vasuvius

I don't have a Power meter. The only power measurements I have are from TrainerRoad with it's calibration for the KK Road Machine trainer.

A month ago I did my first 8 minute FTP test which gave me a measure of a measly 166 (2.46 Watts/Kg at 148lbs)
I've been training regularly for the past 4 weeks and have gotten to the point where I actually enjoy riding on the trainer.

This morning I did another 8 minute FTP test which gave me a measure of 183 (2.74 Watts/Kg at 147lbs) which was a nice surprise.

Is a 10% increase in 4 weeks normal enough that I can expect similar gains for another couple months? I was quite well rested this morning and it is quite possible that I was not rested the first time I did the FTP test

What is the average FTP of people who race at a Cat 5 level? I understand there is a lot more to racing than just power. Road/crowd/group dynamics and strategy aside, I'm just looking for a power level comparison.

How does the Power calculation on TrainerRoad compare to actual power on the road?

Thanks, V

lsberrios1 

Hey Vasuvius.

I am very inexperienced but for what it's worth my FTP is at 260w right now and I would not consider myself a strong cat 5. I just did my first two complete races this past sat and sunday. I thought I was in outstanding conditioning and to my surprise I was just about average. Take it I am 163 pounds so you are considerably lighter but my FTP seems to be a full 80 watts higher (power meter measured). I averaged 250 watts yesterday for a 1 hour race. Normalized power was 265 watts. I am not sure if you can survive on 180ftp but 50% of it is being a smart rider and knowing how to place yourself during the race. I had the fitness equivalent of a cat 5 but the experience and group riding technique of a 4 year old. Results reflected this. I got dropped in the last 2 miles of the Crit and ended up 6th out of 16 or 17 riders on the RR. I can't handle attacks well and that I will address on my next few training sessions. POWEEEER!!!

Also, yes you can probably see a 10% increase in power, specially on the trainer. It will most likely tell you that the first day you did it you were somewhat tired, dehydrated or maybe hungry and the second day you were much more energetic. Variables tend to change things a lot. Specially when using estimates.

svtmike

The Kurt Kinetic curve is (in my experience measuring with a PowerTap and confirmed by things I've read) pretty optimistic from an absolute numbers perspective, but a 10% gain in 4 weeks from a minimal fitness base seems reasonable. You won't see that kind of gain consistently as your fitness closes in on your personal limits.

By optimistic, I mean 30W high at the lower ends of normal FTP ranges to 50W at the high end.

I've been working the denominator of the P/W ratio much more aggressively than the numerator this off season doing the TR Mid-Level base building program. I'm half way through stage III. I only gained 3W (a 2% increase) between my last two FTP assessments (12/31/13 and 1/27/14) but my weight dropped by 10 pounds in the same time.

canam73

I typically have a 4-5 month break with little cycling between seasons so when I start my training I've dropped off quite a bit. And during the 1st 4 weeks my ftp typically jumps right around 10%. After that, provided I train smart, it continues to climb but each 4 week jump will be less.

Here is a chart out of the Coggans book "Racing and training with a power meter". It is a guess, as plenty of people are at each level with more or less, and for level my FTP is a higher than the listing while my 5 Second is low. But it should give you a rough idea of where people are at:

vasuvius

Thank you canam73. This is very helpful.

hhnngg1

Once you're up to what you consider 'very in shape' for yourself, you'll be lucky to gain 10% FTP increase in an entire year. I'm lucky if I add 10 watts (<5% FTP) in an entire 6 month training block.

pdedes

As mentioned earlier, you are starting from far away, the early gains will be significant. Enjoy your growing fitness. My teammate just finished his 20 min test that correlated to an ftp of 370 w

FasterNearGirls

TrainerRoad's Virtual Power with the KKRM is very good, though it could be offset by a small percentage. It's important to keep your variables (tire pressure and turns of the resistance knob) the same every time.

Also as mentioned earlier, there are variables within your own self such as hydration, rest and how fresh your legs are, which you want to keep the same every time you do an FTP test for accurate comparisons. It's recommended that you perform the tests at the same time of day, with similar weather conditions (N/A), same stretch of road (N/A), after eating the same breakfast, etc.

But yes, 10% at those numbers sound about right. One thing that's likely playing a big role is the fact that you gained valuable experience in pacing from your first test, and knew how to start, gauge your effort and finish off the interval much better this second time around.

Lastly, a 20 min test will give you more accurate results than the 8 min one.

Dudelsack 

Someone has to be the sacrificial one.

I'm 61 and had never done a training program. I started the TCTP as a New Year's resolution.

My field test (8min) FTP was a measly 158W. Pitiful.

I'm just starting week 6. Maybe at the end of week 8 I'll repeat the test.

What I'm really interested in seeing is how it affects my road performance. We've been snow and ice locked so all but one ride has been indoors this year.

furiousferret

My FTP is around 245 with 3.5 w/kg, and I consider myself a poor Cat 5. If everyone went a consistent speed I'd be good, but your 10 second and 1 minute wattages are very important to keep up with the accelerations.

beatlebee 

In the beginning you also get better at pacing and simply perform the test "better."

Racing is much more than FTP. Crits in particular require ability to recover quickly from repeated hard accelerations.
Work on short intervals.

topflightpro

FTP is a simply a measurement. It cannot predict how you will do compared to others. That chart should be used as a guide. It is not absolute.

And I can tell you, there are guys on this forum with ridiculously low FTPs who have succeeded as a cat 2.

WhyFi

Frankly, I wouldn't worry about your FTP in absolute terms at this point - I'd only worry about relative progress; the KKRM is consistent enough with TR (with the same set-up every time) to accomplish this goal. One thing that I found with TR is that I'd see early gains for two reasons: 1) improved fitness 2) able to test better by virtue of experience.

gregf83 

Likely within +/- 20%. The power reported by TrainerRoad will be within about +/- 10% and for most people the power on a trainer is generally lower than what they can produce outdoors.

If you want to know where you stand relative to other riders you'll need to start riding with others, initially on group rides, progressing to entry level racing once you have some experience riding in a group.

FTP is a measure of your 60min power which, as others have said, is not as important as your shorter term (1 and 5min) power for predicting how you'll do in a race. The easiest way to compare yourself would be to join a team or find a group ride that includes some racers. You'll know what you need to work on after you climb a few hills with racers who are working hard. If you live in an active cycling community you can also compare your Strava times on local hills with other racers. It's pretty simple to look up race results for the top 10-15 on a particular Strava segment. Stick with the hill segments (steeper the better) only and ignore the flat segments.

carpediemracing 

One major thing about FTP tests is that the more you do them the better you are at the actual test. It's sort of like taking the SATs (or whatever they do now). When I took my first practice exam some of the question formats were totally new to me. I had to read them really carefully, figure out what they were asking, and then go look for the answer. After a few weeks of practice exams the weird questions were normal and I could breeze through them like a normal-to-me question.

With FTP type efforts it's hard to gauge pace etc, at least for me. You also figure out how to warm up better, how hard you can go, food stuff, etc. I don't do many FTP tests and I tend to start too hard, I tend to warm up too much, and I usually have eaten at the wrong time. I figured out some of that now so my tests have gotten more consistent and a bit higher.

Based on my average wattages in hour long crits, along with how I do or feel, I think the FTP number I got from testing is about right - 210-220w. In crits if I average 160-170w then I'm in pretty good shape going into the finale. If I average 180-190w it is a very special race for me and if I can sprint then it means I'm very fit and very motivated. At 200w I normally can't sprint and in fact I'm usually blown with a lap or so to go. At 250w average I'm usually out of the race by halfway. There were races where I was out in a few minutes and averaged 300-350w for those few minutes.

My FTP comes out to about 2.8 w/kg. However I present a pretty low profile to the wind so in a flatter race it's not quite as bad as it might seem. I am usually the first person to get dropped on hills, on group rides and definitely in races (among the first 5 or 10 to get dropped in a field of 125 or so). I also TT pretty poorly, usually in the last 3 or so if I'm doing a Cat 3 stage race with 125 starters, for example. Those two types of races rely on FTP for most of your performance potential so not being able to go harder than, say, 210w for an hour will really sour your chances of doing well in an hour long TT.

I upgraded to Cat 2 at the end of 2010 based on about 3.0 w/kg and a number of good performances in crits. I was racing Cat 3 for forever before that (1986-2010), competitively in particular races or seasons. A year later, at the end of 2011, I downgraded back to a 3. I think that's more the category appropriate for me - I have a very hard time placing in the 3s now.

For you I'd recommend working on FTP but also doing as many races as possible. When I first started racing I was absolutely shocked at the speed of the races. In my first year I only finished one race, and that one I was so out of it I was racing corner to corner, hoping I'd make it to the next corner. I got used to that high end stuff that you need to do to stay in races, I learned the hard way about never, ever letting a gap open when the pace is high, about the absolute focus necessary to keep on the wheels in front of you. 10 or 15 feet and that was the end of my race. It's a hard way to learn but I learned it, and now it's second nature. There's tactics and stuff but even the smarter riders, if inexperienced, tend to downplay the significance of the basics like not leaving gaps in front of them. Racing is a great way to really allow you to focus on things like that - you don't have to worry about traffic, you are in a race with peers, allowing you to focus on just the racing aspect of things.

Also I'd focus on improving your position for more leverage and better aero. The two almost always work together for a newer rider because a newer rider doesn't have the massive base miles and corresponding muscular development of an experienced rider. For example most new riders have a more upright position because that's what a normal person can do when they get on a bike. As the rider develops and becomes stronger, more fit for cycling, etc, the position morphs into a longer, lower position. Pros are an extreme version of that - their office is their bike and if they aren't comfy riding for 6 or 8 hours at a time they wouldn't be in that position. However pros typically have pretty aggressive positions. It's a result of their body developing the base necessary for that position, the lower back, the glutes, etc.

The key here is that the lower position allows you to recruit more muscles for pedaling. When you go up a hill you lean forward instinctively. No one tries to sit straight upright, like a 3 speed bike. Everyone, even those on 3 speeds, leans forward. Their body is trying to recruit the powerful glute muscles. Pros and more experienced riders have ridden enough to develop a solid core/base so they feel more comfortable leaned over, and as a benefit they also have much more muscle at their disposal.

As a side effect you'll notice your power going up when you adapt such a position.

A friend and teammate asked me to critique his position after a couple years of racing. He was professionally fit at a respected shop but after a couple years his needs were very different. We really changed his position wholesale, dropping his bars a couple cm, getting a 2 cm longer stem, and jacking up his saddle I think about 2 cm. He immediately placed better in the next four races in three weeks and change - it wasn't a change in fitness but it was a change in position that allowed him to take advantage of the fitness he had gained. Such a radical position change wouldn't have worked at the beginning because he wasn't fit, relatively speaking, but as a strongish Cat 4 he needed up to update his position to match his change in fitness.

jjjj

This fall I switched from the KK power curve on trainerroad to a Power Tap on trainer road. My Power dropped 25 watts after getting the power tap. That was the bad news. the good news was that by using trainerroad my power increased quickly. I am now seeing gains coming slower. I was fit and had a good base when I started, but had never done proper training. I just pedaled.

My question is there seems to be a disconnect between Coggan's table for Cat 5 racing and what people are experiencing. My FTP/KG is 3.2. I am considering trying to race, but want to be at least in the ballpark fitness wise with the other racers. This would enable me to actually gain useful experience ie... if I am getting dropped like a FRED then I will not be able to learn.

ovoleg

I'm at 3.9 W/kg FTP and I still get popped on climbs. It's a good thing that most races don't involve lots of climbing though

ovoleg

If your recovery is good and your 1min/5min power is decent, you will not get dropped.

In most races I average around 250W(3.25 w/kg). The highest avg power in a race for me was my 1st cat 5 race where 5 cat2 cyclocross guys were "trying out road racing". I was chasing the whole race OTF with another guy. The whole field exploded in 3 laps and it was every man for himself, strangest race ever haha...the race was flat too! I did 280W that race and felt like dying when I got off the bike.

canam73

The disconnect comes in because a typical race does not look anything like a 5 sec, 1 minute, 5 minute or 20 minute test. Most of the time is spent cruising in the pack at 40-70% of your FTP but with sudden bursts at 200-400% for 5-10 sec when the leaders hammer out of a corner or up a rise. Sometimes a few hotter laps at or a little over FTP to chase down a break. And then at the end, if you are still there, a ramping up that culminates in an all out sprint.

What will allow you to stick and maybe compete is your ability to recover quickly from these bursts and be ready for the next one. That isn't shown by any single power vs. time test. You can develop the ability by doing "crit intervals" of alternating 20 seconds at 200% of FTP followed by 20 sec. recovery for a couple of sets of 5 minutes each or similar drills. But the only way to test it is in a fast group ride or in an actual race.

Note that the OP only asked for a rough comparison to a Cat 5 FTP and indicated he understood there was much more involved. I only posted the chart with the caveat that it was a guess at best. But it gives the OP some idea and also shows that there are other relevant power intervals.

gregf83 

You're in the ballpark. You won't be dropped immediately so you will always learn something even if you get dropped in the first 10 minutes. Next race you'll hang on longer. At some point you won't get dropped and you can think about contending for the win.

bsramzy

I am also in the same boat. I am 86 kg and my first FTP came up as 147. I just started cycling more in the last couple months.

I finished the trainerroad sweet spot base and am anxious to see what my next test will reveal.

Regardless of what the number says, I am in better shape now at 30 years old than ever and truly enjoy every second on my bike.

jjjj

Thanks for the responses. It encourages me to try.

vasuvius

Thank you all for the responses. I'm intrigued that FTP to performance in races does not seem to be more highly correlated.
carpediem's experience of racing Cat 3 with an FTP of 2.8 W/kg is very different from others with much higher FTP/kg but struggling in a Cat 5 race.

I don't have any intentions to race, at least not this year. The primary goal is to get stronger so that I can keep up with the group I ride with (some Cat 5 & 4 racers and some very strong non-racers) as I'm tired of getting dropped.

Using a trainer is teaching me some good stuff as I focus on keeping cadence up. On the road, most of my rides are in the low 80 rpm range.
The trainer is helping me work on staying in the 90s and not burning out my legs.

The data is definitely making the trainer rides more pleasant. Hopefully the roads will clear up soon from the snow and ice.

Thanks, V

canam73

Even without an on bike power meter, you may enjoy reading the book I grabbed the chart above from. It goes on to explain what kinds of things from a power point of view can matter more than FTP, and even has tests for them and workouts to develop your weaknesses. Many can be done with heart rate, too. Or on a trainer with virtual power.

And for everyone who is ready jump in, note that this will only develop your motor for racing. You still need actual actual group ride and race experience to make it work.

carpediemracing 

Remember that w/kg is most useful when dealing with hills. If you're getting dropped on hills then there's simply no substitution for w/kg. When I started racing I was really skinny. I don't even know what I weighed for three years but I was 103 lbs in my fourth season. I won three races in quick succession between the fall of my third season and the spring of my fourth season. I also led out a teammate to a win and got 2nd in another race. All of those were in sprints. I thought that my form was good (that's how everyone talked about fitness levels) so I entered some road races. It was really embarrassing how poorly I raced. On the first climbs I popped in about a minute, maybe two.

(I will say that being lighter is easier. Accelerating 20 or 30 pounds less is better, even on a flat road. The only time much less weight is bad is descending. When I dropped about 40 lbs, between the winters of 2009 and 2010, I found that I couldn't descend well anymore. I had to sprint down hills to stay with guys that I'd normally drop on descents. On the other hand I found the short power hills to be much easier and I also found that accelerating out of corners, even on flat courses, to be somewhat effortless.)

Pure watts is important in time trials or flatter terrain. For example someone might be 100kg but put down 350w FTP, so 3.5 w/kg. Another rider might be 50kg but only put down 175w, giving the same w/kg but in flat terrain the 350w rider will have the advantage unless the 175w rider can shelter really well. This is why the big guys motor so well on the flats and then get shelled on the hills. Their mass wipes out a lot of their power, even if they have good power, but since they have good power they can motor. I've followed Cat 1s doing 500w for a couple minutes and then just blew up, even though I was drafting them. I simply couldn't sustain the power necessary to draft them. In those situations it's best to back off, let a bunch of riders get in front, and take shelter behind 20 or 30 riders instead of 1 rider.

Finally watt:aero-drag is significant for time trialing and sprinting. For example I read somewhere that Cavendish puts down in the 1600w range. Boonen in the 1800w range. Taylor Phinney has hit the 2400w range (something insane like that). However Cav is a smaller guy so he presents less to the wind than a Boonen. Also there's a pretty good national level time trial guy that puts down something like 290w for an hour. Through careful equipment choice and adjustment, using wind tunnel tests etc, he's still able to be a national level TT guy at that wattage. I think he can do 48 kph or something.

I'm little on the bike so I tend to have less drag. Guess which one is me?

(I got shelled in this race at 4 to go - the hill was just too much for me. Red Trolley, 2011, M35)

I'm not light anymore and it's obvious because I can usually descend significantly faster than other riders, like 5 or 10 mph faster at times. My smaller aero profile means that I can get away with less power. I have also learned how to save energy in a field so I do that. My races are usually very boring - I sit at the back and wait for the sprint. When I'm strong I start moving up between 7 and maybe 3 to go. If I'm not strong then I have to delay moving up because sitting near the front of the field takes an enormous amount of energy, even drafting and such. Here's a race where I wait until just before the last turn to move up, mainly due to the fact that I didn't trust my tires in the wet. I prayed the whole race that a break wouldn't go and luckily for me the field collectively decided to wait for the sprint.

Another race where I move up in the last minute of the race (I misjudged this one so it was unintentional but I was suffering super hard during the race). The guys I beat are significantly better than me in terms of fitness etc - one guy, Ed A, I raced with in college and he's won the Killington Stage Race (Cat 3s) and soloed to a few incredible RR wins where he won by minutes by himself which is just absolutely mind boggling. However he and the others rode a different race tactically. The guy that wins would win the Canadian National Cross championships (M35) and the guy that got second is a Cat 2.

In other races I'm closer to the front before the finish. However this costs me a lot of energy and a lot of times I'm done before the sprint. In the following race I'm constantly moving to the front, mainly out of fear, and in the end I pay the price for all my efforts. This is one of those races where I was redlined going into the sprint so I had nothing more to give. I was worried that when I stood I'm I'd just stop, it was that bad.
(I learned after the race that a bunch of my friends visited the hospital after the race - somehow I missed a bunch of crashes that happened while I was at or near the front, so I never saw my friends on the deck. My cornering issue was me being an idiot and putting low pressure in a tubular on a wide rim. Tubulars are rim-independent in terms of pressure, unlike a clincher, so I was running my tires 40 psi lower than I should have. Tubular wide rims are for aero; clincher wide rims are also for comfort/lower-pressure.)

Finally, a race where my teammates really worked hard for me. The guy that led me out at the end averaged 387w, which I thought pretty much impossible so I sort of wrote it off. I learned later he's an ex-pro mtb racer and he later got 3rd at Masters Nationals in cross, so he's a super strong racer. He worked his heart out for me. I averaged 200 watts less but I was the one that was supposed to deliver the goods. Even in the leadout, going 35 mph into a headwind, my heart rate dropped 5 bpm. I was resting and recovering at that speed because I was drafting well and I present less area to the wind.

What I find ironic is that I find races easier than group rides. Group rides inevitably go up hills. Since I suck at hills I struggle and often get shelled. Groups that wait are even worse because then I can get shelled over and over again. In a race you get one chance and then you're done.

Races also tend to be safer or at least more predictable than group rides. You can bail if you get uncomfortable. I've bailed in races, just moving to the back (if I'm not already there) and just staying there until the race finishes. It's easy to avoid things and you don't have to draft closely at the back. I'll sometimes be 30-40-50 feet off the back, on purpose. In other races where I don't get the heebie jeebies I'll move to the front and contest things. In group rides it's often a long and lonely ride back to the car if you decide to sit it out. If there's a bad crash, like a broken collarbone or worse, it could take a while to get help. Etc.