Horizontal Dropouts: Why??
#51
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Any design that requires that use of a specific component rubs me the wrong way. Case in point….I’ve got a 1980’s bike with vertical drop outs. It originally came with 20c tires. I quickly switched to 23c after a bunch of flats. Now I run 25s on it and have to be careful that I don’t use a “wide” 25 or the tires won’t fit. Now if they had just used horizontal dropouts, I’d have some flexibility.
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#52
Strong Walker
Also the Klein variant seems to put the rear axle in a different position in relation to the RD hanger eyelet (right?) this might mess with the RD geometry,
#53
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They may have some utility after all.
#54
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Not racers having horizontal dropouts replaced.
Not racers doing that replacement though.
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#56
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While the issue I have with this frame is not removal of the wheel, but rather non original spec tires rubbing on the stays, I went back and looked at the frame in question as well as others, and agree that longer stays would have solved the problem. In retrospect, it’s this frame that turned me off on vertical dropouts. Between the short stays and my poor grasp of dishing wheels during the time I regularly rode this frame, the tire clearance issues I encountered have made me avoid vertical dropouts in the years since.
They may have some utility after all.
They may have some utility after all.
Again, your issue on that bike is that the chain stays are too short. I can't see how horizontal dropouts would cure that - in fact, would make it worse with the same chain stay length.
Not sure what you mean. I find it easier to replace a rear wheel with vertical dropouts vs horizontals. Pic courtesy of @djkashuba
1979 Centurion ProTour: Easy on, easy off
Oh, many have asked, very few have actually had me do it after quoting the price. It's a pain in the rear. The few times I have done it I've found it easier to remove the seat stays, braze in the new dropouts onto the chain stays, then braze in the seat stays. Getting 4 points of connection nailed down perfectly so the wheel is centered and not tilted using original stays is damn hard. My point is that there are many people with horizontals wanting verticals, but I haven't found the reverse. Especially here in the PNW where more months are ridden with fenders than without, getting a rear wheel out with verticals is a snap. With horiziontals, the fender often makes it nearly impossible to remove a rear wheel unless you let the air out.
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#57
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The horizontal dropouts on my Columbus SLX Tommasini were chrome-plated. No matter how tight I made the QR skewer, the nuts would not bite, even if they were knurled. Over-tightening the QR caused the rear axle to bend or even break. It was a nightmare. I sold the frameset to a guy who converted it into a fixie.
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The horizontal dropouts on my Columbus SLX Tommasini were chrome-plated. No matter how tight I made the QR skewer, the nuts would not bite, even if they were knurled. Over-tightening the QR caused the rear axle to bend or even break. It was a nightmare. I sold the frameset to a guy who converted it into a fixie.
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Oh, those dropouts are hard to find? You mean in 120 years, no one has made a pile of them? Shame. I'm not the entrepreneur. I just drew up mine and had TiCyles build it. Outside of it being ti, there is nothing about it that couldn't have been done early last century with hand tools.
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Additional Thoughts On Dropouts
Shimano introduced SIS commercially for the 1985 model year. At that time the vast majority of European pro teams were still using horizontal dropouts. The only exceptions that I recall were were the Vitus based PY10FC of the Peugeot team, the Vitus 979 of the Skil-Sem team and the Alans of the Teka and Varta - Café de Columbia teams.
If you examine 1985 race photos, advertisement and catalogues, you'll find that the the bicycles supplied to the following teams were equipped with horizontal dropouts: La View Claire (Hinault), Panasonic - Raleigh, Lotto (Eddy Merckx), Kelme (Eddy Merckx), Hitachi (Splendor), Sommontana (Bianchi), Carrera (Battaglin), Renault - Elf (Gitane), Ariostea (De Rosa), Malvor (Bottecchia), Gis - Trentino (Moser), Kwantum - Decosol (Colnago), Del Tongo - Colnago, Safir - Van De Ven (Colnago), Atala - Camapgnolo, La Redoute (Motobecane), Fagor (Zeus), Zor (Zeus), Alpilatte (Olmo), Gin - MG (Orbea), Reynolds (Pinarello).
The only major European based pro teams using bicycles with vertical dropouts were those with aluminum or carbon frame frames. The vast majority were still using steel frames with horizontal dropouts. If you look at the bicycle industry in 1985, vertical dropouts were used primarily on non-ferrous frames, grand touring bicycles and ATBs. Yes, there were some exceptions, but the industry as a whole, and road racing in particular, was still overwhelmingly steel frames with horizontal dropouts. Indexing would become the prime factor in reversing that situation.
If you examine 1985 race photos, advertisement and catalogues, you'll find that the the bicycles supplied to the following teams were equipped with horizontal dropouts: La View Claire (Hinault), Panasonic - Raleigh, Lotto (Eddy Merckx), Kelme (Eddy Merckx), Hitachi (Splendor), Sommontana (Bianchi), Carrera (Battaglin), Renault - Elf (Gitane), Ariostea (De Rosa), Malvor (Bottecchia), Gis - Trentino (Moser), Kwantum - Decosol (Colnago), Del Tongo - Colnago, Safir - Van De Ven (Colnago), Atala - Camapgnolo, La Redoute (Motobecane), Fagor (Zeus), Zor (Zeus), Alpilatte (Olmo), Gin - MG (Orbea), Reynolds (Pinarello).
The only major European based pro teams using bicycles with vertical dropouts were those with aluminum or carbon frame frames. The vast majority were still using steel frames with horizontal dropouts. If you look at the bicycle industry in 1985, vertical dropouts were used primarily on non-ferrous frames, grand touring bicycles and ATBs. Yes, there were some exceptions, but the industry as a whole, and road racing in particular, was still overwhelmingly steel frames with horizontal dropouts. Indexing would become the prime factor in reversing that situation.
When I started racing in the early 1970s, it was still very popular to use fixed gears for early season training. However, the reason had nothing to do with derailleur contamination, as you were still doing more frequent bearing overhauls and chain cleaning. The reason was to force the legs to be constantly moving, to reintroduce muscle memory for pedaling and get your spin back.
CADENCE is a term I rarely see used these days. When spinning (while riding) I also learned about Cadence. I was soon able to pedal at a cadence of 90 rpm all day long on the flats and rolling hills.
For most cyclists in the US, a derailleur enabled the use of low gears for climbing hills. During the Bike Boom Fad, Alpine gearing with a 14-28T 5 Speed FW and 52-42T chain rings (also 40T & 36T) became the standard. Back then bike racing was almost unknown in the US market even though the buzz word was "10 Speed Racing Bike"! "Eddy WHO!"
For competitive cyclists who were fairly uncommon in the US back then, a 13-21T FW with 52-42T chainrings were De rigueur! Anyone using a 23T or 24T large sprocket was a gurly man!
The idea behind close ratio gearing was a rider could maintain the same Cadence over varying terrain and only went to the "low" gears for climbing!
Jobst Brandt and a friend riding the Alps with 13-22T FWs and 53-42T chainrings. He and his friends used to ride all over the passes in the Alps every summer. They did "Credit Card Touring".
A lot of those frames were built with vertical dropouts most likely for use on bikes with fenders also randonneur bikes with bags. Simplex and Huret produced vertical dropouts but many constructeurs made their own. For the most part, horizontal were far more popular.
Simplex vertical dropouts.
Things were similar in the UK but amateur bicycle competition seems to have been more popular than in some other countries. A customer bought a bike for transportation as well as for sport. As I mentioned above horizontal dropouts allowed a cyclist the flexibility to use fixed gears or a single speed freewheel, an internal gear hub or a derailleur with a multi sprocket freewheel.
Attachments were available that mounted on the forks for carrying "sprints" - tubular wheels so they could ride to a race on clinchers and then switch wheels for the competition.
Time Trials, criteriums and similar types of events were very popular. Many bikes made for those events had short wheelbases for stiffness including very short chain stays. Vertical dropouts became very popular because you could change rear wheels without deflating the tire. A lot of those frames came with Campagnolo 1060 stamped steel dropouts.
An "Alpine" criterium frame that I had that was made in the UK with 75° angles and a super short wheel base plus lots of toe clip overlap.
A lot of frames and bikes made during the 1980's had short rear triangles for use with 20mm-23mm tires. They would have been better served with vertical dropouts.
For example my 1983 Colnago Super...
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
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Last edited by verktyg; 05-04-22 at 06:19 AM.
#62
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I'm afraid I'd be using 'gurly' ratios, but I did have a Renault 12 estate like the one pictured.
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This thread makes me more comfortable with my dropout choice for my frame. I'm still waiting for them to arrive, but I got vertical dropouts in stainless steel. The bike will have fenders, and I like the idea of not wrecking the paint when securing wheels to the frame.
Last edited by smontanaro; 05-04-22 at 01:55 PM.
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#65
Newbie
Klein dropouts
[QUOTE=gugie;22493868]Several years ago, back in Cali I was on a long ride and caught up with a group of riders headed my way. One of them was complaining about the road surface condition, and asked me what I thought of it. I was riding 35mm wide tires, no problems I said. He couldn't get anything wide than 25's due to clearance issues. For the life of me I don't see any real advantage of having 1mm of clearance between tire and brake (which is what he had). Maybe a split second on a 40km time trial due to better aerodynamics?
Again, your issue on that bike is that the chain stays are too short. I can't see how horizontal dropouts would cure that - in fact, would make it worse with the same chain stay length.
Not sure what you mean. I find it easier to replace a rear wheel with vertical dropouts vs horizontals. Pic courtesy of @djkashuba
1979 Centurion ProTour: Easy on, easy off
I am speaking of the difficulties of fast change with the rearward facing Klein dropouts. No issue with forward facing vertical dropouts.
Again, your issue on that bike is that the chain stays are too short. I can't see how horizontal dropouts would cure that - in fact, would make it worse with the same chain stay length.
Not sure what you mean. I find it easier to replace a rear wheel with vertical dropouts vs horizontals. Pic courtesy of @djkashuba
1979 Centurion ProTour: Easy on, easy off
I am speaking of the difficulties of fast change with the rearward facing Klein dropouts. No issue with forward facing vertical dropouts.
#66
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[QUOTE=MCHunt;22495109]Thanks for the clarification. I didn't remember the Klein dropouts, but I can see the issue.
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This thread makes me more comfortable with my dropout choice for my frame. I'm still waiting for them to arrive, but I got vertical dropouts in stainless steel. The bike will have fenders, and I like three idea of not wrecking the paint when securing wheels to the frame.
Steve in Peoria
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