Ekdog

I wish I could move there.

cooker

Those uncontrolled intersections are amazing.

gerv 

I'm not sure about this video...

A 5 year old is a competent city cyclist? Heresy!

And there was not one road racer anywhere. What's up with that? Gee... if I see 20 cyclists on the way to work 8 of them are racing all out.

poormanbiking

Our culture in the U.S. couldn't handle that. To sweat a little is unacceptable. When I pedal my 7 miles to work ,people act like I just ran a marathon.

Ekdog

Yet the sedentary American lifestyle leads to obesity, and the obese sweat more than fit people do. Another thing I've noticed by watching these videos is that none of these Dutch cyclists seem to be racing, so they're probably not perspiring all that much.

shipwreck

Man. I have known some Dutch here in the states who refused to ride a bicycle at all. They thought I was insane for riding on the roads we have here. Most stated that it was the hills and the distances, as well as no shoulders. I ferried a lot of Dutch students around in my old Galaxy when I was in college.

Thanks to youtube, and vids like this, I now totally understand why they thought that way. But oddly, I don't know how long it would take me to learn how to "go with the flow" there. I kept clenching up watching them go thru that intersection. Seeing the babys lashed to mothers, kids, all that, I would be more terrified to start riding there than any shoulderless rumble stripped road I have ever been on.

If their system were to be magically transplanted into every city in the US over night, and for some reason Americans tried it out the next day, the carnage would be on a scale that was immeasurable.

Ekdog

I don't think so.

There's already carnage in the United States (as well as here in southern Europe and elsewhere)--and it's caused by the car-centric system. As you saw in the video, Amsterdam had gone over to an American-style "cars are the future; that's progress" type model back in the 1970s. That is what led to carnage and that is why the Dutch rose up and demanded change. Too many people, especially children, were dying and they weren't willing to put up with it any longer.

Machka 

It is terrifying! I did NOT like cycling in Amsterdam at all. However, once you get out of the city and into the country, it's nice.

I found it easier to ride in Taiwan, which has a similar situation of roads full of cars, motorcycles, scooters, and bicycles. My first ride there was rather terrifying, but then I figured out the flow and it was OK after that.

cycleobsidian

I cycled in Amsterdam as well last summer, as well as other parts of Holland. The most densely populated areas of old Amsterdam were very intimidating, but Amsterdam as a whole was quite pleasant. Old Amsterdam does indeed function like the video. When I asked a woman who lives in old Amsterdam if she was scared to cycle there, she said no, because she had been doing it since she was 3 years old. (Of course at that point she is on a bicycle with her parent....)

And, as Machka said, getting out of Amsterdam, and cycling just about anywhere else in Holland (we only cycled in the province of Holland) was a cyclist's paradise.

shipwreck

Yes, but automobile based screw-ups are often the result of incompetent people hurtling around in big kinetic energy rich machines through a system that has to use yield signs as well as other means to make drivers give way to others.
I meant that if you asked americans as they are today to adopt the system shown in the video, flow and yield, use judgment and courtesy based on the attitudes we use in traffic with our current system, it would be an anarchistic chaos.

Roody

But basically, chaos is what makes the system work. In a vague and undefined situation, people become more alert, they actively navigate and negotiate, they slow down and think things through, they use social skills to ensure their own safety and the safety of others.

Many scientific studies show that this isn't a Dutch trait, it's a human trait. In fact, the ability to move about safely in chaotic situations is even seen in other animals. (e.g., flock of birds or herd of wildebeest). Yes, it would require some getting used to. The System in Amsterdam was gradually phased in over several decades. But the stark truth is, while accommodating more people, Amsterdam's traffic fatality rate went from 100 per year to only 15. How can we argue against that?

Roody

FYI, an English page from the Amsterdam/fiets website:

https://www.amsterdam.nl/parkeren-ver...ycling-policy/

cooker

Yes, but safe anarchistic chaos. Of course it would be extremely inefficient, since some giant Ford Excavator or whatever you call it needs a much larger buffer zone around it than a Dutch bike even though each may be carrying a parent and one or two children, and it can't bend in the middle like a bike to squeeze by an obstacle, so the system would easily jam, but there would be few or no high-speed, life threatening crashes.

If you think of power failure situations, where the lights are out at a busy intersection, the American drivers all slow down and cooperatively take turns crossing on alternate axes. People know how to get along.

Dahon.Steve

Maybe we should start a thread on how to move and relocate to Amsterdam. Seriously. Is it easy to find a job? How difficult is it to learn the language? What steps are involved in becoming a citizen in Amsterdam?

With availability of transit in that nation, I would fit right in! LOL.

Dahon.Steve

Quite often, the street markings and lights on the road work against the cyclist. For example, the double line in the middle of the street forces the motorist to lane split just a few feet from the cyclist. Once you remove the double lane, you'll find them giving much more room.

Machka 

Visit Amsterdam first. Maybe you would indeed like it there ... but you couldn't pay me to live there. Other parts of The Netherlands, sure, but not Amsterdam.

I can think of a lot of other European cities I'd much rather live in ... Paris, Bordeaux ...

cooker

What's the appeal of Paris?

Roody

With or without a car? Using bike as transportation or not?

Machka 

Yes.

I've only ever cycled or used public transportation in Europe. I don't know what driving in Europe would be like, but I wouldn't rule it out.



And Paris is a beautiful city.

Ekdog

Considering how little interest you seem to have in living car-free, this is hardly surprising.

Edited to add: On the other hand, it looks like Paris might be headed in the right direction:

"The Delanoë city administration has opened bicycle lanes, launched a bicycle sharing scheme, built a major new tramway line, changed parking policy to encourage people to leave their cars in their home neighborhoods, opened several new parks, and even re-purposed a former highway as a public promenade along the Seine."

https://www.pps.org/blog/taking-the-next-step-paris-leads-with-innovation-in-the-streets/

Rowan

If you have to ask...

I think it really shows how disconnected and insular many of this participants in this forum are when there is a post about the Paris development as though it is new and exciting. This has all been happening along the Seine and elsewhere in the city for at least the past decade I have been going to Paris. The bicycle infrastructure has been in place there for years. So has the bike share thing. I recall on my first visit the delight at riding down the shared bus/bike lanes and weaving through the gridlocked traffic with a large degree of confidence.

Pedaleur

Finding a job is the hard part, as it is most everywhere. You have to have skills that are needed or specialized. For what it's worth, I found cycling in Amsterdam easier than other big European cities (Paris, Vienna, Hamburg, on par with Copenhagen).

Good luck.

cooker

I do She usually says she dislikes any dense urban settings and prefers smaller cities or suburban and semi-rural settings close to the countryside, so I was just a bit surprised at the endorsement of Paris, which is massive and very urban.

Personally, I found Paris to be pretty stinky with cigarettes and dog poop - it detracted from the visual appeal.

Rowan

We were there last year. The dog poop has been cleaned up. The cigarettes were not nearly so bad. Paris also has its fair share of parklands.

France in general was wise in spending its euros during the GFC renewing city and town infrastructure, especially along rivers and coasts.

We stayed with friends almost in the heart of Paris. They lived in a fifth-floor apartment. Tiny as it was, it was well located in terms of getting to the centre of Paris, and neither of them owned a vehicle, nor saw any need to.

The Bordeaux region was probably more to our liking, although likely the smaller towns outside the urban area were the most appealing. And it wasn't the wine that attracted us, but the extensive bike path network and the wonderful beaches up and down the Atlantic Coast that were virtually deserted.

cooker

Globally, I would expect that the majority of car-free-by-choice people (not those who simply can't afford cars but wish they could) live like this - in a walkable neighbourhood fairly centrally located in a city, and also well served by public transit. Of course there are occasional rural and suburban people who may choose not to have a car, but is seems less practical since the amenities are spread out much more.