Anyone recognize this old bike?
12-31-20, 02:32 PM
#1
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Anyone recognize this old bike?
Curious little bike? No other pictures available...
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
12-31-20, 03:03 PM
#2
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-----
the forum has had prior discussions on the Mondial marque, do not know the actual manufacturer, suspect a contract build
have a friend with one which is also from the 1960's era
her example as well constructed with the Agrati "BRIANZA" pattern lug set, nr. 000.8030/U
livery of her cycle is yellow w/blue trim
a nice touch here is the maker's decision to opt for a seat lug of the Malaguti style. as mentioned in other posts, Agrati seat lugs were offered in a choice of three formats. one could select their pattern of choice in a bare lug without binder ears, a form with binder ears, or a form with Malaguti style plugs without binder ears as we have here.
the welded stem/bar/brake lever set here is likely from somone such as Varese...or perchance Schierano
zinc plated headset is an Agrati item
pedals appear they may be Agrati pattern nr. 000.0611
zinc finished brake calipers my be from someone such as Balilla or Super Rapid
there looks to be a marking on the head of the crankarms, would be interesting to learn how it reads
mudguards & chainguard may be from Mazzucchelli
if cycle produced for export to the anglophone lands would expect a wheel size of 26 X 1 3/8
suspect original finish may have been a red flambouyant, with a combination of UV and rust achieving the present look
some of the original colour might return in the course of a de-rusting treatment
hope you are able to take it in so we can get further imagery...
-----
the forum has had prior discussions on the Mondial marque, do not know the actual manufacturer, suspect a contract build
have a friend with one which is also from the 1960's era
her example as well constructed with the Agrati "BRIANZA" pattern lug set, nr. 000.8030/U
livery of her cycle is yellow w/blue trim
a nice touch here is the maker's decision to opt for a seat lug of the Malaguti style. as mentioned in other posts, Agrati seat lugs were offered in a choice of three formats. one could select their pattern of choice in a bare lug without binder ears, a form with binder ears, or a form with Malaguti style plugs without binder ears as we have here.
the welded stem/bar/brake lever set here is likely from somone such as Varese...or perchance Schierano
zinc plated headset is an Agrati item
pedals appear they may be Agrati pattern nr. 000.0611
zinc finished brake calipers my be from someone such as Balilla or Super Rapid
there looks to be a marking on the head of the crankarms, would be interesting to learn how it reads
mudguards & chainguard may be from Mazzucchelli
if cycle produced for export to the anglophone lands would expect a wheel size of 26 X 1 3/8
suspect original finish may have been a red flambouyant, with a combination of UV and rust achieving the present look
some of the original colour might return in the course of a de-rusting treatment
hope you are able to take it in so we can get further imagery...
-----
Last edited by juvela; 01-01-21 at 01:00 PM. Reason: addition
12-31-20, 06:01 PM
#3
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juvela provided an excellent analysis of the frame, as always.
The only info I can add is about the Cicli Mondial brand. There were at least three separate Italian marques named 'Mondial', the main one being from Rossano Veneto (near Vicenza) and two in Milan.
The downtube decal on the bike in questions would make it a Rossano Veneto Mondial:
The Rossano Veneto marque was registered to the Bernardi brothers:
As you can see, they used a horse in their logos while the Milano ones looked like this:
The other Mondials may be related to the Milan brand but so far I've seen no connection. Most notable one is the manufacturer of parts like dynamos and lights, which is usually described as owned by the Pietra brothers:
There was also a famous FB Mondial company (FB = Fratelli Boselli) in Milan that manufactured motorbikes, but there is no concrete evidence that they manufactured any bicycles, although there is one discussed here.
The only other trademark registration of a Mondial bicycle brand is this one, registered in the name of Giovanni de Trizio, filed in Rome but apparently for a business in Bari, with "Milano" in the logo:
Yeah, confusing. The post I referenced earlier, has some info in the comments about the Mondial brand being big in the south of Italy. Perhaps Giovanni de Trizio might be behind both the Milano and the southern Italian Mondial brands?
Most of the Rossano Mondials I've seen looked like contract builds. In the 80s seems like most were either Billato or Biemmezeta built frames. The older ones (as well as city style ones) looked like they may have been made by Torpado, so it would not surprise if, on closer inspection, this one turned out to be a Torpado product.
Anyway, it should make a nice townie once restored.
The only info I can add is about the Cicli Mondial brand. There were at least three separate Italian marques named 'Mondial', the main one being from Rossano Veneto (near Vicenza) and two in Milan.
The downtube decal on the bike in questions would make it a Rossano Veneto Mondial:
The Rossano Veneto marque was registered to the Bernardi brothers:
As you can see, they used a horse in their logos while the Milano ones looked like this:
The other Mondials may be related to the Milan brand but so far I've seen no connection. Most notable one is the manufacturer of parts like dynamos and lights, which is usually described as owned by the Pietra brothers:
There was also a famous FB Mondial company (FB = Fratelli Boselli) in Milan that manufactured motorbikes, but there is no concrete evidence that they manufactured any bicycles, although there is one discussed here.
The only other trademark registration of a Mondial bicycle brand is this one, registered in the name of Giovanni de Trizio, filed in Rome but apparently for a business in Bari, with "Milano" in the logo:
Yeah, confusing. The post I referenced earlier, has some info in the comments about the Mondial brand being big in the south of Italy. Perhaps Giovanni de Trizio might be behind both the Milano and the southern Italian Mondial brands?
Most of the Rossano Mondials I've seen looked like contract builds. In the 80s seems like most were either Billato or Biemmezeta built frames. The older ones (as well as city style ones) looked like they may have been made by Torpado, so it would not surprise if, on closer inspection, this one turned out to be a Torpado product.
Anyway, it should make a nice townie once restored.
Last edited by MauriceMoss; 01-01-21 at 04:30 AM.
12-31-20, 06:36 PM
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-----
WOW, just WOW!
was thinking perchance Torresini on this one also, but based solely on the metal...
serial note -
at this time Torresini placed their serials on the side of the seat tube and they began with a triangular symbol have been unable to decipher
do not know if the procedure was followed with contract builds...
if you purchase the machine you could check for this
---
the raptor device on this crest certainly bears a strong resemblance to the one on the mystery frame of Oldairhead
would not be the first time a single post from DCI Moss solved more than one mystery...
-----
WOW, just WOW!
was thinking perchance Torresini on this one also, but based solely on the metal...
serial note -
at this time Torresini placed their serials on the side of the seat tube and they began with a triangular symbol have been unable to decipher
do not know if the procedure was followed with contract builds...
if you purchase the machine you could check for this
---
the raptor device on this crest certainly bears a strong resemblance to the one on the mystery frame of Oldairhead
would not be the first time a single post from DCI Moss solved more than one mystery...
-----
Last edited by juvela; 01-01-21 at 04:34 PM. Reason: addition
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01-01-21, 11:57 AM
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Might have to buy it just for the interest!
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
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01-01-21, 01:16 PM
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this image of a lugless Cicli Mondial courtesy of @MauriceMoss reminded me that back in the early to mid 1960's there were lugless cycles of Italy origin sold in U.S. discount houses under several names. have had three come through me workshop. one marque recalled is that of Hermes. these cycles retailed for ~60-65USD BITD.
while their frame construction is lugless it was not fillet brazed but more butt welded. kitting was very bare bones with Huret Allvit gears, steel sidepull brakes and economy cottered steel chainsets where the chrome was applied directly to the steel witout the necessay intervening copper and nickel layers. they came with unmarked steel five-piece hubs and steel rims. steel Sheffield pedals.
if run across some good images of one of these shall make a thread so that Maurice can tell us who the perpetratore vero was.
-----
this image of a lugless Cicli Mondial courtesy of @MauriceMoss reminded me that back in the early to mid 1960's there were lugless cycles of Italy origin sold in U.S. discount houses under several names. have had three come through me workshop. one marque recalled is that of Hermes. these cycles retailed for ~60-65USD BITD.
while their frame construction is lugless it was not fillet brazed but more butt welded. kitting was very bare bones with Huret Allvit gears, steel sidepull brakes and economy cottered steel chainsets where the chrome was applied directly to the steel witout the necessay intervening copper and nickel layers. they came with unmarked steel five-piece hubs and steel rims. steel Sheffield pedals.
if run across some good images of one of these shall make a thread so that Maurice can tell us who the perpetratore vero was.
-----
01-02-21, 01:08 PM
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Here is another example from Rossano Veneto that happens to be for sale near me. I'll post a link in the "Are you looking for.." thread.
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01-02-21, 01:22 PM
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Thanks very much!
This one certainly appears a Torresini product.
One can make out a serial there on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug.
Way Assauto headset, original gear ensemble appears to have been Gian Robert.
Quite a few replacement fittings: stem, bar, brake levers, pedals, front mech, saddle...
-----
01-02-21, 01:42 PM
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-----suspect original finish may have been a red flambouyant, with a combination of UV and rust achieving the present look
some of the original colour might return in the course of a de-rusting treatment
hope you are able to take it in so we can get further imagery...
-----
some of the original colour might return in the course of a de-rusting treatment
hope you are able to take it in so we can get further imagery...
-----
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
01-02-21, 01:48 PM
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the raptor device on this crest certainly bears a strong resemblance to the one on the mystery frame of Oldairhead
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com.../mystery-bike/
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com...e-is-finished/
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01-02-21, 02:38 PM
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Here is the referenced image. The depth of knowledge displayed here never ceases to amaze me as well as Juvela's long memory!
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com.../mystery-bike/
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com...e-is-finished/
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com.../mystery-bike/
https://utahrandonneur.wordpress.com...e-is-finished/
...me "memory" may be long but certainly not so accurate in this case...
...resemblance not that close...
so many Italian bicycle crests feature eagle devices
suspect a good proportion are not especially original, taking instead from stock sources...
all best wishes to "the barns" Don Lon!
-----
thanks very much for the new detail pictures; the one of the emblem under the head of the stem expander bolt was one i was really waiting for
cycle appears it could not be more 100% original
love all the little details of the M monogramed bits
was incorrect on the headset - obviously an item from the merry-go-round folk
appears seat binder collar may be from them as well as it looks like it may be forged rather than stamped; doth it proclaim "MONDIAL" on the front side?
wear across centre of headplate likely due to rubbing from a basket erstwhile carried
would expect the false acorns on the wedgebolts to have the blue inserts with the M monogram as well
you shall enjoy no end of delight in disassembling this and cleaning the bits
-----
07-08-21, 02:14 PM
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Thanks very much!
This one certainly appears a Torresini product.
One can make out a serial there on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug.
Way Assauto headset, original gear ensemble appears to have been Gian Robert.
Quite a few replacement fittings: stem, bar, brake levers, pedals, front mech, saddle...
-----
Thanks very much!
This one certainly appears a Torresini product.
One can make out a serial there on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug.
Way Assauto headset, original gear ensemble appears to have been Gian Robert.
Quite a few replacement fittings: stem, bar, brake levers, pedals, front mech, saddle...
-----
07-08-21, 03:59 PM
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Looking forward to seeing more of that bike and the restoration process.
07-08-21, 04:42 PM
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Missed this thread earlier, but from my investigations into the origins of my 1952 Paff, it seems that the same company that made the Rossano Veneto Mondial made the Paff.
There are many similarities in the construction of the Paff to the Mondial as well, so suspect they were different labels for the same framesets.
There are many similarities in the construction of the Paff to the Mondial as well, so suspect they were different labels for the same framesets.
07-08-21, 05:55 PM
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How did you determine the year of your Paff? My bike is the orange Mondial and I really want to know more about it. Thanks
07-08-21, 06:54 PM
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jayroorbach Well, the fact I got it from the daughter of the original owner, and it was well known in their family that he bought it new in 1953 (because he had just been discharged from the army and used his pension to buy the bike, to then court the woman that would become his wife) helped. But from the perspective of evidence on the bike, the FB hubs (that are pantographed PAFF) had 52 on the cones, indicating the hubs were 1952 vintage. That put the bike between 1952 and 53.
BTW: you already have the attention of juvela who has an encyclopedic knowledge of many details that can help identify a bike. Looking closely at your pictures the bike appears to me to be from the 60s or 70s, but as he already said many components (that could offer date codes) have already been replaced.
BTW: you already have the attention of juvela who has an encyclopedic knowledge of many details that can help identify a bike. Looking closely at your pictures the bike appears to me to be from the 60s or 70s, but as he already said many components (that could offer date codes) have already been replaced.
Last edited by markk900; 07-08-21 at 06:59 PM.
07-11-21, 04:31 PM
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Thanks very much!
This one certainly appears a Torresini product.
One can make out a serial there on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug.
Way Assauto headset, original gear ensemble appears to have been Gian Robert.
Quite a few replacement fittings: stem, bar, brake levers, pedals, front mech, saddle...
-----
Thanks very much!
This one certainly appears a Torresini product.
One can make out a serial there on the side of the seat tube just below the seat lug.
Way Assauto headset, original gear ensemble appears to have been Gian Robert.
Quite a few replacement fittings: stem, bar, brake levers, pedals, front mech, saddle...
-----
07-11-21, 06:20 PM
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Juvela - I am really interested to find out more about my bike and you seem to know how to start that. I can tell some components have been replaced and want to try to restore this to original (or close) specs. Any way you can assist me with finding year, specs, etc would be awesome. I can post more pix too. Thanks
thank you for writing
if you wish to discuss the orange example it would be best to commence a separate new textile on it
this thread begun to discuss the machine pictured in first post
before beginning thread it might be best to disassemble machine and make lots of pictures of the frame details and the fittings as well, forgetting not the "as found" images
in this way readers will be better able to assist you
---
fittings changes -
original brakeset Balilla Corsa 61, calipers and hangers original to cycle, levers replaced with Weinmann
original pedals would have been Sheffield, either model 655 or 665
original front mech would have been Gian Robert
original stem/bar set: likely 3TTT model Tourist
original saddle pillar: plain steel
drive chain and gear block: either Regina or Everest/CAIMI would be plausible
---
advisory -
this is a base model sort of machine roughly parallel to a Peugeot UO8 or Raleigh Gran Prix of the early 1970's and as such does not merit a great investment of treasure/time/heart
-----
Last edited by juvela; 07-11-21 at 06:32 PM. Reason: addition
07-12-21, 03:18 PM
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"This is a base model sort of machine roughly parallel to a Peugeot UO8 or Raleigh Gran Prix of the early 1970's and as such does not merit a great investment of treasure/time/heart"
And for that very reason hopefully someone will take the time to clean it up and at least preserve it. sometimes it is the common things, the ones everyone throws away, that in time become valuable, at least to someone.
And for that very reason hopefully someone will take the time to clean it up and at least preserve it. sometimes it is the common things, the ones everyone throws away, that in time become valuable, at least to someone.
