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How hard do I fight this issue b4 I change everything?

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How hard do I fight this issue b4 I change everything?

Old 09-24-22, 09:26 PM
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BianchiBravaUS
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How hard do I fight this issue b4 I change everything?

Issue ..

on a 2003 Bianchi Brava with Sora gearset.. front derailleur failed after 980 miles and a next generation Sora was installed.(3X)

Never been the same since.

The newer generation seems to have a narrower range of motion and is impossible to get to the big sprocket unless I assist buy pulling on the cable and then the clamp-on (with the correct size adapters for the 28.6mm post) will eventually pull the derailleur down and into the teeth. No matter how tight I get it, the cable seems way over tightened in order to get to the outer sprocket.


I am planning to learn what I need to someday upgrade to a 105 gearset but I am still puzzled by what is needed to get this 118mm BB to accept a Hollowtech II so I can upgrade.

The research continues ..


Meantime, Any suggestions on getting this mismatched combo to function so I can get back to riding?


Thanks to all for what you contribute.
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Old 09-24-22, 10:23 PM
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My first instinct is that something(s) obvious is missing here

So before moving on let's review.

Right clamp and shim?
Clamp has room to close, ears don't touch?
Seat tube clean and dry?
Cable routed correctly and to correct side of pinch bolt?
Outer limit backed out far enough?
Tested by using hand pressure directly on FD arm?

That's just the warmup before we consider anything tricky.
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Old 09-25-22, 05:52 AM
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Are you sure the replacement dr is for 3x? What is the series number stamped on the back side plate?
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Old 09-25-22, 09:39 AM
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I wonder if the cog count the two different ft ders are were different too. If the OEM Sora was an 8 speed and the replacement was a 9 cog one the cage width and the amount of travel will be different. If this is true, the obvious solution is to source an 8 speed ft der that has a X3 shaped cage too.We are more and more often going to Microshift products as the Shimano offerings slide down in grade with each year. Andy
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Old 09-25-22, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
I wonder if the cog count the two different ft ders are were different too. If the OEM Sora was an 8 speed and the replacement was a 9 cog one the cage width and the amount of travel will be different. If this is true, the obvious solution is to source an 8 speed ft der that has a X3 shaped cage too.We are more and more often going to Microshift products as the Shimano offerings slide down in grade with each year. Andy
I think you have hit it square on the head. The generation as purchased was a 3◊8 and next came the 3◊9 so there it is.
thank you for that.
What 2 do is yet to come.
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Old 09-25-22, 07:18 PM
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FWIW. Even though Andy has nailed at least a key problem I'm not sure that's the only thing wrong.

The fact that the FD is sliding down indicates either, something wrong with the clamp, or crazy excessive cable force. Also, even if the derailleur cannot index properly, it should be able to reach out to the largest sprocket.

The fact that it doesn't means that, either the OP doesn't know how to set limit screws, or that the derailleur itself is reaching the end of its travel even with the limit backed out all the way.


If the OP goes back and reads my initial response and verifies all the conditions I listed, especially as regards to the clamp and the manual activation test for cage travel I might be able to offer some suggestions which will allow him to get this derailleur to work, if not perfectly at least reasonably well.
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Old 09-25-22, 07:57 PM
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Since Shimano never made a Sora 3X model, an FD-R3000 is not the next generation.

Shimano went from 3300 to 3400 to 3500 to R3000. The FD-R3000 double is not compatible with any 7, 8, 9, or non-4700 10 speed road shifter since it has a different actuation ratio.

So, if the replacement is an FD-R3000 it will never work… well technically it might with a mtb shifter, but I digress.

John
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Old 09-26-22, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Since Shimano never made a Sora 3X model, an FD-R3000 is not the next generation.

Shimano went from 3300 to 3400 to 3500 to R3000. The FD-R3000 double is not compatible with any 7, 8, 9, or non-4700 10 speed road shifter since it has a different actuation ratio.

So, if the replacement is an FD-R3000 it will never work… well technically it might with a mtb shifter, but I digress.

John
Not sure I'm reading you correctly.

I agree that the FD-R3000 won't work well if at all on a front triple - it's a double FD. But are you also saying Sora R3000 isn't available with a front triple?

According to Shimano, the R3000-series is available with a front triple. The triple FD is FD-R3030-F (braze-on) or FD-R3030-B (clamp-on). The corresponding left shifters are ST-R3030-L (STI) or SL-R3030-L (flat bar). Crank is FC-R3030.

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ...T-R3030-L.html
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Old 09-26-22, 08:21 AM
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I mis-read Sora 3X to represent a model number not a triple FD.

Yes any Sora triple FD should work with a 9 or even an 8 speed Shimano triple STI shifter. It shouldn’t matter if it is 8 or 9 FD as I have mixed and matched them without any problems.

John
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Old 09-26-22, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I mis-read Sora 3X to represent a model number not a triple FD.

Yes any Sora triple FD should work with a 9 or even an 8 speed Shimano triple STI shifter. It shouldnít matter if it is 8 or 9 FD as I have mixed and matched them without any problems.

John
Well, looks like we're now in violent agreement.
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Old 09-26-22, 11:47 PM
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9-speed front derailleurs never work right with 8-speed chains. Trust me, I tried it per the advice of a co-worker. The cage is too narrow for the chain, and if it doesn't overshift, it will at least rub like crazy.

Older Sora and Tiagra front derailleurs broke like crazy. The end of the return spring is anchored on a tiny nub that eventually breaks off. This was never a problem with 105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace. The current generation uses a bigger nub.

Claris is 8-speed. You need a Claris triple front derailleur. If your local shop can't get you one, these fine folks have it, in stock, no less. https://www.bikepartsusa.com/Product-...IS-TRIPLE-prk/

Last edited by oldbobcat; 09-27-22 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 09-27-22, 08:08 AM
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As mentioned in post #4 Microshift makes a good solid replacement for 8sp triples. Can be had for under $25 delivered. Road 3x Front Derailleurs | microSHIFT Try the suggestions in post #2 first though before buying any new parts.
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Old 09-27-22, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
FWIW. Even though Andy has nailed at least a key problem I'm not sure that's the only thing wrong.

The fact that the FD is sliding down indicates either, something wrong with the clamp, or crazy excessive cable force. Also, even if the derailleur cannot index properly, it should be able to reach out to the largest sprocket.

The fact that it doesn't means that, either the OP doesn't know how to set limit screws, or that the derailleur itself is reaching the end of its travel even with the limit backed out all the way.


If the OP goes back and reads my initial response and verifies all the conditions I listed, especially as regards to the clamp and the manual activation test for cage travel I might be able to offer some suggestions which will allow him to get this derailleur to work, if not perfectly at least reasonably well.
yep, the op was hit with the "first 24 hrs" limit.
I have gone through the learning curve with all mention so far. It is a 3x but not home to confirm but 9o% sure it is a fd-r3030.
I am using the clamp rings that came with it to adapt to the 28.6 frame.
the only thing mentioned that I have not considered is the contamination of the frame b4 clamped on. The ears and position of the rings are correct.
thinking about the post I agree with, if a 3x9 front dr will need to have a wider cage then yes. It sounds logical. As does the considered microshift sold as a 3x8 is NOT compatible with a 3x9 (per shop selling it). Again, makes sense. I have tried for hours to get the tooth count of my original front gear set or even a picture of it.. no luck. But it is definitely different than what I am calling the "next generation ".
so I suspect the set matching the 3030 is narrow er.. than mine.
thus the tight pull at the end of travel.
Oh.. yes, the screw is not restricting the movement.
anyone else thinking I need to just go to the microshift on the front?
thanks!
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Old 09-27-22, 12:19 PM
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After I am out of super secret double probation...I will post supporting photos
😑
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Old 09-27-22, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Crankycrank View Post
As mentioned in post #4 Microshift makes a good solid replacement for 8sp triples. Can be had for under $25 delivered. Road 3x Front Derailleurs | microSHIFT Try the suggestions in post #2 first though before buying any new parts.
FWIW: Microshift also makes a replacement FD for 9sp triples, too. It's model FD-R353.

At least one vendor on Amazon is selling them for a bit under $25 with free shipping - but with sales tax added, it will likely be a bit over $25.

They also make two different FDs for 10-speed triples. One supports 50T max large chainrings; the other 52T max large chainrings.

Last edited by Hondo6; 09-27-22 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Add info regarding 10-sp road triple FDs.
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Old 09-27-22, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BianchiBravaUS View Post
After I am out of super secret double probation...I will post supporting photos
😑
I believe that happens after you have 10 posts. If so, you're getting close.
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Old 09-27-22, 02:00 PM
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Took me months to get my front sora 3x working properly and in the end it came down to random luck really.
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Old 09-27-22, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6 View Post
FWIW: Microshift also makes a replacement FD for 9sp triples, too. It's model FD-R353.

At least one vendor on Amazon is selling them for a bit under $25 with free shipping - but with sales tax added, it will likely be a bit over $25.

They also make two different FDs for 10-speed triples. One supports 50T max large chainrings; the other 52T max large chainrings.
But he has an 8-speed chain. But, yeah, Microshift derailleurs are a worthwhile substitute.
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Old 09-27-22, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DonkeyShow View Post
Took me months to get my front sora 3x working properly and in the end it came down to random luck really.
When you follow a procedure it starts to make sense.
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Old 09-28-22, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
When you follow a procedure it starts to make sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNG7g83lI-s
Too tight of a cable in the big chainring when setting up triple indexed Shimano FDís could be caused by the common installation error that folks make when pulling cable at the beginning of the process.

The mistake is made when running cable at the start. Folks typically put the chain on the granny ring after setting the stops. They then pull the inner cable snug and tighten the cinch bolt. Then they test the shifting and find that they cannot get into the big chainring at all or if they do, the cable is exceptionally tight. The solution is to start over again in the granny ring but this time use the set-up block or a 5mm Allen key to hold the FD pivot out midway between the granny and the middle ring. Then pull the inner wire and tighten the cinch bolt. Now test if you can shift into the big chainring. You should be able to now and without excessive cable tension. I have found that the Shimano installation instructions rarely emphasize the importance of this step.
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Old 09-28-22, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
When you follow a procedure it starts to make sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNG7g83lI-s
That's the exact video I used. Still kinda hard to get it right doing it the first time ever.
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Old 09-28-22, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Too tight of a cable in the big chainring when setting up triple indexed Shimano FDís could be caused by the common installation error that folks make when pulling cable at the beginning of the
+1 on this. For initial installation of this generation of shimano FD, itís important to follow the shimano instructions exactly. If you just put it on like youíre used to doing, itíll likely end up not quite right. I suggest starting over with their instructions rather than the Park video, especially the cable routing.
Symptoms suggest that your cable is attached in a way that is reducing the leverage so you have to put too much force on it.
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Old 09-28-22, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DonkeyShow View Post
That's the exact video I used. Still kinda hard to get it right doing it the first time ever.
I link to Park Tools because most people who run into trouble are not looking at all the elements. They focus on cable tension or limit screws without looking at derailleur alignment. Or they'll focus on cable tension without looking at limit screws.

Beyond the video, my tips and tricks include: (1) Shimano front derailleurs require less cable tension than you'd think in order to index properly; the exception is 11-speed road and Tiagra 4700. And I've seen where too much tension just pushes the chain against the larger ring with so much force that it just hangs there. Jamming prevents the ramps on the rings and the ridges on the inner plate from lifting the chain. (2) I generally position the derailleur lower than Park's recomendation, about 1.5-2.0 mm above the tallest tooth on big ring; and Shimano rings have unequal length teeth. (3) Indexed front derailleur adjustment without a workstand is extremely difficult. (4) Sometimes you need to cheat a little, like tail the unit out a smidge, or raise the unit because somebody installed an oversize middle ring. (5) Most of the problems are in hitting the big ring without overshifting. I've struggled on this for hours, and what it always comes down to is turning the cranks very slowly and watching every step of the chain as it's pushed off the smaller ring and lifted onto the big one. Sometimes it will just hang over the outer edge and not drop down onto the teeth. And more times than I can count, slow motion revealed a damaged ring.

And I can't count the times I've seen that some ham-fisted mechanic bent the outer plate inward without first trying to align the unit correctly.

Last edited by oldbobcat; 09-28-22 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 09-28-22, 03:50 PM
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"use the set-up block or a 5mm Allen key to hold the FD pivot out midway between the granny and the middle ring."

This is another "ah-HA" moment!
Referring to the history .. I had a shop install the replacement and they did not use the correct adaptor ring for my 28mm frame post. Thus I have been trying to perform the setup (reset-up) without that block. All this time I have been asking people where the adjustment setting should be when I start - lose, tight or somewhere in the middle? They all just stared at me like I was speaking Japanese.

Now I know a 5mm Allen Key in the midway point will get me where to start - I may get this going without another purchase yet.

I still understand that a 3x front DR for a 9 speed is not the perfect match for a 3x8 gearset, but if setup precisely, I may get by till I am ready to upgrade to .. 105 or whatever (nuther discussion)

Great responses from all of ya! Thanks!

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Old 09-29-22, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
I link to Park Tools because most people who run into trouble are not looking at all the elements. They focus on cable tension or limit screws without looking at derailleur alignment. Or they'll focus on cable tension without looking at limit screws.

Beyond the video, my tips and tricks include: (1) Shimano front derailleurs require less cable tension than you'd think in order to index properly; the exception is 11-speed road and Tiagra 4700. And I've seen where too much tension just pushes the chain against the larger ring with so much force that it just hangs there. Jamming prevents the ramps on the rings and the ridges on the inner plate from lifting the chain. (2) I generally position the derailleur lower than Park's recomendation, about 1.5-2.0 mm above the tallest tooth on big ring; and Shimano rings have unequal length teeth. (3) Indexed front derailleur adjustment without a workstand is extremely difficult. (4) Sometimes you need to cheat a little, like tail the unit out a smidge, or raise the unit because somebody installed an oversize middle ring. (5) Most of the problems are in hitting the big ring without overshifting. I've struggled on this for hours, and what it always comes down to is turning the cranks very slowly and watching every step of the chain as it's pushed off the smaller ring and lifted onto the big one. Sometimes it will just hang over the outer edge and not drop down onto the teeth. And more times than I can count, slow motion revealed a damaged ring.

And I can't count the times I've seen that some ham-fisted mechanic bent the outer plate inward without first trying to align the unit correctly.

OK... That Ah -HA moment turned into another Ah-Sh1t! moment.
It is working on the rack right now but I have lost faith in it working on the road.
Here is what I have learned - from all of these great responses and by my own hands and observation.

1) anyone who has a silver (chrome?) 3x soros set of gears and has a newer front DR with a black clamp-on like mine .. and has it working must be on a frame that does not need an adaptor ring. i.e. larger than 28.6MM.
I say that because any .. I mean ANY kind of non metal material will have just enough "give" to not keep that DR stable enough to shift well. And if you use metal ring, it will slide eventually and DR will hit cogs
And I am torqueing it tight!.(strong argument for braze on designs or pull-up's like on MTB's)
2) The 5mm plug to keep the DR set for alignment on initial set ups is just to eyeball the alignment with the tall gear which BTW shows me that this DR is NOT compatible with my older (chrome vs black) gearset because with the plug in, it is still just shy of reaching alignment with the tall gear. So I take it that the gearset this DR was made for has a narrower width than mine. And BTW if I attach the cable at this point as suggested there is not enough tension to even get the DR to the second gear.
3) this is a big one cause really eluded me all this time till a few minutes ago.. The 2 or 3 mm over the top of the tall gear as a set up guideline is way off with this DR. Every time I tried to get it that close I failed miserably to get any movement and couldn't figure why till I watched the backside of the DR hit the middle gear and come to a dead stop! I never even hear it rub, weird. So the height has to be over a quarter of an inch above the big gear for clearance behind. More evidence of a serious mismatch of same name Soros sets
Now I can get to the tall gear, but just barley (yes - I need a drink!)

I have to ask -- Why in the world can't these manufactures list real spec's on these devices? like range of motion, width of gearset or actual compatibility charts?
Somewhere I read that to mix this 3x9 front DR with a 3x8 gearset will result in a constant "rub" while on the middle gear. It never has made sense to my brain why that can be, but .. Indeed that is what I am getting while on the rack and working all three rings.
That must be due to the geometry being so different on these gearsets as they change from one year to the next.
End rant..
I will let you all know if it is survivable or if I go to the next step of rebuild from the BB up.
Thanks again
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