CB HI

Provide just one case that a cyclist death was proven to be sun in the eyes of the motorist that could not have been avoided. Just one!

Paul Barnard

There is no time of the day when a half witted driver won't offer up a lame excuse for their inattention. If you are going to wait for a time when a motorist won't happily latch onto a cop out, you'll never ride.

Paul Barnard

How do you define easier to see?

People pull out in front of tractor trailer rigs on a regular basis. Is it because the semi is "hard to see?" What should those semi drivers do to make themselves "easier to see?"

The bottom line is "hard to see" is an excuse rather than a reality.

Paul Barnard

Those of us that drive automobiles know this. There is a device called a sun visor attached to the overhead in vehicles. It can be flipped down to provide a positive barrier between the sun and the vehicle operator's eyes. As long as the big orange ball in the sky is above bottom edge of the visor, then the vehicle operator's vision is not impaired at all. Fascinating technology. You should check it out sometime.

CliffordK

The sun repeatedly comes up in Bike Forum posts. Not all about sun in eyes, but a quick search.

Likely not the only factor, but a contributing factor to cyclist injuries and deaths.

The UK has a motorcycle term: SMIDSY, "Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You"

As cyclists, we have to do everything we can to counteract our invisibility to other vehicles on the road. And, of course, this also leads to discussions about lane positioning. On the shoulder where a car can go flying past and not even care. Or, smack in the middle of the lane, more visible, but an error in judgement is very dangerous.

If everything in a car's lane is moving at 70 MPH, then a car can do OK even in limited visibility situations. As a driver you have to be aware of other vehicle needs. If fog or dust is too much to drive in, find a place to pull clear off the road so a vehicle behind doesn't slam into you.

Safe cycling requires an understanding of one's surroundings.

I probably wouldn't have avoided a ride like the Vegas ride due to the sun. But, I very much doubt I would have been following the SAG vehicle, riding down the middle of the travel lane.

We can see the truck likely had its visor down by the photo. I bet the SAG vehicle also had its visor down. Cyclists may also have been squinting due to the sun. Definitely not the only factor in the crash. Hundreds of vehicles safely passed. But, it was likely a contributing factor.

CliffordK

Not exactly true. There is a reason cars have big windshields.

Adjust the visor to it's lowest point, and one can dramatically reduce the field of view. The sun's impact will also move as one goes around curves (there was a curve near the crash site). So it could move from behind the visor to behind the mirror which is much less effective in blocking it. Or, from coming in the side to coming in front, so moving the visor or holding one's hand in front of one's face.

jppe

I sure hope the prosecutor in this case is a good one. With the various opinions we’re demonstrating in this post I can only imagine what the defense will do in an attempt to create some doubt, less harsh sentence etc. That in itself would be a crime.

JoeyBike

No one is claiming the sun as an legal excuse for rear-ending a crowd of people.in this thread, even though it has been insinuated. I only bring it up in the hopes that a few of my cycling brothers and sisters will CONSIDER how it affects vision through a windshield. Put yourself in the motorist's shoes. We complain that motorists are dense when it comes to OUR needs on the road. What would make it EASY for them to see AND avoid us? The sun in their eyes? Some here would say it makes no difference. Not sure what planet they live on.

JoeyBike

If the visor is pulled down past a certain point, and/or the driver is tall, then the entire horizon can be covered up by it. Traveling at 110 feet/second (75 mph) it won't take but a couple seconds to out-drive that sliver view. 3 seconds and more than a football field distance has been covered. How long does it take for the average human to SEE a road hazard, INTERPRET that road hazard, APPLY the brakes, have the brakes ENGAGE and stop the vehicle? Not a big problem so long as every car is moving at near 110 feet/second. But for a group of people basically laying down in the travel lane...just not enough time to save them. By the time they pop into view they are in the cab with you.

JoeyBike

Multiple choice question here.

Q: It is easier for a motorist to see me cycling on the roadway when the sun is:

1. To our backs,
2. In our eyes,
3. I don't care.

CliffordK

4. Alternating between bright sun and dark shade (fortunately not as big of an issue in Nevada)

Paul Barnard

Once you define "easy to see" for me, I'll answer the question. I don't have any trouble at all, irrespective of sun angles, seeing any other road users. I am not sure how they could become "easier to see." I either see them or I don't.

Paul Barnard

I don't need to see the sky. When the sun is sitting on the horizon dead ahead, I adjust the visor so that the bottom edge of the visor is sitting on the road far enough ahead to give me time to react to any road users. Maybe there's something special about the visors in every vehicle I have ever owned that make them work as designed.

I may not be able to get the sun angles where I want, but it's very easy to take a pic to illustrate my point. It'd be just as easy for the folks who don't seem to understand the concept to go piddle with their visors.

jppe

I understand the issues with the sun being directly in the field of vision. Heck, on my cross country ride I was riding west to east every day and typically getting on the road at first light and before sunrise most of the mornings. Fortunately I brought a cycling cap which I started using after a few days. Without it for the first hour I was simply unable to look down the road very far at all which was a safety issue unto itself. I might have been able to comfortably see a few bike lengths ahead which wasn’t far enough. I knew it could be an issue for drivers coming up behind me so I made sure I rode in the shoulder and had two blinkies going and just hoped drivers were paying attention. Usually there were rumble strips and a decent shoulder to the right of those. Most mornings traffic was not very heavy so that helped my comfort level. Since I was riding 85 to 100 miles a day and it was in August I didn’t want to wait a couple more hours to get going. I did feel it was adding some risk but there were plenty enough other risks when riding 3400+ miles and through several larger cities. The sun seemed to be worse in the most western states and maybe that was due to the altitude and terrain with much longer views???

JoeyBike

Apparently you have super-human eyesight. My bad, I just didn't know that. Most humans do not. Human eyes are designed to see light. We can't see anything inside a cave and the sun shining directly into our eyes hurts. Apparently the meth-head driving the steam roller in the OP is a human. Of course Superman would have just flown, not driven the truck.

rydabent

Visor??? Look at the picture of the crashed truck. THE VISOR IS DOWN. But is is not so low that he couldnt see the road.

He was on drugs. Throw the book at him and give him the max sentence allowed. People are dead because of him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paul Barnard

But if the sun wasn't in the sky, even though he was under the influence of drugs he may have seen them.

CB HI

No one that has pulled out in front of me while riding a motorcycle or bicycle had the sun in there eyes.
And there are options to sun problems:
regular visor that comes with cars and truck
after market polarized see through visors
Polarized sun glasses
and if the sun is still a problem, the driver pulls off the road until the sun is no longer a problem.

There is no excuse to the sun in the eyes claim.

And your post did not contain one proven case.

JoeyBike

Several years ago I missed a flight from a Houston Airport late one afternoon. By the time I rented a car to make the 6 hour drive to New Orleans the sun was setting directly behind me. I was driving thru an industrial area with few side streets but lots of driveways. As I approached one of those driveways a car idling there facing the roadway proceeded across the road right in front of me, as if he didn't see me. I slammed on the brakes so hard the automatic transmission was jarred into neutral. The Nissan Versa I rented had ABS brakes thankfully but it was a super close call - INCHES.

The sun was touching the horizon directly behind me. I knew what happened immediately. Like a bomber or fighter pilot, or a peregrine falcon, I used the setting sun to conceal my position - inadvertently. Maybe that driver was high on crack too, but driving straight out of a setting sun sure didn't help.

"Oswald Boelcke, a German fighter ace during World War I, was the first to publish the basic rules for aerial combat manoeuvring in 1916, known as the Dicta Boelcke.[4][5] He advised pilots to attack from the direction of the sun (toward which the defending pilot could not see)..." Source

So I wonder how many dead fighter pilots blamed the sun for their demise? Could it be proven? I bet the Ace who shot them down believes it worked.

"Like fighter pilots, some [falcons] approach with the rising sun at their backs, using the glare to blind the “prey.” - Source

Embrace the SCIENCE!

This entire sun discussion reminds me of something. Hmmm. Oh, now I remember!!

South Dakota ER Nurse, November 2020: "They tell you there must be another reason they are sick. They call you names and ask why you have to wear all that “stuff” because they don't have COVID because it's not real. Yes. This really happens.These people really think this isn't going to happen to them. And then they stop yelling at you when they get intubated." - Source

I guess until some folks get hit by a car cycling into a sun low in the sky they will never believe it. Oh the denial. It'll never happen to me.

CB HI

^^^ "Maybe that driver was high on crack"
And neither motorist or cyclist fly so that they can come directly out of the sun.
And then you foolishly try to link the covid to cycling. In other covid stories, an man has a huge auto crash killing him, but he has a touch of covid without simptoms - his death gets listed as a covid death. Nothing more than fear mongering, just like you.

JoeyBike

You know how many people have died of AIDS? ZERO. It's not the AIDS that actually kills people. It's the removal of their immune system that allows some other condition to kill them. Same with Covid for the most part. It opens a door for death to enter for mostly the weak and infirm with underlying health conditions.

And you don't need to be in flight to be blinded by the sun. Now you just sound like a goofball. The sun is in the sky all day long. At least in a plane sometimes the sun may appear beneath your vehicle. In a car it's always eye level or above. If you live above the Tropic of Cancer, during winter if you look Southward the sun will be smacking you in the face much of the day.

Oldairhead 

The whole "sun in the eyes" angle is a red herring. The simple fact is that if you cannot see where you are going then you need to stop! The term "too fast for conditions" applies here, where you can be cited even for driving under the speed limit if conditions make it unsafe to do so. Drugs aside, that alone is a citable offense. When you add injury or death to a citable offense you definitely move it up the scale of criminal behavior.

Blaming the cyclists for not knowing what conditions might exist at every moment of their all day ride is ridiculous. Maybe it was cloudy when they started out and they thought it would be safe. Maybe they believed the local weatherman and got caught out. Maybe it's the weathermans fault!?!

I say that the entire responsibility lies with the sleep deprived, drugged driver who was driving too fast for the conditions. Or maybe the cyclists should have known that drivers like him are out there too!

LesterOfPuppets

No bail for the driver. I'm impressed.

https://www.abc15.com/news/state/jud...SjJrJPg5e5Ao90

GamblerGORD53

One point missing in this chatter, is the truck just changed direction 2 or 3 SECONDS before the crash. He could have just been moving the visor and getting adjusted to the sun. IF the bikes were in the lane, then it could have been an impossible situation.
But it's still the drivers fault.

vespasianus

Your post if funny - but also really all wrong. You are confusing HIV and AIDS - not to mention SARS-CoV2 and COVID. And you are wrong about SARS-C0V2 as well.