it or saying 'Thanks I'll have to give it a try' I get a 'That will never work so I will never try it' which made me wonder if I was not communicating well. The 'different approach' makes no sense in that to put a foot down one has to be stopped or nearly so before the x-driver takes action which eliminates the benefit of the stop signal which is to avoid that delay of the x-driver taking action. It works so well I have to share it.
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Old 08-17-20, 07:58 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
That looks like English, but I still don't get it. You're using "pull out" in a way I'm not familiar with. If I'm driving in an intersection, I'm already in the road, I'm not pulling out onto it.

Anyway, you're just repeating yourself, making it obvious you didn't get my point. To signal a right turn, I have to take my hand off the bars which delays my turn. So if I just go ahead and take the right turn without signalling, the driver gets exactly the same notice of my intentions than if I. slow the turn to make the signal. It gives the driver no additional "wait" as compared to a signal.
The idea is that when you signal a right turn early (not just when turning) the driver entering the roadway can decide to turn into the roadway assuming you will be turning. It doesn't slow a turn. The idea is you signal before turning not while turning.

I also signal right so that drivers behind me know I am slowing to turn.
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Old 08-17-20, 08:10 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
That looks like English, but I still don't get it.
Ok, I'm fine with that.
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Old 08-17-20, 08:28 PM
  #38  
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I just point my arm in the direction of my turn.

I rarely spend time trying to identify who is seeing me signal a turn, or not.
I JUST POINT MY ARM STRAIGHT OUT IN THE DIRECTION OF MY TURN. THATS IT. The person(s) watching my arm signals may be more than you Think ! Maybe the other driver AND passengers are behind, or oncoming or from the side.
Whatever.

Also, Passengers in nearby vehicles May be giving verbal directions/instructions to the driver, on the fly, as they may be reading from a map, or translating from a written document to the driver.

OR, maybe the passengers are seeing something the driver doesn’t see; You ! They see your signals when, possibly, the driver does Not, and so they may caution the driver.
“Watch Out for that Cyclist making a right turn”.

I may not know, I just point.

If there is another cyclist who you DONT SEE, or pedestrians, or low-flying airplane pilots. WHATEVER. I just signal my turn and with reasonable notice. So I spend a calorie or two, when no one else is watching ? So what !

I just do it. I don’t bother to assume, as I could be very wrong Making an Incorrect assumption. Very wrong. I just do it.

I am respectful to those I am sharing the space We travel in.
I think it is a Safer way to ride my bike.
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Old 08-18-20, 07:07 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG
My left arm goes up out of habit, but I think pointing in the direction of the turn may work better these days.
...I returned to this thread this morning and I thought about 2nd to last turn before arriving at my office. There's a long right-hand turn lane, and when they re-striped the road three years ago they put the turn lane against the curb and moved the bike lane to the left of it (as seems to be the current strategy to help prevent right-hooks).

Anyway, I realized I have been using my right arm and pointing to the right...at least in this case, and probably more, if I were to pay attention.

I think the reason is that, in addition to checking my mirrors I turn my head and torso to physically look behind to my right, and pointing with my right arm seems more natural in association with that movement. Besides, signalling with the left arm and twisting right, puts the left arm in front and hides it from view to anyone behind.

For the 25 years previous when there was no bike lane, and then one against the curb, I had no reason to look behind to my right and raised my left arm to signal right.

I will stand by my original thought that it is probably better to signal with the right arm and point in the direction of the turn, but some situation may be better served by one aem over the other.

One last thing...when it rains and I'm wearing my rain cape and it's windy, I need to keep a grip on the cape's hand-holds and keep my hands on the handlebars. In that case I will use my legs to signal, but always kicking out my left leg for a left turn and kicking right for a right turn, as I am not limber enough to signal a right turn with my left leg.

Last edited by BobbyG; 08-19-20 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 08-18-20, 07:19 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
I have no problem I am only surprised that when giving a suggestion instead of either ignoring it or saying 'Thanks I'll have to give it a try' I get a 'That will never work so I will never try it' which made me wonder if I was not communicating well. The 'different approach' makes no sense in that to put a foot down one has to be stopped or nearly so before the x-driver takes action which eliminates the benefit of the stop signal which is to avoid that delay of the x-driver taking action. It works so well I have to share it.
Originally Posted by noisebeam
The idea is that when you signal a right turn early (not just when turning) the driver entering the roadway can decide to turn into the roadway assuming you will be turning. It doesn't slow a turn. The idea is you signal before turning not while turning.

I also signal right so that drivers behind me know I am slowing to turn.

Ultimately, I think we have a philosophical difference here. I'm far too focused on avoiding hazards from all directions to worry about the second or so delay that might be caused by my not throwing a courtesy signal. In the four-way stop situation, you're now suggesting that a cyclist has more of a responsibility to signal the driver on the other side of the intersection of our intention to stop than a driver has. You can't see brake lights from the front. I don't think there's any thing wrong with making people wait at the intersection until they confirm the other vehicle is going to stop, as a driver I do it all the time without any thought. I've found that cars roll stop signs at trafficked intersections with about the same frequency.

If I throw a right turn signal too early, it won't be seen by the driver who's pulling into the intersection. If I'm not signalling timely for him to see it, I don't need to slow much to turn right, so there really is no info that a driver behind me needs.

.

Last edited by livedarklions; 08-18-20 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 08-18-20, 07:45 AM
  #41  
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Responsibility?. I think you've missed the point. It is about courtesy and efficiency, but I can see how those may not be of interest to others.

When it comes to hand signals and more broadly communication with other drivers I have found the more the better as communication reduces ambiguity which reduces stress of those one is sharing the road with.
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Old 08-18-20, 07:57 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Responsibility?. I think you've missed the point. It is about courtesy and efficiency, but I can see how those may not be of interest to others.

When it comes to hand signals and more broadly communication with other drivers I have found the more the better as communication reduces ambiguity which reduces stress of those one is sharing the road with.

I don't think I've missed the point at all, I just balance all considerations including efficiency and courtesy with other safety concerns differently than you. I'm also not clipped in, so I'm a lot more relaxed about the idea of putting my foot down, and you're probably more concerned with pulling off a rolling "stop". I'm actually more concerned with my courtesy towards pedestrians than towards drivers.

Frankly, as a driver, I know what things cyclists do that annoy me. "Not signalling stops" and "not signalling right hand turns" aren't anywhere on that list. I approach every 4-way stop intersection as if I expect the other person to roll the stop sign and stop my car as required by law.
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Old 08-18-20, 05:15 PM
  #43  
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this is the proper way to signal turns.
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Old 08-18-20, 09:13 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
...courtesy and efficiency
Both of which were taught in drivers ed ( 10th grade requirements in 1976 ).
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Old 08-19-20, 06:45 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by gios
Both of which were taught in drivers ed ( 10th grade requirements in 1976 ).

I don't think courtesy and efficiency require me to facilitate drivers' rolling stops.
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Old 08-19-20, 07:40 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Signalling at windmills, so to speak.
You can see me signalling a stop here. You can determine for yourself just how EFFECTIVE such hand signals are.


(p.s. Every once in a while a windmill actually stops.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 08-19-20 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 08-19-20, 08:17 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
You can see me signalling a stop here. You can determine for yourself just how EFFECTIVE such hand signals are.

https://youtu.be/MlZjJeiggn4

(p.s. Every once in a while a windmill actually stops.)

-mr. bill
I try to always stop for pedestrians waiting at a crosswalk, and I find it very depressing how surprised they get that ANYONE stops. Virtually no one obeys the law requiring the stop. I say "try" because one can't always see them or predict when they're going to change direction at the corner. I definitely use the feet down method of stopping for a crosswalk as I want the pedestrian to be confident that I'm not going because someone following the rule is so clearly the exception,.

I do think I've guilted a few drivers into stopping for the crosswalk by stopping on my bike, but that's conjecture on my part. In my car, I've definitely had the car behind me honk at me when I stop for a crosswalk, and I consider that a confession on the other driver's part.
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Old 08-21-20, 08:52 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG
To understand your hand signal, the driver must first be paying attention. (lol)

I remember a discussion here a few years ago about signaling right hand turns with a crooked left arm vs. a straight right arm pointing in the direction of the turn. My left arm goes up out of habit, but I think pointing in the direction of the turn may work better these days.

I used to follow the mantra "ride like you are invisible", but a motorcycle friend said he rides like he is visible and everyone is trying to kill him. That is what I do now.

Anyway, points for biking with a mirror, and using my favorite...the take-a-look.
I've certainly noticed that my old school method of using my left arm to signal a right turn seems to be ineffective nowadays. I held on to it for a long time due to my age, experience, and needing to keep a hand on the throttle of a motorcycle. But a non-powered bicycle has no throttle, so I'm going to go with the more obvious solution (to modern drivers) and use my right hand for right turn signals from here on out.

And the motorcycle thing, when I rode at least 6 days a week I almost got hit by a car every other day on the road. No car sees you, unless you have loud pipes. With loud pipes people tend to look for where the sound is coming from.
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Old 08-23-20, 10:52 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
The crooked left arm was used because no one had a right arm long enough to reach from the driver's seat to the and through the passenger window. LOL

Now, bicyclists are allowed in many areas to use their right arm straight out to the right side to indicate a right turn.

I too wonder just how many drivers no what hand signals mean.

Cheers
I read once that since the original cars were open, ie had no roof, the 'right arm to signal right' came first. Then again, my old memory may be playing tricks on me.
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Old 09-28-20, 06:59 PM
  #50  
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I make sure to always look before I turn, even when using a signal. You never know..
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