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Beyond MegaRange: Extending 7-speed Cassette Range?

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Beyond MegaRange: Extending 7-speed Cassette Range?

Old 02-15-13, 04:37 AM
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john0
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Beyond MegaRange: Extending 7-speed Cassette Range?

I'm wondering if the range of a Shimano Tourney 14t-34t cassette/freewheel -- with a single chainring -- can be expanded.

Are there bigger cogs than 34t (and derailleurs that can shift to them)?

Sheldon Brown describes something complicated about special hubs being needed for 11t cogs. Does that apply also to 12t and 13t?

I notice that Shimano's own 7-speed 11-34 cassette and freewheel were discontinued. Is there something inherently problematic about this configuration?
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Old 02-15-13, 05:04 AM
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Problematic mechanically I mean -- not in terms of gear spacing preferences.
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Old 02-15-13, 07:03 AM
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In general, anything that starts with a 14-tooth cog is probably a thread-on freewheel not a cassette. Sheldon explains the difference, but you seem a little uncertain what you have, so I'd recommend reading this. Freewheels with sub-14-tooth top cogs are pretty unusual, and the ones that exist don't index with Shimano shifters as far as I'm aware, so in your case, a "special hub" would be the only way to get a smaller cog, because you'd need a cassette freehub rather than a hub that takes a thread-on freewheel.

With a cassette, you can customise the gearing by drilling out the rivets holding the sprockets together and then replacing individual sprockets as you see fit, but replacement sprockets for old-fashioned freewheels aren't really available anymore. Also, almost all modern cassette freehubs are designed for an 11-tooth small rear sprocket, so Sheldon's information regarding what works with current cassette hubs is a little out-of-date.
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Old 02-15-13, 07:15 AM
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The SRAM XXI system has a 10-42T 11 speed cassette with a single chainring.

It is designed for mountain bike use: for frames that can't use a front derailleur or for riders who have problem with dropping the chain from the chainrings of a double or triple crank. I haven't encountered either situation.

The downside is big gaps between gears.

Without using the SRAM components or modifying some other components, I don't think going larger than 34T will work, as you are limited by available rear derailleurs.

On the road, I think a rider who needs a very low gear (>34T) probably does not need a very high gear (a 11T), as he is not strong enough to use it, except on a downhill which is pointless, better to spin a high cadence or simply get in a tuck.
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Old 02-15-13, 07:52 AM
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I thought 34 was normally the bigges cog and needed shipmanos "Mega Range" RD? I think a 34x34 sounds pretty low already. You might be better off dropping to a 32 or 30T in the front. Depending on your crank you could mount a second ring like a 28T and just change by hand like in the old days.

OH just doing some research I guess Mega Range refers to the ridiculous spread from a 11 to a 34 cogset. But I still say a 34 is pretty big in the back.
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Old 02-15-13, 08:26 AM
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At some point it might be less hassle to just go with a double up front, unless you have some moral or aesthetic objection. Covering this type of extreme range is why the use of multiple front chainrings was developed.
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Old 02-15-13, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
I thought 34 was normally the bigges cog and needed shipmanos "Mega Range" RD? I think a 34x34 sounds pretty low already. You might be better off dropping to a 32 or 30T in the front. Depending on your crank you could mount a second ring like a 28T and just change by hand like in the old days.

OH just doing some research I guess Mega Range refers to the ridiculous spread from a 11 to a 34 cogset. But I still say a 34 is pretty big in the back.
Some peoples ridiculous is others peoples necessary. On my hilly commute I pretty much use that whole range every day. On good days I only use 11 through 32. And that is on a 48-36-22 triple.
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Old 02-15-13, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr
At some point it might be less hassle to just go with a double up front, unless you have some moral or aesthetic objection. Covering this type of extreme range is why the use of multiple front chainrings was developed.
I have a wild idea. a 3spd IGH with a 7spd cassette!

Originally Posted by Medic Zero
Some peoples ridiculous is others peoples necessary. On my hilly commute I pretty much use that whole range every day. On good days I only use 11 through 32. And that is on a 48-36-22 triple.
Very true. It just isn't that hilly around here, nor where I used to live near Boston so I never got used to super low gearing like that.
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Old 02-15-13, 09:26 AM
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IIRC Sun Tour (?) once offered a 14x38 freewheel. The problem with huge range freewheels and cassettes is that they have big gaps between adjacent gears and even 10 and 11-speed cassettes can't compensate. The simplicity of a single chainring gets compromised by lack of intermediate gears. You can't have it both ways

My first "good" bike was a 1985 Bridgestone 400 with a 14x32 6-speed Sun Tour freewheel and a 52/42 SR double crank. The freewheel was 14,16,20,24,28,32. Note the huge gap between the 16 and 20T cogs. I redid the crank as a half-step (46/42) to fill in those gaps but lost too much on top. .

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Old 02-15-13, 09:32 AM
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Some of the newer 9 or 10? speed cassettes are now coming out with a 36T cog, but that's not much of a gain over 34.
A smaller chain ring is the way to get lower gearing.
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Old 02-15-13, 09:36 AM
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Rebuild the wheel around a Sturmey or Sram Hybrid ,dual drive; 3 internal, cassette external gear, combination hub.
then the 34t is .75 lower.. the high, 1.333 higher.

current cassette driver type is 8~9 speed, 7 is a prior Sachs product, before Sram buyout. {ebay for used ones)
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Old 02-15-13, 11:30 AM
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IT's possible to convert a front tripple to a quad, I thint the part was called "mountain tamer" or something like that. Might be worth looking into.
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Old 02-15-13, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dabac
IT's possible to convert a front tripple to a quad, I thint the part was called "mountain tamer" or something like that. Might be worth looking into.
I've seen these offered mostly for tandems and the smallest "chainring" is actually a freewheel cog and it's threaded to a granny ring adapter. Here are links to some info on them:

https://www.abundantadventures.com/quads.html
https://www.abundantadventures.com/mt...g-removal.html
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Old 02-15-13, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Airburst
... Freewheels with sub-14-tooth top cogs are pretty unusual.....

hmm? 13T was the defacto standard high gear on better bikes in the freewheel days. 13-21, 13-24, and 13-26 were common 5 speed freewheels but you could build up most anything you wanted. the summer I lived in the flatlands, I ran a 13-17 'straight block'.
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Old 02-17-13, 01:59 AM
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OK so looks like customizing freewheels is impossible today (without antique parts).

Looks like customizing a 7-speed cassette for 11t-34t would be possible -- if a lot of work and expense just to replicate the Shimano 11-34 MegaRange freewheels and cassettes that were available a few years ago:

https://harriscyclery.net/product/shi...et-cog-801.htm
https://harriscyclery.net/product/shi...rocket-800.htm
spacers and such uncertain

No possibility to go beyond 34t on any 7-speed system ever due both to lack of bigger gears and derailleurs.
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Old 02-17-13, 02:25 AM
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most newer 7 speed systems can be converted to 8 speed with just a different shifter and the 8 speed cassette. that gives you a much bigger choice of cassettes.

but, SRAM has a 12-32 7 speed, thats a pretty wide range. difference between a 32 and 34 is only a few percent.

there's a shimano 13-34, which I'd RATHER have than 11-34.
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Old 02-17-13, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Airburst
In general, anything that starts with a 14-tooth cog is probably a thread-on freewheel not a cassette. Sheldon explains the difference, but you seem a little uncertain what you have, so I'd recommend reading this. Freewheels with sub-14-tooth top cogs are pretty unusual, and the ones that exist don't index with Shimano shifters as far as I'm aware, so in your case, a "special hub" would be the only way to get a smaller cog, because you'd need a cassette freehub rather than a hub that takes a thread-on freewheel.

With a cassette, you can customise the gearing by drilling out the rivets holding the sprockets together and then replacing individual sprockets as you see fit, but replacement sprockets for old-fashioned freewheels aren't really available anymore. Also, almost all modern cassette freehubs are designed for an 11-tooth small rear sprocket, so Sheldon's information regarding what works with current cassette hubs is a little out-of-date.
I'm not too sure if Shimano freewheels indexed with any Shimano brifters, but I am dead certain that freewheels with 13 tooth and even 12 tooth small sprockets were made and were regularly available, from Shimano, SunTour, and Sachs-Maillard.
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Old 02-17-13, 08:19 AM
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More generally, I've seen some ancient SunTour rear sprockets that are 38 teeth. It would take some surgical procedures to put one on an existing cassette or freewheel, but it gets you past 34. What rear derailleur/dropout combination can accommodate that, I don't know. You might find yourself getting into a gearing/derailleur combination that is unique, ancient, and very difficult to find a full group in good condition, and that might not even deliver what you expect on some frames.

If you need more range past the currently available 11/32 10-speed system which can be purchased off the shelf, I think you need to address the chainrings as well as the rear end. If you need to stick with the 7-speed spin-on freewheel, you can find a 13-34 Megarange, or if you hunt a 13-32 Sachs-Maillard 7-speed freewheel. SunTour also made some similar wide-range combinations. The Sachs and Suntour units usually had an even gear spread across the range, not the roadie-spread-plus-deep-bailout that the Megarange represents.
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Old 02-17-13, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pierce
most newer 7 speed systems can be converted to 8 speed with just a different shifter and the 8 speed cassette............
So how do you fit the longer 8 speed cassette on the shorter 7 speed free hub body?
Maybe if you said "some" , which would be the ones with the 8 speed body + 4.5mm spacer.
I would also think "most" 7 speed "systems" are a free wheel which means you'd have to change the hub.
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Old 02-17-13, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
I'm not too sure if Shimano freewheels indexed with any Shimano brifters, but I am dead certain that freewheels with 13 tooth and even 12 tooth small sprockets were made and were regularly available, from Shimano, SunTour, and Sachs-Maillard.
The key word is "were". I don't think they make them anymore, and if they do, I doubt the pricing will be anything like that of a Tourney freewheel.
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Old 02-17-13, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
So how do you fit the longer 8 speed cassette on the shorter 7 speed free hub body?
Maybe if you said "some" , which would be the ones with the 8 speed body + 4.5mm spacer.
I would also think "most" 7 speed "systems" are a free wheel which means you'd have to change the hub.
You can install a new free hub, which retails for about $30-35. Although I prefer the idea of building a dual drive to go with a triple, because more gears (81 in this case) are always better, right :-)?
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Old 02-19-13, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by john0
I'm wondering if the range of a Shimano Tourney 14t-34t cassette/freewheel -- with a single chainring -- can be expanded. Are there bigger cogs than 34t (and derailleurs that can shift to them)? Sheldon Brown describes something complicated about special hubs being needed for 11t cogs. Does that apply also to 12t and 13t? I notice that Shimano's own 7-speed 11-34 cassette and freewheel were discontinued. Is there something inherently problematic about this configuration?
I recently started down that path to build up a loaded mountain capable tourer based on the SRAM 11-36T 10spd cogset. However found that I couldn't find a cost effective 10spd crankset, resulting in a total bill that was too large. I ended up going 9spd using a 11-34T SRAM cogset, a FSA MegaEXO 9spd triple crank, and NASHBAR front and rear derailleurs to bring it home. The cogset was pricey at $58, but upon examination I fully agree that its a good deal for the money (very high quality, well lightened, clocklike precision, but I would have preferred a closer stepped 14-34T and coasting down hills). The FSA crank is a beautiful piece at $89 including BB, vice the retail mark of $249. The strength and quality seems very evident. I did order a 24T granny gear ($15) in case the standard 30T inside ring wasn't low enough [;o) I will have to experiment with actually being able to shift it...
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Old 02-20-13, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by dabac
IT's possible to convert a front tripple to a quad, I thint the part was called "mountain tamer" or something like that. Might be worth looking into.
dabac; This was posted on a few days back in this forum.

Look Here: https://www.abundantadventures.com/quads.html

The parts are drying up fast (most show sold out status) but looks like one can still buy enough items from them to assemble an 18T granny 4th gear...for something like a 50-40-30-18T quad for not much cash.
The crank has to have a 74mm BCD for the inside 3rd ring mounting or the adapter won't fit. How to shift it is not clear on the website; I've ask and will post any answers.
I'll likely then buy a set to keep for some future venture...who knows when a 18T chainring and a 36T cog might come in handy or at least amusing. Total cost of the adapter and 18T ring from them is $33. Haven't heard back yet if different/longer bolts are required (likely).

Hope that helps close on the thought
/K

PS; If need a granny...seems Raceface 22T or 24T granny rings for 74BCD third position are on sale. Found them on Amazon for $14.95. Seems like a bargain.

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Old 02-20-13, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by john0
Problematic mechanically I mean -- not in terms of gear spacing preferences.
SRAM's XX1 notwithstanding, I think the will to design RDs capable of handling sprockets larger than 34T is largely gone, since you can go pretty low in front.

I'm not sure why Shimano discontinued the 11-xx MegaRange freewheels. Unless you can find one NOS, you'll need to decide where you want to compromise on your gear range to maintain a 1x7 setup -- top or bottom?
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Old 02-20-13, 10:32 AM
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Unfortunately I don't see that you included your chainwheel size, but why can't you simply reduce the number of teeth in front? A 44/11 still gives you a 108 inch gear, which is enough to pedal well into 30mph+.
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