Are they fooling us?! a rant
11-17-21, 11:59 AM
#26
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I'd like to point out that the OP has been on the forum for almost a decade, and thus cannot claim "Newbie Scorn Protection."
11-17-21, 12:03 PM
#27
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I don't blame the manufacturers for developing new standards; otherwise their businesses (probably) wouldn't grow. However, we don't need to succumb, and some developments are actually improvements (although that may be subject to individual interpretation). My wife loves her 12-speed, boosted, carbon, etc MTB and I'm still happy with my 10+ year old, 9-speed Niner hardtail.
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11-17-21, 12:10 PM
#28
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I agree with some of this. I think threadless fork / stem was a definite improvement. But the latest integrated cockpit is expensive overreach. 9 speed rear is better than 5, but I’ll stop there. Hydraulic brakes, tubeless tires, electric shift? You can keep all that, no thanks. Some bikes now cost waaay too much. But to each his own. OP has every right to his opinion.
11-17-21, 12:10 PM
#29
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I too have a 26 incher.
As a rant I only give it about a 6.5 out of 10
I love my old stuff......I love my new stuff. I love my not old enough to be old but definitely not new stuff.
I am building up a 21 year old Ti frame and am gonna put all new stuff on it (with the exception of the fork ...its a 1 inch) .....I'll be a rolling contradiction.
I buy the stuff I want for my own reasons. Do I succumb to marketing hype ..... maybe but only if I think its really cool. Sometimes I do this and other people don't think it is cool.
Doesn't really bother me : )
As a rant I only give it about a 6.5 out of 10
I love my old stuff......I love my new stuff. I love my not old enough to be old but definitely not new stuff.
I am building up a 21 year old Ti frame and am gonna put all new stuff on it (with the exception of the fork ...its a 1 inch) .....I'll be a rolling contradiction.
I buy the stuff I want for my own reasons. Do I succumb to marketing hype ..... maybe but only if I think its really cool. Sometimes I do this and other people don't think it is cool.
Doesn't really bother me : )
11-17-21, 12:14 PM
#30
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They came from the industry seeing a growing segment. If you think gravel bikes exist because brands came up with the segment and forced it on consumers, you are a fool.
Some like to declare gravel riding has been around since back when people smoked while riding the TDF and sure that is accurate, but it also obviously misses the point.
Gravel races were around before the current gravel boom began. Races like DK/Unbound in KS and TransIowa in IA, and I am sure there were others starting to pop up in more states with a lot of gravel roads.
Early gravel races were ridden on mountain bikes, cylocross bikes, and monstercross bikes. Some early successful riders and race influencers went on to work for or with bike brands and their experiences led to changes in gearing, geometry, and components.
For over 15 years now, products have succeeded or quickly fell by the wayside based on user experience instead of marketing department push. Changes in bike design have succeeded or failed based on user experience.
And at this point, there are so many varied styles of gravel bikes that everyone can get something that fits how they want to ride.
- A bike with 50mm 27.5 wheels with dropper post and suspension points for underbiking on singletrack? It exists.
- A bike with a dozen mounting points to carry all the trendy bikepacking bags needed for an adventure? It exists.
- A bike with nearly classic road bike geometry that can handle 43mm tires for riding fast? It exists.
How is any of this a bad thing? And it all started because bike brands saw there was an interest and demand, so they worked to fill that void.
Some like to declare gravel riding has been around since back when people smoked while riding the TDF and sure that is accurate, but it also obviously misses the point.
Gravel races were around before the current gravel boom began. Races like DK/Unbound in KS and TransIowa in IA, and I am sure there were others starting to pop up in more states with a lot of gravel roads.
Early gravel races were ridden on mountain bikes, cylocross bikes, and monstercross bikes. Some early successful riders and race influencers went on to work for or with bike brands and their experiences led to changes in gearing, geometry, and components.
For over 15 years now, products have succeeded or quickly fell by the wayside based on user experience instead of marketing department push. Changes in bike design have succeeded or failed based on user experience.
And at this point, there are so many varied styles of gravel bikes that everyone can get something that fits how they want to ride.
- A bike with 50mm 27.5 wheels with dropper post and suspension points for underbiking on singletrack? It exists.
- A bike with a dozen mounting points to carry all the trendy bikepacking bags needed for an adventure? It exists.
- A bike with nearly classic road bike geometry that can handle 43mm tires for riding fast? It exists.
How is any of this a bad thing? And it all started because bike brands saw there was an interest and demand, so they worked to fill that void.
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11-17-21, 12:14 PM
#31
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The world's population is 7.9 billion.
When I Googled "Who are they" I got 14.78 billion responses.
That seems troubling.
John
When I Googled "Who are they" I got 14.78 billion responses.
That seems troubling.
John
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11-17-21, 12:17 PM
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11-17-21, 12:20 PM
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They could be fooling us, but maybe we're fooling ourselves. Maybe we're just a bunch of angry young men. Well, angry, anyway. Or it could be a grand illusion after all.
11-17-21, 12:29 PM
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11-17-21, 12:37 PM
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Does anyone else think the marketing departments of bike brands and component makers are too much in control of what bikes we ride at any given time? Do you all think this is the way to go? They want to sell us new bikes that are more incompatible and more expensive every few years by any means necessary.............
Tell me I´m wrong. Rant over.
Tell me I´m wrong. Rant over.
Those are facts. Call me an idiot or moron or make fun of me like the OP. No problems
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11-17-21, 12:50 PM
#37
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Is it that time?
Absolutely!!!
John
Absolutely!!!
John
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11-17-21, 12:56 PM
#38
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Absolutely true WRT Shimano's original Di and SRAM e-TAP. I bought etap and a couple months later they came out with AXS and completely dropped spare parts support for the really old 11 speed etap that suckers like me bought months ago. So, your front derailleur broke? Sorry. Shifters died? Sorry. You need to upgrade to AXS. You need a different crankset and oh wait, you need a special bottom bracket and chain and new wheels for XDR on and on. I spent many thousands just because SRAM does not provide any support for products and they force you into upgrading. If anyone disagrees, tell me how one would deal with broken shifters or broken FD when none were available anywhere and the only path forward is AXS for one stupid broken part.
Those are facts. Call me an idiot or moron or make fun of me like the OP. No problems
Those are facts. Call me an idiot or moron or make fun of me like the OP. No problems
Sorry guys, low hanging fruit. Edit- Seriously, what SRAM did does suck. Apparently we also have Shimano 12 speed as electric only....
Last edited by shelbyfv; 11-17-21 at 01:12 PM.
11-17-21, 12:57 PM
#39
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11-17-21, 12:57 PM
#40
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Does anyone else think the marketing departments of bike brands and component makers are too much in control of what bikes we ride at any given time? Do you all think this is the way to go? They want to sell us new bikes that are more incompatible and more expensive every few years by any means necessary.
Right now my daily ride is an 80s steel touring bike. Straight 1" steerer, threaded headset. Threaded bb. Cantilever brakes. Shimano 600 indexed downtube shifting from the 90s, hyperglide cassette. Can fit fenders, racks and 37mm gravel or winter tires. I can get all spares for it cheap and they are actually being manufactured still, not everything can always be bought off the shelf from the LBS though. For example a fine quality 7s cassette costs a fraction compared to a modern 1x12 cassette. If I crash, I only trash a cheap brake lever, not a brifter that costs hundreds. Maintenance is easy because the technology has been there for 40 years, once you learn it you´re done. They are trying to force us to buy new stuff for no other reason than to get money from us. There´s been very little development in the modern quality bicycle in the past 40 years(with the exception of the mountain bike, which is arguably better today compared to the 90s). Honestly, we could have stopped most of the development in the 90s and be perfectly happy! For road, touring and commuting anyway.
The end result of all this in 2021: Keeping a good parts stock for the small LBS is next to impossible (let´s start with the hundreds of headset and bb standards, 7-13s cassettes, the list goes on). Learning the skills to service your new bike is a process (disc brake flushing, integrated cable routing, hub and bb service). Collecting all the different special tools for your new bike can be expensive. Spares for your modern bike are more and more expensive (cassette, derailleurs, chainrings) and sometimes hard to get (proprietary seatposts, stems, headsets, thru axles etc.). Sometimes you have a hard time even determining what parts you have on your bike next to you (headset: tapered? integrated? size?). All for some undetermined undefined quite marginal gain! Does anyone else think we´re being fooled a bit here?
Tell me I´m wrong. Rant over.
Right now my daily ride is an 80s steel touring bike. Straight 1" steerer, threaded headset. Threaded bb. Cantilever brakes. Shimano 600 indexed downtube shifting from the 90s, hyperglide cassette. Can fit fenders, racks and 37mm gravel or winter tires. I can get all spares for it cheap and they are actually being manufactured still, not everything can always be bought off the shelf from the LBS though. For example a fine quality 7s cassette costs a fraction compared to a modern 1x12 cassette. If I crash, I only trash a cheap brake lever, not a brifter that costs hundreds. Maintenance is easy because the technology has been there for 40 years, once you learn it you´re done. They are trying to force us to buy new stuff for no other reason than to get money from us. There´s been very little development in the modern quality bicycle in the past 40 years(with the exception of the mountain bike, which is arguably better today compared to the 90s). Honestly, we could have stopped most of the development in the 90s and be perfectly happy! For road, touring and commuting anyway.
The end result of all this in 2021: Keeping a good parts stock for the small LBS is next to impossible (let´s start with the hundreds of headset and bb standards, 7-13s cassettes, the list goes on). Learning the skills to service your new bike is a process (disc brake flushing, integrated cable routing, hub and bb service). Collecting all the different special tools for your new bike can be expensive. Spares for your modern bike are more and more expensive (cassette, derailleurs, chainrings) and sometimes hard to get (proprietary seatposts, stems, headsets, thru axles etc.). Sometimes you have a hard time even determining what parts you have on your bike next to you (headset: tapered? integrated? size?). All for some undetermined undefined quite marginal gain! Does anyone else think we´re being fooled a bit here?
Tell me I´m wrong. Rant over.
11-17-21, 12:58 PM
#41
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Meh. Ride what you like. I personally think the advancements for most folks have only been marginal since roughly the late 80s. But even thinking that, I can see where there have been advancements and I can see where for riders who aren't me those advancements may be MUCH more important than they are to me.
So, for the sort of rider I am, for the sort of riding I do, new tech isn't all that interesting. But for another rider, it may be critical. Go with what seems to work best for you.
Full disclosure: my current favorite ride is an 83 Trek with a 2x10 drivetrain and other advancements that didn't exist when it was built.
So, for the sort of rider I am, for the sort of riding I do, new tech isn't all that interesting. But for another rider, it may be critical. Go with what seems to work best for you.
Full disclosure: my current favorite ride is an 83 Trek with a 2x10 drivetrain and other advancements that didn't exist when it was built.
11-17-21, 12:59 PM
#42
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Absolutely true WRT Shimano's original Di and SRAM e-TAP. I bought etap and a couple months later they came out with AXS and completely dropped spare parts support for the really old 11 speed etap that suckers like me bought months ago. So, your front derailleur broke? Sorry. Shifters died? Sorry. You need to upgrade to AXS. You need a different crankset and oh wait, you need a special bottom bracket and chain and new wheels for XDR on and on. I spent many thousands just because SRAM does not provide any support for products and they force you into upgrading. If anyone disagrees, tell me how one would deal with broken shifters or broken FD when none were available anywhere and the only path forward is AXS for one stupid broken part.
Those are facts. Call me an idiot or moron or make fun of me like the OP. No problems
Those are facts. Call me an idiot or moron or make fun of me like the OP. No problems
- Companies stop supporting old product at some point. That isnt unique to the cycling industry- it exists with toasters and door handles too.
- I dont think spare parts were immediately dropped as in they were no longer available. The spares were worked thru as needed, right? If they literally stopped allowing spare parts to be carried and sold, then that is a horrible way to treat customers. I think it was more that SRAM was moving to a different technology and would no longer invest in supporting the old tech.
- You dont need to own the latest and greatest. That is one way to reduce the feeling of being constantly forced to buy something new. 9sp shifters are still around and will continue to be around. New replacement components that you can plug and play into that 9sp drivetrain will also continue to be around. Last week I changed the 13 year old 9sp Tiagra shifters on one of my kid's road bikes to Microshift 9sp and did nothing else. Brand new shifters that will actually work better for her due to the shift paddle design and they work perfectly with the old 105 RD and Sora FD. Hodgepodge road bike for sure, but it is easy to maintain and even update. That is just one example.
I was frustrated to hear Shimano would no longer support cable shifting in their upper level groupsets because I like mechanical shifting and my road bike frames arent designed to handle Di2. It was a bummer. But I am sure my 3 bikes with 2x11 shifting will continue to work just fine for years to come and if not, I will look to plug and play whatever is broken. I am not faster on a more modern road bike and I dont enjoy myself more on a more modern road bike.
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11-17-21, 01:01 PM
#43
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Take a look at any car commercial. When was the last time you drove through downtown of a major city in the middle of the day without any other traffic around and be able to park right in front of your destination?
Or for SUVs and pickup trucks, are manufacturers really encouraging you to drive over curbs and race other vehicles to beat the lane-end?
They try to fool you that life is good with their car but in reality, when someone buys a car, usually he just wants to get around and he's going to get stuck in traffic and pay high gasoline prices and insurance premiums regardless of the type of motor vehicle he gets.
Or for SUVs and pickup trucks, are manufacturers really encouraging you to drive over curbs and race other vehicles to beat the lane-end?
They try to fool you that life is good with their car but in reality, when someone buys a car, usually he just wants to get around and he's going to get stuck in traffic and pay high gasoline prices and insurance premiums regardless of the type of motor vehicle he gets.
11-17-21, 01:04 PM
#44
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11-17-21, 01:05 PM
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11-17-21, 01:06 PM
#46
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I can't wait until spring.
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11-17-21, 01:08 PM
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"Papaw what are those bike tires that don't use inner tubes for??"
"They're for sellin' grandson, they're for sellin"
"They're for sellin' grandson, they're for sellin"
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11-17-21, 01:08 PM
#48
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I hope no one here is implying that commercials might be works of fiction?
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