M.Lou.B

Hello everyone, I hope you don't mind me chiming in at random.

I got my hands on a lovely Trek Multitrack 7300 vintage hybrid that is just excellent for commuting. The stock wheel set is really heavy, and due to the 135mm rear hub width my options are limited to hefty trekking wheels, so my plan is to build a custom set that's a bit lighter, a bit more sporty but not super flimsy. Somewhat allroad-bike inspired, but for 135mm hub and rim brakes.

The rims I plan on using are either the DT Swiss RR 411(lighter) or 511(heavier but sturdier).

While the front wheel with its 100mm hub looks straight forward, the rear requires a 135mm hub. I'd love to do a 3 cross lacing with 28 spokes (maybe 24 in the front). Best option I could find was a Hope Pro 4 hub but that's around 250€.

I was wondering if anyone here can recommend an alternative (135mm 28hole) hub, or perhaps if lacing a 28 rim with a 32(or something)hub is an option.

Thank you and best regards,
M.Lou.B

KCT1986

Rear hubs for 28H and 135mm OLD is not very common and will need to be one of the 'exotic' brands or XTR for Shimano. As you have found, these are more expensive than necessary.

For your model bike, why bother with 28H for the rear? Just use the lighter rim option in 32H with quality butted spokes on a good MTB hub.

If you insist on doing 28H, respacing a road hub is possible. Depending on your preference and requirement, you may or may not need a longer axle. Many road hubs are listed at 130mm but are more like 131mm. Adding 4mm or so will leave you about 3mm of axle on each side to fit within the dropout. This may be enough, depending on your bikes total loaded weight and intended use.

M.Lou.B

Hi KTC1986,

thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate your help!

I've been considering the 130mm option. My frame is aluminium and the rear dropout measures precisely 135mm. I'm afraid to put any unintended stress onto it. Some people have also recommended adding spacers, combined with a longer axle as you mentioned.

Will a 32H wheel with a lighter rim be lighter and/or more sturdy than a 28H with a robust gravely rim?

As for the intended use: commuting, occasional bike packing, 90% asphalt, lots of curbs. rack with 1-2 bags used in daily commuting. I suppose the rear wheel needs to be quite strong while the front wheel can be a lot lighter. What are your recommendations?

Thank you again for your help. I felt embarrassed to post here and ask for help. Boy am I grateful for your advice though!

KCT1986

I don't know the specific rim options you mentioned so can't comment on the difference in sturdiness of each. Will say that 32h 3 cross lacing has been the standard for many years, and properly built is more than adequate for most uses.

A lot of resources are available online about wheel design and construction. A general knowledge of the factors that effect a wheel strength would be helpful.

Few things to consider:
When selecting rear hubs, don't choose a hub that has a wider freehub than you need. If you only need a hub for 8/9/10 speed, don't use a 11+ speed hub. The longer 11 speed freehub will shorten the offset from the hubs center to the right side spoke flange and increase the imbalance between the right & left spoke tension, which leads to a weaker wheel.

For the rear, an asymmetrical rim design will allow for better right/left balance. Do a search for info of this.

If you go the road hub route and add spacers, do all the spacers on the left side. This will effectively move the right flange further from the centerline and decrease the imbalance of spoke tension. Add the spacers before lacing and dish the wheel accordingly.

See the attached for how the triangulation of the wheel works. The rear wheel's right side will usually be steeper and have more tension than the left. Can't really avoid on a multi-speed hub.

The idea is the keep the rear wheel triangulation as similar to the front wheel's as possible, thus minimizing the imbalance of right/left spoke tension. This will allow both sides to have closer to ideal tension.

Hope this helps a little. Suggest you read-up on wheel design.

Russ Roth

I'm going to toss in that there is absolutely no reason, with your intended purpose to go 28h, and I like building light, fast, sturdy wheels. 32h isn't a significant number of holes over 28 when it comes to weight, and while for just cruising or commuting 28 is fine, when you suggest gravel, luggage or light touring, just go to 32. Its a better, more reliable number and just not that heavy.
You mentioned the cost of Hope hubs in Euros so I'm guessing you're in Europe. Hopes are nice, I'm looking at a 24h set for my daughter's race bike, but for general riding, commuting my preferred hub tends towards a shimano XT. You can get new, current generation ones for about 100.00 a pair, about 80.00 in Europe. Or pick up some NOS previous generations, couple months ago I picked up a pair of 988 series XT hubs for 40.00 shipped, little dirt on them from sitting around the shop but obviously never laced. XT has a great weight, durability and price range.
Match it to a decent rim, unless you're going strictly road find something with a 18-21mm internal width. For rim brake I'd get something like a Velocity a23, or similar. Mavic, Sun, WTB and others have all offered a decent touring/hybrid rim that was a little wider but still just under 500g.
From there, just get a decent butted spoke, build 2x if you want, I tend to do 3x unless low spoke count or smaller wheels, but 2x won't really harm anything and you'll have a decent, reasonable weight wheelset that'll go anywhere.

M.Lou.B

Hi Russ! Good to see you on here.
Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate your input. Sounds like you understand exactly what I wish to accomplish, so your advice is gold!
I'll start looking for a 32H hub. The XT sounds like a great and affordable option. Thank you also for the rim recommendations. I'll be sure to check them out.

Again many thanks!

M.Lou.B

Hi KCT,
thank you! That sure helps!
Looks like I need to do a lot more reading to understand what needs to be done. The images help a lot. Thank you so much for explaining how and where to add the spacers if going down that route. I knew there was something important about the imbalanced spoke tension in the rear potentially causing issues, and that effort is put into minimizing that problem. The way you explain it makes a lot more sense though. I would love to do an asymmetrical design on the rear wheel if I can find a solution that I as the novice I am can pull off. I consider this more of a learning experience and do not expect to build a perfect wheel, but something that will function and won't actually kill me would be fine.
I will take your advice and definitely look into it.
Thank you very much for your help!

KCT1986

If you haven't already, you should at least read the Sheldon Brown article an Wheelbuilding, see the sticky on top of the Mechanics subforum and navigate to Wheels. This covers the basics of wheel design and some very useful insights. Some of the info is a little dated but applicable still.

Most of the info that I posted prior gives you a little more detail that may be more applicable to 'today'. Consideration for 11/12/13 speed freehubs, disk brakes and asymmetrical rims are relatively new.

Attached is a diagram of how asymmetrical rims effects spoke tension balance. Note that it is not to scale and done to graphically exaggerate the effect.

Overall, if you build with quality rims, 32H, 3 cross of butted spokes, on good hubs, the wheels should be fine. I just put in a few ideas that you may incorporate when selecting components that may strengthen the wheel.

M.Lou.B

Hi KCT, thank you so much for your help.
I'll be sure to check out the Sheldon Brown article on Wheelbuilding. Is it this one here? https://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Some people seem to really like the 1:2 lacing or triplet lacing of the rear wheel to "solve" the uneven spoke tension issue. However, I can't really find any tutorials on this, it requires a spokes/hole number dividable by 3, and a rim without alternating spoke holes, so that limits choices quite drastically. What are your experiences?

The asymmetric rim diagram you posted makes a lot of sense here. It looks like a good compromise. Out of curiosity, how does it compare to the 2:1 ratio solution?

Thank you for all the immensely helpful info!

KCT1986

Yes, the Sheldon article is the one.

Have looked at the 2:1 pattern but never studied it enough to assess the possible benefits or challenges. All the rims I've worked with have normal staggered spoke drilling and made of alum., so not good for 2:1.

For your situation, my choice would be to select:
Shimano hub, easier to find and get replacement parts
32H, standard balance for weight & stability
135mm OLD, fits without any adjustment to cones or spacers, has adequate balance between L & R spoke tension
8/9/10 speed as opposed to 11, for shorter freehub body and better L & R spoke tension
Butted spokes, save weight and has some stretch under load to maintain tension
3 cross, good strength since stress is distributed among more spokes and different points on the rim
Asym rim if available, better L & R spoke tension

Current Shimano offering for 10 speed hubs are limited as they move towards disk brakes and through axles. The FH-T610 (trekking, touring series) seems to be a good option, with some dust sealing and reasonably good dishing. Don't know what older model hubs are available in your area right now. If you find some other older MTB models, it should also work well.

M.Lou.B

Hello KCT,

thanks so much for your help. I've done some more reading and ended up with this:

2 very nice 32H Shimano hubs:
- 100mm XT Trekking Hub in front
- 135mm MTB disc hub in rear - paired with asymmetric rim creates an almost symmetrical spoke length
- DT-Swiss RR 411 rims with 32H, front symmetric, rear asymmetric. The rims came with nipples and washers.

I have calculated the spoke length using https://spokecalc.io and ended up with 295mm front, 290 and 291mm rear for a 3x pattern. This creates another problem though:
The spoke length for the two sides of the rear wheel is only 1 mm difference. ParkTool suggests using one spoke length for both, opting for the longer one. In my case that'd be 291mm - however, in my country they are only available in 2mm increments, so 290mm and 292mm. There is no 291mm available.
If I were to purchase both 290 and 292mm, this would slightly increase the rear wheel's asymmetric spoke length and tension.

If I opted for a 2x pattern, this wouldn't be an issue, I'd end up with 288mm front and 280/280mm rear, but also a flimsier wheel set that would be a whopping 10g lighter.

So now what? 3x with 290/292mm spokes in the back creating more asymmetry, or 2x and flimsier?

Thank you again for your help. I really, really appreciate this!

KCT1986

Just to confirm, the washers are for rim/nipple interface correct? If so, has this been factored in the ERD calculation? Not really sure exactly how your washer will effect the ERD or how the rim ERD was arrived at.

As far the spoke lengths, whether you use different spokes lengths for each side has no effect on the asymmetry. The rim will still be the same position when dished correctly. The only difference would be that if you use the same length on each side, one side will have the spoke further into the nipple.

As for, choosing the shorter or longer of the available lengths, it should be fine either way. The general acceptable length would be with the end of the spoke between the bottom of the screwdriver slot and the top of the head. This is usually about 2mm on most nipples. Additionally, with brass nipples, another 1mm or so short of the slot should not be an issue. On the long end, you can have the spoke extend beyond the end of the by 1mm or so. So, you do have some leeway. Knowing exactly how the ERD was measured is key,

With 32H, either 2x or 3x is fine, 3x more common.

M.Lou.B

Hi KTC,

the ERD was provided by the manufacturer as 601mm.
I followed ParkTool's tutorial on taking all the measurements, except the ERD as neither me nor my boyfriend had any random spokes laying around.
Considering it's DT-Swiss and that the nipples and washers were included with the rims, I assume it was most likely factured into the ERD. What do you think?

Thank you so much for explaing just how much leeway there is, and that a 2x pattern would also work for the 32H setup. I'm looking forward to building the wheels as they will probably reduce my bike's weight by 1kg (2lbs) while still being reasonable. I'm really grateful to have found this forum and to receive so much help and technical information. Thanks again for all your support!

KCT1986

Since you are using the DT info and they require the washer, you would expect that the measurement would be accurate with the washer included.

DT measures ERD to the bottom of the screwdriver slot on normal style nipples so 'rounding' up to available even spokes is fine. From the 'bottom of the slot', +2 or +3 is OK, -1 should also be OK since the end should still be deep enough into the nipple head.

M.Lou.B

Whoa! You really KNOW your stuff. May I ask if you are by chance a wheel builder for a living? You've been incredibly helpful. I cannot thank you enough.

Can you tell me something about inward/outward facing spokes? I've learnt it has something to do with the stress the spokes are subjected to by pedaling (and disc brakes). The old wheels on my bike are 32H and the inward facing spokes are the ones aimed forward / pushing into the driving direction, the backwards facing / pulling spokes are facing outwards. Since my new wheel set will also feature J bend spokes, though with a 2x pattern, I am wondering if I should insert the spokes just like they are on the old wheel set, or if I should do it differently and why.

What's your opinion on this?
Thanks again!

KCT1986

Not a professional wheelbuilder, but have done quite a few builds and rebuilds over the years.

As for in/out orientation, opinions vary on the benefits or lack thereof. Since you have a disk hub, may as will lace with the backward facing spokes facing inward (head out), since this would put the put the forward spokes facing outward (head in). This would place the disk braking spokes in the (debatably) stronger position. This is opposite what your current wheel seems to be, but would be the pattern that you would get if you followed the lacing instruction on the Park Tools or Sheldon Brown site. Sounds like your current wheel is like #1 (top & bottom) in the diagram, Park & Sheldon will give you #2.
.

In the future, if you do get a bike with disk brakes, the wheel would be usable. Some people recommend 32h, 3x for disks, but for the rear it shouldn't matter since braking force is greater on the front wheel.

M.Lou.B

Hi, it's me.

I wanted to give a huge THANK YOU to KCT1986 for all the useful help, the great advice and the really helpful explanations with pictures. After a couple re-attempts at lacing and having ordered the wrong front hub - twice - I am happy to report that the new wheel set turned out to be a huge success. They are lighter and stronger than their ancient predecessors, and they look really great. My bf who helped is really excited about them too! Despite having quite some experience, wheel building was a topic that he hadn't dared venturing into, and now we feel like the horizon is no longer restricted by what happens to be on the market. Thank you so, so much for expanding our world!
Thanks to Russ Roth as well for the great advice on general bike upgrades and for the nice conversations. I really enjoyed our exchange.


The wheel set (DT-Swiss RR411 rims and spokes, Shimano XT / Deore hubs, 32H 2x) has survived this weekend's 100km ride including gravel, pot holes, mud and a cobble stone rode - without self-destructing! =)

Long story short, here is a snapshot from this weekend with the finished results of all the upgrades since purchasing Napoleon in December 21. He's come a long way, and me too, having learnt so much throughout the process. Thanks again for all the help!
He's become a loyal companion for commuting and bike packing, and he makes a great sporty hybrid bike.

Here are the snapshots. Enjoy!


We bought him for 250€ in last December after he'd spent the past 20 years getting scratched up in a garage.
And that's him now =) Totally worth every penny spent on upgrade parts!

The new rear wheel with Napoleon's original freshly cleaned Shimano 8 speed

KCT1986

[QUOTE=M.Lou.B;22461358]Hi, it's me.

I wanted to give a huge THANK YOU to KCT1986 for all the useful help, the great advice and the really helpful explanations with pictures. After a couple re-attempts at lacing and having ordered the wrong front hub - twice - I am happy to report that the new wheel set turned out to be a huge success. They are lighter and stronger than their ancient predecessors, and they look really great. My bf who helped is really excited about them too! Despite having quite some experience, wheel building was a topic that he hadn't dared venturing into, and now we feel like the horizon is no longer restricted by what happens to be on the market. Thank you so, so much for expanding our world!
Thanks to Russ Roth as well for the great advice on general bike upgrades and for the nice conversations. I really enjoyed our exchange.


The wheel set (DT-Swiss RR411 rims and spokes, Shimano XT / Deore hubs, 32H 2x) has survived this weekend's 100km ride including gravel, pot holes, mud and a cobble stone rode - without self-destructing! =)

Long story short, here is a snapshot from this weekend with the finished results of all the upgrades since purchasing Napoleon in December 21. He's come a long way, and me too, having learnt so much throughout the process. Thanks again for all the help!
He's become a loyal companion for commuting and bike packing, and he makes a great sporty hybrid bike.

Glad to hear that you got the wheels built. Ride it a bit and then check it & adjust if needed as things settle in. It is common that the wheels may become slightly 'out of true' after the initial build and early miles. A lot depends on how the 'stress relieving' was done and if any residual spoke twist remained during the initial build.

Nice set-up on the bike, looks like a very 'do everything' piece.