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Old 02-17-23, 03:44 PM
  #51  
msu2001la
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
I think the salient issue is that numbers provided by tire pressure calculators should only be considered approximate starting points. There is no universal agreement about the "correct" tire pressure for a given set of conditions, and the range of results from different calculators illustrates that.
Yes, tire pressure calculators are a "starting point", but pointing to Perelli's or Silca's calculators as evidence that Zipp wheels can't be used while ignoring the numbers from Zipp seems like trolling silly.
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Old 02-17-23, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
Yes, tire pressure calculators are a "starting point", but pointing to Perelli's or Silca's calculators as evidence that Zipp wheels can't be used while ignoring the numbers from Zipp seems like trolling silly.
I never said that Zipp wheels couldn't be used, just not at the pressures I would want to use them. Yes, hookless can allow a lower pressure for cushy comfy rides, and for sure there doesn't seem any danger running them at the lower PSIs that Zipp recommends.
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Old 02-17-23, 04:24 PM
  #53  
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I used Pirelli tubeless on my 303s wheels all last season, but I used 30mm tires at 51/54. This year I'm using 28mm in front and the 30mm that was on the front, at the rear. I'll use 54psi in both tires. I don't see any point in increasing the pressure by more than 5 psi.

Even a 205 lb rider could add 5 psi with 28mm tires and be under 73 psi.
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Old 02-20-23, 02:22 PM
  #54  
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My Roadmachine came from the factory with Zipp 303S. After a year the rear bearings were gone & it needed a slight truing. I opted to use TPU tubes & Pirelli TLR 28's & am satisfied with the performance & ride!
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Old 02-21-23, 02:21 AM
  #55  
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Funny how companies that happen to sell hookless wheels also happen to have pressure calculators that recommend running road bikes at semi flaccid pressures ;-)
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Old 02-21-23, 02:27 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I never said that Zipp wheels couldn't be used, just not at the pressures I would want to use them. Yes, hookless can allow a lower pressure for cushy comfy rides, and for sure there doesn't seem any danger running them at the lower PSIs that Zipp recommends.
You can run the same low pressure if you have a hook and/or fit a wide tyre. However you MUST run low pressure if you dont.
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Old 02-21-23, 08:54 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Funny how companies that happen to sell hookless wheels also happen to have pressure calculators that recommend running road bikes at semi flaccid pressures ;-)
Funny how all of these TIRE manufacturers that do not sell wheels are also on board with ETRTO's standards of lower tire pressures.
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Old 02-21-23, 09:07 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
Funny how all of these TIRE manufacturers that do not sell wheels are also on board with ETRTO's standards of lower tire pressures.
Funny? naahh, their engineers and lawyers warned the marketing departments not to kill their customers.- Tyres blowing off of the rim and such! ;-)
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Old 02-21-23, 09:57 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Funny? naahh, their engineers and lawyers warned the marketing departments not to kill their customers.- Tyres blowing off of the rim and such! ;-)
I see. So what your saying is that these manufactures (Michelin, Continental, Pirelli, Goodyear, Maxis, Specialized, ....etc....etc....) are lying to their customers and opening themselves up for company killing lawsuits just so that they can market a tire for hookless rims. Now it all makes sense.
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Old 02-21-23, 10:41 AM
  #60  
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Of course not. Quite the opposite: They are imposing all sorts of limitations on what tyres can be used and at what pressure, for fear of the tyre blowing off of the rim, killing or injuring the rider and exposing the company to all sorts of lawsuits. Makes a lot sense. Of course they will claim its "better" in any number of ways the marketing departments can dream up, to sell it. But at the end of the day its just limitations, rather than advantages, the customer must abide to or be on his own.
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Old 02-21-23, 02:09 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
I see. So what your saying is that these manufactures (Michelin, Continental, Pirelli, Goodyear, Maxis, Specialized, ....etc....etc....) are lying to their customers and opening themselves up for company killing lawsuits just so that they can market a tire for hookless rims. Now it all makes sense.
don't forget Mavic. Note, this is a bit different -- these are Max recommendations -- no input here regarding rider/bike weights. "TC" = hooked; "TSS" = hookless fwiw

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Old 02-21-23, 04:14 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
I see. So what your saying is that these manufactures (Michelin, Continental, Pirelli, Goodyear, Maxis, Specialized, ....etc....etc....) are lying to their customers and opening themselves up for company killing lawsuits just so that they can market a tire for hookless rims. Now it all makes sense.
Quite the opposite. They're not opening themselves up to lawsuits, they're trying to protect themselves from lawsuits by minimizing the chance of hookless blowoffs.
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Old 02-22-23, 07:23 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Quite the opposite. They're not opening themselves up to lawsuits, they're trying to protect themselves from lawsuits by minimizing the chance of hookless blowoffs.
Maybe..... But I am not sure I see that as a bad thing. From all of the independent tests I have seen and read modern wider tires just work better at lower pressures so there is no need to run higher pressures. This is not aimed at you but saying that a max of 73 PSI is a bad thing is just silly. There is just no reason to run tires any higher than that unless your a really heavy rider in which case just go to a wider tire. No biggie.
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Old 02-22-23, 07:42 AM
  #64  
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I wonder how others determine the appropriate tire pressure for their conditions if the don't use Silca or other online calculators?

I won't use hookless on 25 mm tires because 85F/89R is the pressure needed for my conditions and that exceeds the rim makers spec

On 303 Firecrests with 25mm internal hookless rims, I run 32mm GP5000 tubeless at 55F/60R generally or 50F/55R on chippy roads.

Testing Crr is not so easy, it can be done. Do you just pump them up til they are hard as a rock or what criteria is used?
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Old 02-22-23, 08:26 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I wonder how others determine the appropriate tire pressure for their conditions if the don't use Silca or other online calculators?

I won't use hookless on 25 mm tires because 85F/89R is the pressure needed for my conditions and that exceeds the rim makers spec

On 303 Firecrests with 25mm internal hookless rims, I run 32mm GP5000 tubeless at 55F/60R generally or 50F/55R on chippy roads.

Testing Crr is not so easy, it can be done. Do you just pump them up til they are hard as a rock or what criteria is used?
I plan to use the wheel manufacturer calculator as my starting point then playing with pressures in small steps from there. I suppose that if you had a power meter and a set course you could more exactly find that perfect pressure. I am a bit on the heavy side coming off winter so I plan to run a 28c front tire and a 30c rear at around 65psi and see how it goes. Zipp at least does not approve any 25mm tire on their 23mm internal width rim.
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Old 02-22-23, 09:24 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
Maybe..... But I am not sure I see that as a bad thing. From all of the independent tests I have seen and read modern wider tires just work better at lower pressures so there is no need to run higher pressures. This is not aimed at you but saying that a max of 73 PSI is a bad thing is just silly. There is just no reason to run tires any higher than that unless your a really heavy rider in which case just go to a wider tire. No biggie.
I don't know which independent tests you're referring to, or what 'work better' means. Pirelli presumably determined their own ideal pressures for the TL tires they sell and determined that higher pressures than what Zipp recommends 'work better'. Mavic likewise presumably had their own method of determining the Max pressures they'd recommend -- which if you notice doesn't even allow 73psi (a MAX of 64psi is what they indicate for a 28mm tire on a 23mm hookless rim).

Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I wonder how others determine the appropriate tire pressure for their conditions if the don't use Silca or other online calculators?
Silca determined their values from a lot of on road testing. They don't sell tires or rims, and don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, so would tend to trust their guidance as a best starting point. That said, worth reading their disclaimer at the bottom of the calculator webpage:

"NOTE/WARNING: This calculator is estimating the fastest
possible pressure based on real world data taken with professional athletes
riding professionally specified and maintained equipment. This calculator
makes no claims to the compatibility of the rims/tires you have chosen, nor
does it read the internet deeply enough to know the limitations of your setup
as specified by ANY of the manufacturers of the various components in your
setup. If this calculator recommends pressures that violate ANY of the
limitations of your manufacturer's specifications, you must either change
components or lower your pressures to match those of the manufacturer.
Note: Tubeless setups, particularly those not adhering to ETRTO, OR hookless setups
are VERY sensitive to pressure and surpassing manufacturers recommended
pressures can lead to unneccessary risks including injury, equipment damage,
and you guessed it: death. "
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Old 02-22-23, 10:07 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
Maybe..... But I am not sure I see that as a bad thing. From all of the independent tests I have seen and read modern wider tires just work better at lower pressures so there is no need to run higher pressures. This is not aimed at you but saying that a max of 73 PSI is a bad thing is just silly. There is just no reason to run tires any higher than that unless your a really heavy rider in which case just go to a wider tire. No biggie.
No, it's not a bad thing that they are trying to prevent accidents from the tires blowing off. But, for some people, hookless is unattractive because it places a limit on tire pressure that is lower than with hooked rims. For cyclists of even moderate weight, it means they can no longer run traditional tire widths that some people prefer. So, although hookless rims have manufacturing advantages and might cost less, it's not clear that they offer any performance advantages to riders.

Last edited by tomato coupe; 02-22-23 at 06:05 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 02-22-23, 10:18 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
For cyclists of even moderate weight, it means they can no longer runner traditional tire widths that some people prefer. So, although hookless rims have manufacturing advantages and might cost less, it's not clear that they offer any performance advantages to riders.
I feel like it has been shown that our old thinking of thin high pressure tires were wrong and that wider softer tires offer the same if not better rolling resistance and much more comfort. Change is hard for a lot of us. Heck, look how long it took for riders to accept electronic shifting as better than cable and then wireless shifting to be better than wired. Disc brakes over rim brakes.....etc..... Change is hard. To be honest what persuaded me to go hookless was the lifetime damage warranty on the wheels. Zipp must be pretty sure of the product to offer that. I am no longer a racer so I don't really care about any aero gain of hookless over hooked. I am looking forward to running road tubeless for the ride quality and puncture resistance. If that warranty was available for their hooked rim wheels then that would have been fine too.
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Old 02-22-23, 10:27 AM
  #69  
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Just a note to be careful approaching the 73 psi limit on hookless rims. Be sure your pressure gauge is accurate and realize that if you air your tires up in a 70F house and take them onto 120F pavement, it is possible to get into a blow off risk territory, 50F increase is about 10% increase in tire pressure. You'd be suprised how hot tires can get, bring an IR heat gun with you. 120F is at the low end in mid summer where I live
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Old 02-22-23, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Just a note to be careful approaching the 73 psi limit on hookless rims. Be sure your pressure gauge is accurate and realize that if you air your tires up in a 70F house and take them onto 120F pavement, it is possible to get into a blow off risk territory, 50F increase is about 10% increase in tire pressure. You'd be suprised how hot tires can get, bring an IR heat gun with you. 120F is at the low end in mid summer where I live

Us Michiganders don't have those worries. Its the spring black ice we worry about. Good call on double checking the accuracy of pump gauges.
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Old 02-22-23, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by garysol1
If that warranty was available for their hooked rim wheels then that would have been fine too.
The warranty does sound nice and attractive. And if the wheels work for your usage, that's great. That said, and I could be mistaken, in the case of Zipp -- I don't think they sell a hooked road wheelset? That's part of the issue I think -- they're more vested in trying to convince that hookless is good for anyone because they can't sell you an alternative.

The value prop is another thing. Zipp name and warranty is worth something to people. But at the same time you could compare to eg. the linked below, customized (note that they can do these with or without hooks) with DT240 hubs etc -- lower overall weight and cost, and while I wouldn't go that high, the rims are rated as capable of holding 110psi (vs the hookless option max indicated of 75psi).
LB AR46 WHEELSET
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Old 02-22-23, 11:56 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by garysol1
I feel like it has been shown that our old thinking of thin high pressure tires were wrong and that wider softer tires offer the same if not better rolling resistance and much more comfort. Change is hard for a lot of us.
A blanket statement that wider, lower pressure tires have less rolling resistance is just as wrong as stating narrow, high pressure tires have lower rolling resistance, as it depends heavily on the road surface conditions. In some cases, the tire width and pressure that offers the lowest rolling resistance may not be attainable with hookless rims due to the 73 psi limit.

Comfort is, of course, subjective. Low pressures that some cyclists find comfortable are too squishy for other cyclists.
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Old 02-22-23, 12:35 PM
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I run 25mm on my fast bike and 28 or 32mm on the others. Many factors come into play and at speed, aerodynamics becomes as important or more important than Crr
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Old 02-22-23, 12:39 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
No, it's not a bad thing that they are trying to prevent accidents from the tires blowing off. But, for some people, hookless is unattractive because it places a limit on tire pressure that is lower than with hooked rims. For cyclists of even moderate weight, it means they can no longer runner traditional tire widths that some people prefer. So, although hookless rims have manufacturing advantages and might cost less, it's not clear that they offer any performance advantages to riders.
I don't know much about this stuff, but I recently purchased some fancy new wheels (for a gravel bike) and chose hooked rims, even though they are getting scarce. Even though I run wider tires at lower (<40psi) pressures, the hooks are still attractive to me. On a couple occasions, always in the middle of a race, I have hit large potholes and taken a huge hit, and then moments later found my rear tire getting soft. I've always presumed that the tire burped out a bunch of air, and I've also presumed that this could be even worse with a hookless rim. But I'm not really sure about that(?)
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Old 02-22-23, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
That said, and I could be mistaken, in the case of Zipp -- I don't think they sell a hooked road wheelset? That's part of the issue I think -- they're more vested in trying to convince that hookless is good for anyone because they can't sell you an alternative.
The logic that they have to push hookless because they don't have an alternative makes no sense. Zipp has sold hooked/tubeless rims for years.

They currently sell rim-brake versions of the 303, 404 and 808 and they are all hooked/tubeless.

As aftermarket for wheelbuilders, Zipp still sells a number of disc-brake hooked rims for custom builds. Pro Wheel Builder currently has 6-7 different Zipp rims available and designed for disc brakes, both tubed and tubeless, all with hooks.https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/rims...omposites.html
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