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Stuck BB-driveside cup in Ti frame

Old 07-22-21, 06:09 PM
  #51  
CliffordK
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I believe both the Dura Ace and Ultegra Octalink triples use a unique "Tripilizer" middle ring.

The Dura Ace tripilizers are difficult to find. I'm not sure about the Ultegra tripilizer availability. I think there may be 10s rings available.
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Old 07-22-21, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I believe both the Dura Ace and Ultegra Octalink triples use a unique "Tripilizer" middle ring.

The Dura Ace tripilizers are difficult to find. I'm not sure about the Ultegra tripilizer availability. I think there may be 10s rings available.
The standard Ultegra Octalink triple FC-6503 uses a normal 5 bolt posts (74mm) integrated on the crank. Not the 'Triplelizer' config. that the DA FC-7703 had.

Yes, the FC-6703 and FC-7803 also used the Triplelizer type config.
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Old 07-23-21, 06:54 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by KCT1986
Another possibility, maybe, is to determine if a Shimano road triple would fit on your frame with the 109mm BB. The 109 is just aprox. 6mm shorter that the stock 118 triple version on the drive side. A little lower chainline but....

Attached is a pic of a Ultegra FC-6503 triple on a 109.5mm BB-5500. The smallest (30T) ring appears to be about in-line with the edge of the BB shell.



Hope that you can get the BB out but some possible option if all else fails.
I've never used anything but the recommended BB for a particular crankset. What's the limiting factor here? The chanring rubbing on the driveside chainstay? Bad chainline leading to poorer shifting (especially in small chainring and larger 2-3 cogs)? Is it just a try it and see if there is rubbing/crappy shifting kind of thing? 6500/5500 triples are moderately easy to come by to try.
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Old 07-23-21, 01:48 PM
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Well, I stopped by the shop and asked the guy if the BB was usable and he said the it felt like it was full of gravel before he started (I didn't do anything with it other than try to remove it when it was in my hands, so I don't know if a previous attempt to remove it already melted all the grease out.

He said that it wasn't a type of BB that was disassembleable, so his last attempt would be to get some allthread from the hardware store to clamp his BB tool onto the BB so it wouldn't slip and then put the tool in a vice and try turning the frame to get more leverage. I was thinking in my head that, if I had a mounted vice at my home, that would probably have been the first thing I tried before heat or something, but then I have the pedro's tool that looks the tool on the BB already.

Since he can't disassemble the BB which is needed to get the spindle out before he could cut the cartridge, he said that, if that didn't work, he didn't know what else to do unless I wanted to take it home, mount a crankset on it, and ride it on the trainer for a month without the NDS cup and hope that it would wiggle a bit from the repetitive motion and break the corrosion holding things together that way.
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Old 07-23-21, 07:55 PM
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Sorry that the shop hasn't had any success in pulling the BB.

If you decide to try a triple on the 109 BB, quote this message and I'll try to get you some measurement/pics of what I can.

My guess is that the area that will matter is the clearance for the smallest ring and the end of the crankarm.

As for chainline, would guess that it would be about 39mm, about 6mm inside of standard triple road spec., depending on how people measure. This would mean that your line will be about 1+ cassette cog off. Not too bad, depending on how you normally ride. If you mostly use the middle/larger (low) end of the cassette, it shouldn't present any problems. This would mean avoiding the 2 or 3 smallest cog while in the middle/small chainring. The other concern would be if you spend a lot of time in the big ring/smallest cog combo, might not be as quiet as you may like.

Not a Campy user so don't know the specifics of their system, nor how flexible the chains used on Campy drivetrains are. The current trend of 1x drivetrains creates lots of angle at the ends of the cassettes but people seem to be OK with that.

Don't know how Campy cassettes/hubs are so unsure of how they line-up with regards to the frames centerline. Nor any knowledge of the range available for the front derailleur. Shimano FD usually has quite a bit of range between max. high/low settings.

Good luck, let us know what happens.
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Old 07-24-21, 02:38 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by himespau
Well, I stopped by the shop and asked the guy if the BB was usable and he said the it felt like it was full of gravel before he started (I didn't do anything with it other than try to remove it when it was in my hands, so I don't know if a previous attempt to remove it already melted all the grease out.

He said that it wasn't a type of BB that was disassembleable, so his last attempt would be to get some allthread from the hardware store to clamp his BB tool onto the BB so it wouldn't slip and then put the tool in a vice and try turning the frame to get more leverage. I was thinking in my head that, if I had a mounted vice at my home, that would probably have been the first thing I tried before heat or something, but then I have the pedro's tool that looks the tool on the BB already.

Since he can't disassemble the BB which is needed to get the spindle out before he could cut the cartridge, he said that, if that didn't work, he didn't know what else to do unless I wanted to take it home, mount a crankset on it, and ride it on the trainer for a month without the NDS cup and hope that it would wiggle a bit from the repetitive motion and break the corrosion holding things together that way.
Riding it without the NDS cup may distort the threads in the shell. Every time power is applied to the unsupported NDS part of the crank, there will be a lever effect acting on the BB. Besides, making it unscrew itself in that manner seems unlikely given how badly seized it is.
The shop said that the BB felt like gravel, that means that the grease is cooked. This then inturn means that the BB is completely unusable.
The shell of that BB is hard as F. Cutting into it withouht damaging the frame will be difficult. I am in still in favour of aggressive heating as I outlined previously. Besides, if that BB is epoxied in, the only thing that will work is aggressive heating.

That being said, you could try this method
but you would have to remove the axle of the BB first.

Last edited by ign1te; 07-24-21 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 07-24-21, 03:10 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by himespau
Well, I stopped by the shop and asked the guy if the BB was usable and he said the it felt like it was full of gravel before he started (I didn't do anything with it other than try to remove it when it was in my hands, so I don't know if a previous attempt to remove it already melted all the grease out.

He said that it wasn't a type of BB that was disassembleable, so his last attempt would be to get some allthread from the hardware store to clamp his BB tool onto the BB so it wouldn't slip and then put the tool in a vice and try turning the frame to get more leverage. I was thinking in my head that, if I had a mounted vice at my home, that would probably have been the first thing I tried before heat or something, but then I have the pedro's tool that looks the tool on the BB already.

Since he can't disassemble the BB which is needed to get the spindle out before he could cut the cartridge, he said that, if that didn't work, he didn't know what else to do unless I wanted to take it home, mount a crankset on it, and ride it on the trainer for a month without the NDS cup and hope that it would wiggle a bit from the repetitive motion and break the corrosion holding things together that way.
...I thought about this some more, on my ride through downtown this morning. Here is how I would approach it at this point.

1. You bought it on e-bay, and there's a good chance the cartridge was in there when it was sold to you because whoever it was knew it was stuck. You could open a claim for your money back on that basis.

2. That's usually a pain to deal with, and even though I think you'd eventually win, you might just want to go ahead and go for removal and repair.

If you decide on the second option, you have some advantages at this point because of the design and construction of that Octalink unit. First, because it tapers down on the non drive side, you can turn the frame with the drive side down on a flat surface somewhere out of the way, and pour in a 50/50 mixture of acetone/ATF (AKA "pink slime"). This is by far the best penetrating oil available, much more effective than Kroil, PB Blaster, or even Freeze Off (which is pretty good). I dismantle a lot of old stuff from the 50's and 60's. This stuff is a lifesaver, used properly.

Because the cartridge is already scrap, and because it has a steel shell, you can then aggressively heat that steel shell from both the open side (non drive), and the drive side as well. You're no longer worried about melting the grease, and in fact, some of the pink slime will burn off as you do this. Do not let that discourage you. The heat will increase the wicking of the ATF mix into the threads. When done, reapply some more of the pink slime into the BB shell on it's side, and let it sit for a couple of hours.

Because the shell you're removing is steel, rather than plastic or aluminum, the teeth on the shell cut into it for removal are pretty robust. As recommended above, figure out a way to fix your removal tool on there so it doesn't slip, and use an impact wrench on it. I don't usually recommend this to people, but as a last ditch effort, it stands an excellent chance of working. If you've ever worked on old cars, you begin to appreciate the impact wrench as gift. The frame needs to be firmly (but safely...use padding like rags) clamped to some immovable object when you do this, otherwise the impact force gets lost in transition on something as light as a bicycle frame.

Anyway, that's how I would approach it. Good luck.
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Old 07-25-21, 05:27 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I thought about this some more, on my ride through downtown this morning. Here is how I would approach it at this point.

1. You bought it on e-bay, and there's a good chance the cartridge was in there when it was sold to you because whoever it was knew it was stuck. You could open a claim for your money back on that basis.

2. That's usually a pain to deal with, and even though I think you'd eventually win, you might just want to go ahead and go for removal and repair.

If you decide on the second option, you have some advantages at this point because of the design and construction of that Octalink unit. First, because it tapers down on the non drive side, you can turn the frame with the drive side down on a flat surface somewhere out of the way, and pour in a 50/50 mixture of acetone/ATF (AKA "pink slime"). This is by far the best penetrating oil available, much more effective than Kroil, PB Blaster, or even Freeze Off (which is pretty good). I dismantle a lot of old stuff from the 50's and 60's. This stuff is a lifesaver, used properly.

Because the cartridge is already scrap, and because it has a steel shell, you can then aggressively heat that steel shell from both the open side (non drive), and the drive side as well. You're no longer worried about melting the grease, and in fact, some of the pink slime will burn off as you do this. Do not let that discourage you. The heat will increase the wicking of the ATF mix into the threads. When done, reapply some more of the pink slime into the BB shell on it's side, and let it sit for a couple of hours.

Because the shell you're removing is steel, rather than plastic or aluminum, the teeth on the shell cut into it for removal are pretty robust. As recommended above, figure out a way to fix your removal tool on there so it doesn't slip, and use an impact wrench on it. I don't usually recommend this to people, but as a last ditch effort, it stands an excellent chance of working. If you've ever worked on old cars, you begin to appreciate the impact wrench as gift. The frame needs to be firmly (but safely...use padding like rags) clamped to some immovable object when you do this, otherwise the impact force gets lost in transition on something as light as a bicycle frame.

Anyway, that's how I would approach it. Good luck.
Yeah, I'm pretty confident that the seller was aware it was stuck, claims not to have been, "I bought it for 3x what I sold it for, but it didn't work for me so I took the parts off it I could use and sold it again," but the time to try to return it has long since past.

I had it for 1-2 weeks trying to get it loose before I took it to the shop and it's been there for ~5-6 weeks now and it's been beat on enough that I can't say it's in original condition anymore.

I clearly should have asked more questions about it, but it was a poorly labelled, poorly described ad on eBay with no other bids, and the only things on the frame were headset, dt cable adjusters, and BB, and I was hoping to get it as the only bid without drawing the interest of others (sometimes if you ask questions they update the information for everyone making it more attractive). This time it came back to bite me in the ass. Just annoying because I also bought some power meter pedals in the last month only to have the seller claim they worked, but were clearly broken (looking closely at his photos after the fact I can see clues of the damage that killed the pedals). Fortunately, I was able to return those for full refund.

What do you mean by ATF? (Transmission fluid?, something else)?

How do you all apply heat? Heat gun? Torch?

The only impact driver I have is a, 18V battery powered Makita with a 1/4" driver. I have to imagine that's not enough, right?

Is clamping it by the seatpost in my Park Tool stand far enough away that the frame would cushion the impacts?
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Old 07-25-21, 07:15 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by himespau

What do you mean by ATF? (Transmission fluid?, something else)?
...yes. A quart of Dextron from the auto parts store, and a small can of acetone from Home Depot, and you have enough to last you for years of taking stuff apart.

Originally Posted by himespau
How do you all apply heat? Heat gun? Torch?
...heat gun won't get hot enough. I use a MAPP gas torch, that is what I also use for soldering copper plumbing with lead free solder.

Originally Posted by himespau
The only impact driver I have is a, 18V battery powered Makita with a 1/4" driver. I have to imagine that's not enough, right?
...that actually might be just the thing. It's the repeated impacts that do the job, more than brute force power.

Originally Posted by himespau
Is clamping it by the seatpost in my Park Tool stand far enough away that the frame would cushion the impacts?
...you don't want the impacts cushioned by frame flex. If a Park stand is all you have, clamp it by the largest diameter frame tube near the BB shell. Your impact wrench should have a slip clutch that is adjustable, so set it for vert light impact torque to start. Work your way up gradually, if that doesn't have any result. Make sure to cover the Park jaws with some kind of soft interface, like a rag.
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Old 07-25-21, 09:57 PM
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...I just this minute installed an Octalink BB unit in a frame I'm rehabilitating.
It reminded me that you want to have your special Shimano BB installation and removal tool firmly bolted in there before you apply any impact wrenching (or much of anything else in the way of torque).

Otherwise those little teeth, either on the BB unit, or on your tool, are just going to disengage and round off. Once that happens, you lose a lot of possibilities.

I was a little tired, and should have stopped on this project a couple of hours ago, so on my first attempt, I tried to install it backwards.
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Old 07-25-21, 11:35 PM
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Having removed a ton of stuck bolts I am not a fan of using excessive torque because if the threads are damaged rotating the element only increases extent of the repair. We typically use burr grinders or shell mills and cut/drill the element inside of the bottom bracket threads in multiple locations and then collapse the element to the center, which allows the element to be rotated. Min 4 locations. Blue lining like this requires precision equipment and shouldn't be tried by hand. A good drill press and vise will work. Remember that the bearing is disposable and your goal is to save the threads inside the bottom bracket tube. Any good bike shop should have a tap to clean up the threads after its removed.

Good luck..
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Old 07-26-21, 07:11 AM
  #62  
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If you're not worried about paint, DOT3 brake fluid makes a good penetrant too.

I tried one of those 18V 1/4" drive tools on something pretty simple like an auto lug nut and it wouldn't even break that loose.
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Old 07-26-21, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by N2deep
Having removed a ton of stuck bolts I am not a fan of using excessive torque because if the threads are damaged rotating the element only increases extent of the repair. We typically use burr grinders or shell mills and cut/drill the element inside of the bottom bracket threads in multiple locations and then collapse the element to the center, which allows the element to be rotated. Min 4 locations. Blue lining like this requires precision equipment and shouldn't be tried by hand. A good drill press and vise will work. Remember that the bearing is disposable and your goal is to save the threads inside the bottom bracket tube. Any good bike shop should have a tap to clean up the threads after its removed.

Good luck..
...I was hesitant to comment on this, because I'm uncertain that my suggestion will work. Ordinarily I would agree, but in this case the thing being removed is not a simple assembly like a bolt. It's not even a BB unit that is easily disassembled, although I've never gone at one of these with a hydraulic press. They must be assembled somehow in the manufacturing process, and my guess is that the axle and bearing assembly is pressed in from one side.

It's a relatively complicated thing to drill out. and the worst case scenario as a consequence of damaging the threads in the shell are either that it will need to be reamed out and rethreaded in the larger Italian size, or that the future user will need to resort to one of those threadless BB units, which actually work pretty well, even if they are an admission of some measure of failure.

But very much yes on the general avoidance of impact wrenching when working on bicycles. The only other situation I think it might be warranted (as a last ditch attempt to salvage an operation) is on seized freewheel bodies on aluminum hubs. I have one of those I've been back benching for a month now, hoping that heating, ATF/acetone, and time might get it off by normal destructive methods. But I think I'm at the point now where I'll dig out the air impact wrench, turn on the compressor, and sink or swim on that one. Very frustrating, because something like that usually comes off for me without that, and there's an excellent chance it will damage the hub.
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Old 07-26-21, 11:03 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I was hesitant to comment on this, because I'm uncertain that my suggestion will work. Ordinarily I would agree, but in this case the thing being removed is not a simple assembly like a bolt. It's not even a BB unit that is easily disassembled, although I've never gone at one of these with a hydraulic press. They must be assembled somehow in the manufacturing process, and my guess is that the axle and bearing assembly is pressed in from one side.

It's a relatively complicated thing to drill out. and the worst case scenario as a consequence of damaging the threads in the shell are either that it will need to be reamed out and rethreaded in the larger Italian size, or that the future user will need to resort to one of those threadless BB units, which actually work pretty well, even if they are an admission of some measure of failure.

But very much yes on the general avoidance of impact wrenching when working on bicycles. The only other situation I think it might be warranted (as a last ditch attempt to salvage an operation) is on seized freewheel bodies on aluminum hubs. I have one of those I've been back benching for a month now, hoping that heating, ATF/acetone, and time might get it off by normal destructive methods. But I think I'm at the point now where I'll dig out the air impact wrench, turn on the compressor, and sink or swim on that one. Very frustrating, because something like that usually comes off for me without that, and there's an excellent chance it will damage the hub.
With your stuck free wheel, simply disassemble the free hub while still attached. There is a lockring that unscrews clockwise with the use of a punch. What will be left of the free wheel assembly will be more forgiving to work with.


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Old 07-26-21, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ign1te
With your stuck free wheel, simply disassemble the free hub while still attached. There is a lockring that unscrews clockwise with the use of a punch. What will be left of the free wheel assembly will be more forgiving to work with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsVL1XqZve8

....I understand destructive removal of a freewheel, and do it all the time. But thank you. This one is really welded on there, and even the remains of the body repeatedly heated and cooled along with copious amounts of penetrant have done nothing toward making it go away. Were it not a nice old Campy high flange hub still laced into a functional Mavic MA40 rim, it would already have hit the recycling bin.

If I wreck it with an impact wrench, that will at least give me closure.
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Old 07-26-21, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
....I understand destructive removal of a freewheel, and do it all the time. But thank you. This one is really welded on there, and even the remains of the body repeatedly heated and cooled along with copious amounts of penetrant have done nothing toward making it go away. Were it not a nice old Campy high flange hub still laced into a functional Mavic MA40 rim, it would already have hit the recycling bin.

If I wreck it with an impact wrench, that will at least give me closure.
Is the hub still laced to a wheel? If not, build up a wheel around it.

Edit: apprarently, yes.

Last edited by ign1te; 07-26-21 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 07-26-21, 03:53 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I was hesitant to comment on this, because I'm uncertain that my suggestion will work. Ordinarily I would agree, but in this case the thing being removed is not a simple assembly like a bolt. It's not even a BB unit that is easily disassembled, although I've never gone at one of these with a hydraulic press. They must be assembled somehow in the manufacturing process, and my guess is that the axle and bearing assembly is pressed in from one side.

It's a relatively complicated thing to drill out. and the worst case scenario as a consequence of damaging the threads in the shell are either that it will need to be reamed out and rethreaded in the larger Italian size, or that the future user will need to resort to one of those threadless BB units, which actually work pretty well, even if they are an admission of some measure of failure.

But very much yes on the general avoidance of impact wrenching when working on bicycles. The only other situation I think it might be warranted (as a last ditch attempt to salvage an operation) is on seized freewheel bodies on aluminum hubs. I have one of those I've been back benching for a month now, hoping that heating, ATF/acetone, and time might get it off by normal destructive methods. But I think I'm at the point now where I'll dig out the air impact wrench, turn on the compressor, and sink or swim on that one. Very frustrating, because something like that usually comes off for me without that, and there's an excellent chance it will damage the hub.
Sorry but I need to clarify my recommendation. The intent is not to drill out or machine out the entire bearing. The intent is to drill or machine 4 spots or holes, 90 degrees apart, more if needed. These holes should be placed as close to the minor diameter of the bearing threads as possible and should be as deep as the threads of the bearing. Next we punch or collapse the bearing shell towards the center in each of these locations, this will provide an increased gap between the thread flanks and allow the bearing shell to rotate without damaging the bike frame. Its harder to explain than to do the task. Maybe taking it to a real machine shop and let them do the work could be the best option as these frames are expensive. Basically your drilling out the side wall of the bearing shell as close to the threads inside the bike frame as possible.

Last edited by N2deep; 07-26-21 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 07-27-21, 06:32 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
and the worst case scenario as a consequence of damaging the threads in the shell are either that it will need to be reamed out and rethreaded in the larger Italian size, or that the future user will need to resort to one of those threadless BB units, which actually work pretty well, even if they are an admission of some measure of failure.
Since it's already an italian threaded shell from the factory, reaming it out won't work. Also those threadless units won't work (unless it's possible to shim them?
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Old 07-27-21, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Since it's already an italian threaded shell from the factory, reaming it out won't work. Also those threadless units won't work (unless it's possible to shim them?

...sorry. I missed the post where you confirmed that threading. I was still confused about the existence of a Lightspeed frame with an Italian BB shell.
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Old 07-27-21, 08:16 AM
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Yeah, I think a lot of people were/are but they must have really wanted to work with Merckx.

When I was talking with the current dude at Litespeed, I asked him if cutting out/replacing shells was a repair job that they did and never heard back. No idea how much that would cost (probably well into sunk cost fallacy territory), if they would even do it. Looks like their current frames come with T47 BBs and I have no idea what one would do with that. Definitely couldn't use my current cranksets.
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Old 07-27-21, 10:10 AM
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.
...I have come around now to the idea that maybe trying my heat and ATF/acetone thing, but without the impact wrench, then affixing the Shimano removal tool to the Octalink BB unit and then doing the thing where you lock that tool in a vise, and use the frame to twist it off might be a reasonable, low cost, first step. That might not work. I think at that point I'd go looking for a local machine shop (or local frame builder guy if such a thing exists), and inquire up front about the costs of milling/drilling it out.

I've never done this with titanium, and have little or no experience with that material, other than owning one Spectrum titanium bicycle, which is a nice ride.

With steel (and aluminum as well) BB shells, even if you lose the threads, with the proper equipment you can either build up material on the inside surface, which you then rethread, or it's possible to simply ream the shell out to the exact diameter to accept a preselected sleeve, which is then fixed in place inside the shell and rethreaded. I think with titanium, you might even get away with using miracle, space age epoxy to lock that sleeve in place. But it's an area of considerable stress and repeated flex, so no guarantees on that. This sounds like it might involve considerably more costs.

But I'd definitely follow up with Lightspeed, because they already have all the stuff to work on these frames, and doubtless the most experience.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau
I took the bike to the local shop and they've tried a couple more penetrating solvents, as well as apparently heating the BB shell and cooling it down. It doesn't move.
I am no kind of chemist but shouldn't the mechanic be attempting to loosen the cup while it's still hot? The heat will temporarily melt the threadlocker, but if you let it cool down again, I imagine the threadlocker will solidify again.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
I am no kind of chemist but shouldn't the mechanic be attempting to loosen the cup while it's still hot? The heat will temporarily melt the threadlocker, but if you let it cool down again, I imagine the threadlocker will solidify again.
I think the idea is that things cool at different rates and heating (or using Freeze Off to cool - which is theoretically done as a separate step) is more out differentially changing the shape of the 2 compounds and breaking a physical interaction than melting the threadlocker. You have to let it cool down a bit so you don't burn yourself when working with it, but yeah, the danger is that threadlocker could seal back up again. That's why I left it to the experts at the bike shop after not being able to brute force it.
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Old 07-28-21, 10:56 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by himespau
I think the idea is that things cool at different rates and heating (or using Freeze Off to cool - which is theoretically done as a separate step) is more out differentially changing the shape of the 2 compounds and breaking a physical interaction than melting the threadlocker. You have to let it cool down a bit so you don't burn yourself when working with it, but yeah, the danger is that threadlocker could seal back up again. That's why I left it to the experts at the bike shop after not being able to brute force it.
So what is the current status? 28th of July.
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Old 07-28-21, 11:22 AM
  #75  
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Frame is still at the shop. They guy said he had a couple things he wanted to try when I stopped by to ask if the BB was still usable last Friday. I guess I'm waiting for him to call it (or for Litespeed to tell me that it'll cost X to replace the shell or that they won't do it), but I should probably just call it for him.
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