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Normal for a cassette to rattle on freeehub?

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Normal for a cassette to rattle on freeehub?

Old 10-01-22, 08:13 AM
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jadmt
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Issue resolved….Normal for a cassette to rattle on freeehub?

I replaced a cheap VG cassette 11speed (11-42) which has all the cogs riveted and weighs a hefty 621grams to a shimano XT csm8000 11-42 which is svelte 435grams. the shimano has 2 individual carriers with 3 cogs apiece rivited and 5 individual cogs with two spacers between the larger of the individual cogs. the vg did not rattle but the shimano does. I have it torqued to 40 nm and it shifts like butter but is noisy going over bumps and and all the individual cogs along with the cogs on the carriers all move around a fair amount when wiggling them by hand. Is this normal? all my experience is with older one piece cassettes ie 7 speed cassettes from the early 90's and they had no movement. thanks.
it needed a 1.85mm spacer as was pointed out to me. Thanks

Last edited by jadmt; 10-07-22 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 10-01-22, 08:23 AM
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No, cassettes should not rattle or have play when installed on the correct freehub body. Shimano provides a 1mm spacer with their 10-speed cassettes that fits under the largest cog when used on an 8/9/10-speed freehub. Perhaps one of these would solve your problem and any bike shop should have them.
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Old 10-01-22, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider View Post
No, cassettes should not rattle or have play when installed on the correct freehub body. Shimano provides a 1mm spacer with their 10-speed cassettes that fits under the largest cog when used on an 8/9/10-speed freehub. Perhaps one of these would solve your problem and any bike shop should have them.
thank you. my guess is I will need to adjust my deraileur using a shim. seems weird I had perfect shifting swapping between the two cassettes.
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Old 10-01-22, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
is noisy going over bumps and and all the individual cogs along with the cogs on the carriers all move around a fair amount when wiggling them by hand. Is this normal?
No, not normal.

Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
my guess is I will need to adjust my deraileur using a shim
Address the cassette, not the derailleur.


Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
all my experience is with older one piece cassettes ie 7 speed cassettes from the early 90's and they had no movement.
Those may have been freewheels, but cassette cogs shouldn't move either.
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Old 10-01-22, 09:28 AM
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It's noisy when you go over bumps? Did you also put a new chain on it and now it might be too long and slapping the chain stay when you hit bumps?
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Old 10-01-22, 10:30 AM
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There should not be any wiggle. You may want to undo the lockring and check that the smallest cog is seated properly. These sometimes rotate out of alignment when fitting the lockring, especially if the freehub's splines are a little short and don't extend too deep into the cog.
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Old 10-01-22, 11:14 AM
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I'd double check that the lock ring isn't bottoming out before compressing on the cassette--a 1 mm spacer may make the difference.

Last weekend I noticed the same thing on my nine speed--loose and noisy cassette cogs, though the lock ring was nominally tight. I didn't check torque before I tore it down to find the issue, but it wasn't easy to loosen. I verified proper spline alignment, no visible damage, and the lock ring had more than one full thread to go before bottoming out. When I torqued it to 40 N-m, it would feel tight to start, then loosen up after a test ride, though the lock ring stayed tight at spec torque. So I over-tightened it a couple more clicks and it's now quiet.

I searched this forum for a similar problem and didn't see anything. Now here it is, a week later.

I plan on trying a better cassette--the one on there is an off-brand, but it's been working fine for many thousands or miles. It's about time to change it anyway--I've been through quite a few chains on it. If that doesn't do it, I'll look for a new freehub body, but that at that point I'd probably want a new hub, or a new bike....
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Old 10-01-22, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
No, not normal.



Address the cassette, not the derailleur.




Those may have been freewheels, but cassette cogs shouldn't move either.
I meant after I use a shim on the cassette as it will move the cassette outward 1mm the derailluer will need adjustment
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Old 10-01-22, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
It's noisy when you go over bumps? Did you also put a new chain on it and now it might be too long and slapping the chain stay when you hit bumps?
No, same chain with low miles
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Old 10-01-22, 02:06 PM
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FYI, the spacer mentioned above comes with other cassette sizes too. And they don’t necessarily have to go on BEFORE the cassette. On one of my bikes, when I put it on first, the spacing for the shifting was off (which could have been corrected by adjusting the derailleur). But instead, I put the spacer on after the cassette, under the keeper nut, and everything worked perfectly.

Dan
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Old 10-01-22, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
I meant after I use a shim on the cassette as it will move the cassette outward 1mm the derailluer will need adjustment
You might only need to adjust the limit screws.
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Old 10-02-22, 01:42 PM
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it was the spacer. added a spacer. having a bit of a time getting the limit screws set perfectly..Deore rd m5100 derailleur. I will keep fiddling with it. It was shifting perfect before so I know it is possible . lining the low gear sprocket with the derailleur sprocket will sometimes cause the chain to over shift and other times not. if I tried backing off ie moving the derailleur slightly away from the spokes but then does not want to stay on the biggest cog. low speed I have the screw backed almost all the way out and the still not wanting to drop to the smallest cog every time. using a microshift 11speed bar end shifter and prior to adding the spacer was shifting perfect lighting fast up and down. I have the barrel adjuster all the way in, maybe I need to loosen the cable a little.
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Old 10-02-22, 02:23 PM
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Plus one here.

It is absolutely not normal, but the problem isn't the cassette or hub, it's you.

Freehubs depend on the lockring to compress the cassette against the back shoulder. For this to happen the cassette must overhang the front of the freehub body slightly. If the cassette doesn't overhang, the lockring bottoms out against the freehub body without touching then cassette itself. Your torque reading is simply that of the lockring against the freehub NOT THE CASSETTE.

Go back and add a spacer behind the cassette to bring it out, and all will be well.
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Old 10-02-22, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Plus one here.

It is absolutely not normal, but the problem isn't the cassette or hub, it's you.

Freehubs depend on the lockring to compress the cassette against the back shoulder. For this to happen the cassette must overhang the front of the freehub body slightly. If the cassette doesn't overhang, the lockring bottoms out against the freehub body without touching then cassette itself. Your torque reading is simply that of the lockring against the freehub NOT THE CASSETTE.

Go back and add a spacer behind the cassette to bring it out, and all will be well.
kind of late to the party did you read the post above yours where I said I added a spacer and problem solved...I can be snarky too lol

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Old 10-02-22, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
kind of late to the party lol. read the post above yours lol...SORRY IF YOU WERE PUT OUT BY THE QUESTION>>>>
That happens sometimes, if I don't read every reply. (on the cell phone, stuck in a traffic jam, and reading the small print is difficult)

OTOH- I wasn't put off at all. I was simply trying to hammer the point home. I prefer to focus on greater understanding of how things work, than step by step tutorials that are more about process than principle.
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Old 10-02-22, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
having a bit of a time getting the limit screws set perfectly
Even though it was shifting fine before, it couldn't hurt to check the derailleur hanger alignment. Might save you some fiddling...
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Old 10-02-22, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Plus one here.

It is absolutely not normal, but the problem isn't the cassette or hub, it's you.

Freehubs depend on the lockring to compress the cassette against the back shoulder. For this to happen the cassette must overhang the front of the freehub body slightly. If the cassette doesn't overhang, the lockring bottoms out against the freehub body without touching then cassette itself. Your torque reading is simply that of the lockring against the freehub NOT THE CASSETTE.

Go back and add a spacer behind the cassette to bring it out, and all will be well.
On an 11T smallest cog cassette, the 'overhang' is little bit different. Since the 11T cog doesn't have grooves that extend fully through the cog, the 'overhang' that is needed is really a gap between the cutout of the cog and the end of the splines on the freehub body.

If the gap is too small, the lockring will cause the spline to bottom-out in the cog before it can reach and push/hold the rest of the cassette in place.




The OP didn't mention the freehub model but it must have longer splines than normal Shimano MTB freehubs.
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Old 10-02-22, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KCT1986 View Post
On an 11T smallest cog cassette, the 'overhang' is little bit different. Since the 11T cog doesn't have grooves that extend full.....
..
Thanks for that.

It's one of the reasons I focus on understanding the principles involved rather than the specific details. Once you understand how things work, it's relatively easy to sort out the particulars of something different.

It's sort of like the difference between having a fish, and knowing how to fish.

I know I can sometimes come on like ....... (feel free), but I prefer to use specific problems and solutions as a learning experience.

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Old 10-04-22, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by KCT1986 View Post
On an 11T smallest cog cassette, the 'overhang' is little bit different. Since the 11T cog doesn't have grooves that extend fully through the cog, the 'overhang' that is needed is really a gap between the cutout of the cog and the end of the splines on the freehub body.

If the gap is too small, the lockring will cause the spline to bottom-out in the cog before it can reach and push/hold the rest of the cassette in place.




The OP didn't mention the freehub model but it must have longer splines than normal Shimano MTB freehubs.
I am not sure of the freehub manufacturer (probably lower to mid range hubs to begin with) but ultimately it turned out to be a road freehub (36.75mm). what caused my confusion is the cassette that the wheels came with (this was a new bike build and complete bike not just wheels) was a mountain bike 11 speed cassette with the same 11-42 range and it fit tight with no spacer. A while back I asked if all 11-42 mtb cassettes where the same and was told they should be so you know that old saying about assuming
. everything is all good now thanks for the help much appreciated.
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Old 10-04-22, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jadmt View Post
I am not sure of the freehub manufacturer (probably lower to mid range hubs to begin with) but ultimately it turned out to be a road freehub (36.75mm). what caused my confusion is the cassette that the wheels came with (this was a new bike build and complete bike not just wheels) was a mountain bike 11 speed cassette with the same 11-42 range and it fit tight with no spacer. A while back I asked if all 11-42 mtb cassettes where the same and was told they should be so you know that old saying about assuming
. everything is all good now thanks for the help much appreciated.
I believe I've read that MTB 11-speed cassettes are generally designed also to fit 10-speed road hubs, with the largest cog dished to allow same. (Disclaimer: I've not tried this myself or measured one of each type, so I can't vouch for that being the case.) That would mean that they're generally a bit shorter than an 11-speed road cassette.

If you were installing this on an 11-speed road hub, that could explain the need for a spacer. Manufacturing tolerance variation of around 1mm in the original cassette (e.g., a bit longer than the Shimano spec) could also easily explain why the first fit snugly while the second didn't.

Glad you got the problem figured out and fixed. Enjoy riding.
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Old 10-07-22, 12:23 AM
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+1 for the spacer as others have mentioned.

If your cassette did not come with one, you can get a bag of them cheap on amazon.


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Old 10-09-22, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
+1 for the spacer as others have mentioned.

If your cassette did not come with one, you can get a bag of them cheap on amazon.
Pretty sure I ordered that exact set a year or two ago. Seem to be well-made. Unfortunately, all-black or silver don't seem to be available options.

Comes in a small white box vice a bag, though - or at least mine did.
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