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Help servicing loose headset bearings

Old 11-05-21, 08:03 PM
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BlueDefndr
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Help servicing loose headset bearings

Working on kids 24" Kona Hula MTB, has a threadless headset. I removed the upper and lower cups so that I could get to the bearings, and they were quite nasty. The headset has loose bearings that are not in a retainer clip of any kind. Cleaned, repacked and reinstalled, however the steering feels quite crunchy still. I'm a bit of a headset n00b - but fairly mechanical otherwise. The bearings seemed like they were in fine shape, other than old grease - so wondering why the crunchy feel. Looking for ideas on what I maybe did wrong ... Did I not pack enough grease in the races? Did I put too much preload on the starnut? I don't have a cup press - so when I reinstalled the cups - I just whacked them on as evenly as I could with a deadblow and a block of wood - possible some slight mis-alignment in the cups?
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Old 11-05-21, 08:12 PM
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A few thoughts- First is that you have the preload adjustment too tight. Second is that you have a ball to many in either stack. Third is that the cup and cone tracks are worn/pitted. Andy
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Old 11-05-21, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
A few thoughts- First is that you have the preload adjustment too tight. Second is that you have a ball to many in either stack. Third is that the cup and cone tracks are worn/pitted. Andy
pitted tracks would make a lot of sense. i'll check preload and if that doesn't help, pull them out again and inspect the tracks. there was the same gap in each stack - about the width of one ball. i like @cubewheels 's idea of going to cartridge, however, not confident i could pick the right cartridge that would be a drop-in replacement without replacing the whole headset.
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Old 11-05-21, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Replace the bearings with sealed cartridge bearing set. There are really cheap good ones you can have for only $10 and even the cheap ones last much longer than the loose bearings
Do they make a direct replacement sealed cartridge for loose/caged ball bearings?

John
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Old 11-05-21, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
Do they make a direct replacement sealed cartridge for loose/caged ball bearings?

John
No. To the best of my knowledge, you'll need new headset (cartridge one) as the cups are different.
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Old 11-05-21, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Juan el Boricua
No. To the best of my knowledge, you'll need new headset (cartridge one) as the cups are different.
That’s what I thought.

I don’t need a new headset at the moment, but the prospect of being able to use a sealed cartridge in an existing loose ball headset would be a revelation for thousands who are limping a pitted/indexed headset along for a bit longer. Especially where stack height is in the mid 30’s.

John
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Old 11-06-21, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
You'll need to replace the cups as well. the $10 set includes new cups.

Here's a sample $10 set with sealed bearings and cups included and note this product is for straight tube fork (non-tapered)


So where did you find this for $10?
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Old 11-06-21, 08:27 AM
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ZTTO stuff is sold on eBay. It’ll probably be a bit more than $10, but still cheap.

For a 1-1/8” threadless fork, it will be an easier way to go than fiddling with a headset that has damaged races.

John
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Old 11-06-21, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
You'll need to replace the cups as well. the $10 set includes new cups.

Here's a sample $10 set with sealed bearings and cups included and note this product is for straight tube fork (non-tapered)
Replacing a headset is a very different proposition than replacing a bearing. It’s a lot more work.
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Old 11-06-21, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueDefndr
Working on kids 24" Kona Hula MTB, has a threadless headset. I removed the upper and lower cups so that I could get to the bearings, and they were quite nasty. The headset has loose bearings that are not in a retainer clip of any kind. Cleaned, repacked and reinstalled, however the steering feels quite crunchy still. I'm a bit of a headset n00b - but fairly mechanical otherwise. The bearings seemed like they were in fine shape, other than old grease - so wondering why the crunchy feel. Looking for ideas on what I maybe did wrong ... Did I not pack enough grease in the races? Did I put too much preload on the starnut?
Too much preload is likely the issue. You only want the headset tight enough so that it doesn’t move forward and backward when you pull on the forks. This is often checked by putting the bike on the ground, pulling the brakes, and rocking the bike back and forth. But it should also be loose enough that the fork turns easily from side to side.

Another thing to check is the number of bearings used. When you pack loose bearings, there should be space for what looks like one more bearing but you really can’t fit it in.

I don't have a cup press - so when I reinstalled the cups - I just whacked them on as evenly as I could with a deadblow and a block of wood - possible some slight mis-alignment in the cups?
Wait! What?! If you are packing the bearings you do not need to remove the cups! Just remove the bearings. The cups don’t need to come out unless you are installing a new headset. Don’t make more work for yourself.

You can install a headset the way you have but you are correct that you may not have the cups square. If you rotate the fork and you feel it bind in one (or more spots) while being free in others, you may have cups that are misaligned.
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Old 11-06-21, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Too much preload is likely the issue. You only want the headset tight enough so that it doesn’t move forward and backward when you pull on the forks. This is often checked by putting the bike on the ground, pulling the brakes, and rocking the bike back and forth. But it should also be loose enough that the fork turns easily from side to side.

Another thing to check is the number of bearings used. When you pack loose bearings, there should be space for what looks like one more bearing but you really can’t fit it in.



Wait! What?! If you are packing the bearings you do not need to remove the cups! Just remove the bearings. The cups don’t need to come out unless you are installing a new headset. Don’t make more work for yourself.

You can install a headset the way you have but you are correct that you may not have the cups square. If you rotate the fork and you feel it bind in one (or more spots) while being free in others, you may have cups that are misaligned.
re: removing the cups. Yeah I know that now it was so brown and gunky in there that I didn’t see the stainless retainer clip on the race - so thought I needed to pull out the cups. Once I cleaned it on the bench I found the clip. Like I said - headset n00b - but learning

number of bearings seems right felt like one missing in each race set.

I just adjusted the preload and it feels much better but I can still feel a slight vibration. Will inspect races when I have more time.

appreciate the super knowledgeable feedback!!
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Old 11-06-21, 12:44 PM
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If you "just whacked the cups in" you probably got them cocked / not in perfect alignment.

what you can do is get a piece of threaded rod in 3/8" and some nuts and big washers, and make a press that will fully seat the cups.

use some wood blocks under the washers and tighten the nuts so as to fully seat the cups

when doing the final adjustment - put it all back together and lock the front brake, wiggle it back and forth till the play is gone, and the tighten the clamp bolts on the steerer.

/markp
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Old 11-06-21, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO
ZTTO stuff is sold on eBay. It’ll probably be a bit more than $10, but still cheap.

For a 1-1/8” threadless fork, it will be an easier way to go than fiddling with a headset that has damaged races.

John
Ordered a set from AliExpress for $10.99. No urgency to replace - as the current bearings are fine for now, and I can handle 4 weeks of shipping for $0.44. Fork is a 1-1/8" straight tube spinner grind - so looks like the ZTTO 3434S is the right option for me.
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Old 11-06-21, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mpetry912
If you "just whacked the cups in" you probably got them cocked / not in perfect alignment.

what you can do is get a piece of threaded rod in 3/8" and some nuts and big washers, and make a press that will fully seat the cups.

use some wood blocks under the washers and tighten the nuts so as to fully seat the cups

when doing the final adjustment - put it all back together and lock the front brake, wiggle it back and forth till the play is gone, and the tighten the clamp bolts on the steerer.

/markp
fair comment ... i have a bunch of thread rod kicking around - so will make a press-jig and make sure are in right when i put new cups in i just ordered (with sealed bearings).
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Old 11-06-21, 09:21 PM
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@cubewheels - It is a much older generation Hulu. I tried to post a picture, but haven't hit 10-posts yet. The headset tube is straight with no flare and the OD of the tube is 41mm. Am I right that the 3434S is a 34mm width on the OD of the friction-fit part of the cup? Which would be about the ID of the tube. A 34mm therefore would allow about 3.5mm of wall thickness and seem about right, where the 4444S would be a 44m OD which seems wider than the tube itself?
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Old 11-06-21, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Seems you're probably right. The next thing smaller to 4444s is 3434s. Yes, it's the OD of the friction part of the cup.
thanks - appreciate you taking the time to double-check it.
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Old 11-07-21, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
The Kona Hula looks like it could be a 4444S to me but I could be wrong (the head tube looks it's for the 44mm bearing cups). 4444S will also fit a 1-1/8" straight tube. You need to make sure.

The Kona Hula if that is your bike below is a threadless headset. You'll need to remove the bottom cup if you can and measure the cup based on the drawing below:


The picture of the headset you show does not go with that bike. Neither of the headsets you’ve suggested would work on that particular bike, either. I’m not saying that the headset you’ve suggested wouldn’t work in an older model of the Hula but those are not the correct headsets for a bike with an integrated headset.
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Old 11-07-21, 10:33 AM
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cyccommute - it's an older gen than the one shown - link is here (with http part removed so I can post it): konaworld.com/archive/2016/hula.cfm
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Old 11-07-21, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueDefndr
cyccommute - it's an older gen than the one shown - link is here (with http part removed so I can post it): konaworld.com/archive/2016/hula.cfm
You are probably okay with the headset you ordered. It looks like a traditional cup headset. That said, dimensions could be off. It’s not highly likely but it’s a possibility.

For the install, look at “DIY headset press” on-line. You can make one from althread or you can buy this one from Amazon. At less than $30, that one is a bargain and it doesn’t press on the bearing. If nothing else, buying it for the cup install tools would be worth the price. Look at RJ The Bike Guy videos for on making a tool to remove the cups.
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Old 11-28-21, 12:46 AM
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New headset came and installed today. Went in easy and feels much smoother. Only weird thing was that the new crown race included in the kit had a split in it. Made installing on the fork much easier than a normal race - but felt weird to have a split in it. Didn’t seem to affect operation. Anything to be concerned about? Use the old crown race instead?
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Old 11-28-21, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueDefndr
New headset came and installed today. Went in easy and feels much smoother. Only weird thing was that the new crown race included in the kit had a split in it. Made installing on the fork much easier than a normal race - but felt weird to have a split in it. Didn’t seem to affect operation. Anything to be concerned about? Use the old crown race instead?
Split crown races are common.
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Old 11-28-21, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed
Split crown races are common.
thanks!
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