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SPOILER - Tour De France history avoided for politics in Paris?

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SPOILER - Tour De France history avoided for politics in Paris?

Old 07-19-21, 09:53 AM
  #26  
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Yeah but no. After watching last night I think Cav somehow lost his lead out and never could get back on Morkov's wheel. Perhaps with him being so use to the finish line normally being 300 meters closer to that last right hand turn it messed up his perception. While from the overhead it looked like he had room, it was on the left and typically.... I think... he only tries to squeak through to the right of others in tight places.

He definitely was P.O.'d about the result as signified by his pounding the bars.
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Old 07-19-21, 10:09 AM
  #27  
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Trio from Belleville
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Old 07-19-21, 10:34 AM
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Yeah Cav was definitely going for the win. The hesitation was simply because he was boxed in and reluctant to squeeze down the barrier side. His frustration was obvious crossing the line. But he finished safely with the Green jersey. No politics IMO. Great finish by WVA too. He got in the best position and made it count with raw power. Awesome Tour to watch with some amazing riders.
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Old 07-19-21, 10:51 AM
  #29  
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Your head is deceiving you. Did you watch the whole Tour? You know all the real powerful sprinters (and GC contenders) were out of it early because of crashes right? Cav has THE best leadout train in the Peloton pulling his old ass. The STARS aligned for that little prick. Cav's cleaning up in a severely reduced sprint field, hell if you watch his leadout Morkov sometimes has to SLOW down so Cav can come around him.

He stood up...Jesus.

It wasn't politics...ok...it's your head AND your eyes.

Watch the Lantern Rouge recap of this stage it will show overhead in slow motion how Cav lost to WvA. Here's a hint; he lost because of positioning (and if Wout didn't beat him Philipsen would have).

He stood up....oh boy

The only Stage better than this one, with WvA winning and preventing the Manx child from taking one of many records from a known doper (Merckx), was Sepp's win in Andorra.
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Old 07-19-21, 10:55 AM
  #30  
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To echo what others have said...Cav didn't "hesitate". Cav was trapped with nowhere to go. WVA flat-out out-raced Cav, not just in timing of his sprint, but also in shutting the door on his left side against the barriers.

This finish possibly says a lot about how important the DQS train - Morkov, in particular - was to Cav's wins this year. In Paris, they looked impatient and overwhelmed. By the time they needed to really deliver, they were already burned up, and Cav had to battle by himself.
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Old 07-19-21, 11:13 AM
  #31  
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Looked like there might have been room had he gone to the left right away, but not sure he had a long enough sprint to go that early and then the space got closed down.
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Old 07-19-21, 11:33 AM
  #32  
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]Pump your breaks, junior. Cav is not Sagan.[/QUOTE
I see what you did there Indyfabz.

Last edited by Outrider1; 07-19-21 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 07-19-21, 12:15 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by ChamoisDavisJr View Post
Your head is deceiving you. Did you watch the whole Tour? You know all the real powerful sprinters (and GC contenders) were out of it early because of crashes right? Cav has THE best leadout train in the Peloton pulling his old ass. The STARS aligned for that little prick. Cav's cleaning up in a severely reduced sprint field, hell if you watch his leadout Morkov sometimes has to SLOW down so Cav can come around him.

He stood up...Jesus.

It wasn't politics...ok...it's your head AND your eyes.

Watch the Lantern Rouge recap of this stage it will show overhead in slow motion how Cav lost to WvA. Here's a hint; he lost because of positioning (and if Wout didn't beat him Philipsen would have).

He stood up....oh boy

The only Stage better than this one, with WvA winning and preventing the Manx child from taking one of many records from a known doper (Merckx), was Sepp's win in Andorra.
Itís not his fault other younger contenders fell by the wayside and he canít help getting older. Heís also not pretending that he won the Green jersey by himself. In every single interview he has given full credit to his lead out train. He simply got out of position this time as his lead out didnít go to plan. But he still fully deserved the Green.

I fully agree no politics here. It was a straight fight but WVA nailed it on the day.
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Old 07-19-21, 01:24 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
This finish possibly says a lot about how important the DQS train - Morkov, in particular - was to Cav's wins this year. In Paris, they looked impatient and overwhelmed. By the time they needed to really deliver, they were already burned up, and Cav had to battle by himself.
Exactly. Put any sprinter behind that DQS train and they'd come out on top. Look at Cav's three wins...they had text book lead outs for him and all he had to do was "sprint" the last 275 meters or so...I mean in one sprint Morkov looked like he could have just continue with his "leadout" and taken the win.

Shows what a quality team they are for sure. You had the World Champ working for Cav, it was impressive.
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Old 07-19-21, 01:36 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by ChamoisDavisJr View Post
Exactly. Put any sprinter behind that DQS train and they'd come out on top. Look at Cav's three wins...they had text book lead outs for him and all he had to do was "sprint" the last 275 meters or so...I mean in one sprint Morkov looked like he could have just continue with his "leadout" and taken the win.

Shows what a quality team they are for sure. You had the World Champ working for Cav, it was impressive.
I'm not sure if I agree with the "any sprinter" part. Cav definitely showed that he was the fastest finisher of the sprinters left in the game, and his sense of timing for when he needs to launch is impeccable. That said, the DQS train was definitely critical to his success, and he admitted as much after his earlier wins. The quality of riders in that train is undeniable. Left on his own on the Champs, however, he got stuck. WVA might not have beaten Cav, if Cav had an opening to fly through, but that's part of the game, and WVA played it perfectly. Huge props to WVA for winning 3 very different types of stages - an unusual feat, to be sure. Huge props also to Cav, who rode his ass off to earn the green jersey. We got to see some really good racing this year.
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Old 07-20-21, 12:29 AM
  #36  
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This.
Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
I was watching the sprint unfold and saw a few problems with Cav's positioning, his lead out man, and his response time. I also observed two hesitations as if he was avoiding the rear wheel of Wout.
I watched the finish several times, from various camera angles, and listened to the commentary from Chris Horner, Lanterne Rouge, Bob Roll and others. Cavendish didn't take a dive or give away the win.

From the distorted perspective of a camera with telephoto lens facing the front of the finish, it appeared that Cav stopped pedaling for a split second. That might give the illusion that he "let" van Aert win. But it's an illusion.

When viewed from overhead, rather than following his leadout man, Cav gambled on a different line and lost. He admitted this afterward and didn't blame anyone but himself.

By following van Aert and his leadout man Philipsen, Cav got boxed in very briefly. It didn't appear to be deliberate. Philipsen was just doing his job to bring his man into the fnish.

There was a split second when Philipsen, van Aert, or both veered slightly left for a split second into Cav's line. It did not appear to be deliberate, Cav didn't complain and nobody called an infraction. It was very subtle and practically inconsequential compared with the usual shoulder bumping finish guys like Cavendish, Sagan, Ewan and other aggressive sprinters are accustomed to.

But that's the moment when Cav eased up off the pedals for just a moment.

It's possible a younger, more reckless Cavendish would have gone ahead and squirted through that slightly narrowed gap between van Aert and the fence. But after several crashes and serious injuries, Cav, perhaps subconsciously, blinked, flinched, and let it go. Anyone who's been injured in a crash can relate.

Another factor was the revised finish of the final crit type stage. For rider safety the 2021 final stage sprint was extended a couple hundred yards. Cavendish's muscle memory may have been timed for the shorter sprint. His strength is the short, explosive final sprint that depends on drafting until the last possible moment, then slipping around. That leadout train setup never happened since he gambled on using van Aert and Philipsen instead of his own leadout man.

But van Aert is a stronger extended sprinter, started pushing ahead sooner and never faded. He had the better engine for this particular finish.

TBH, it wouldn't matter to me whether Cavendish beat or equaled the Merckx stage win record. What's really impressive is how well Cav did despite the odds, after years of declining health and performance, and not even being considered for the 2021 TdF until the last moment after Bennett couldn't race. Cav his team put on a clinic in leadout train perfection several times. He got the green jersey. Heck of an accomplishment even if he retires now or can't reach this level of performance again. He was a big part of a Tour that turned out to be much more exciting than I'd expected before the race start.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:59 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Ray9 View Post
Eddy Merckx is a legend of the sport of cycling and Cavendish did not even have a contract this year; he got in on a fluke because another rider got injured. He tied Merckx with 34 wins but was the politics of the sport more important than a historical win?
What politics would that be? Only the British journalists are as disrespectful to claim Cavendish has equalled Merckx. Cavendish is a sprinter, winning stages is his job. If in the process of trying to win stages he would pick up let's say 5 GC TdF wins we would be talking about equalling Merckx, and in that case rightly so. If Cavendish would have won, it would be seen as a testament of how good he is in his specialism, nothing less but certainly nothing more.
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Old 07-20-21, 05:48 AM
  #38  
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The strange politics of other teams thinking they should get the win and make their sponsors happy instead of Cavendish's sponsors.
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Old 07-20-21, 08:24 AM
  #39  
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At the risk of rattling more curmudgeon gages, I still believe there was something fishy about that finish.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:14 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Ray9 View Post
At the risk of rattling more curmudgeon gages, I still believe there was something fishy about that finish.
You can believe whatever you like, it doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Pull your tinfoil on a little tighter.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:28 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
You can believe whatever you like, it doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Pull your tinfoil on a little tighter.
Knowing what you are about and questioning that status quo will get you cancelled nowadays by grumpy people.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:58 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Ray9 View Post
At the risk of rattling more curmudgeon gages, I still believe there was something fishy about that finish.
That's not a fishy finish (although a newcomer to watching bike racing can be forgiven for being unable to understand how sprint finishes work). Here's what a fishy finish looks like:

From the 2012 Olympic Road Race: at 0:15 in the video, Vinokourov negotiates a deal with Uran; at 1:00, Uran takes a long look at the chasers and swings theatrically wide. Oscar-worthy.


Last edited by Trakhak; 07-20-21 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 07-20-21, 10:39 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Ray9 View Post
At the risk of rattling more curmudgeon gages, I still believe there was something fishy about that finish.

Know how I know you don't know **** about racing?


How many sprints have you contested?


There's something "fishy" about this thread. And here I am....on this Troll's line like a good sucker.
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Old 07-20-21, 02:01 PM
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Great analysis by Chris Horner of the stage 21 sprint (if you're new to watching bike racing, this high-level analysis will seem like quantum mechanics, but stick with it):

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Old 07-20-21, 04:13 PM
  #45  
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I just watched the Chris Horner video.

Do I believe Ray9 and his apparent conspiracy laden life, or 13:30 minutes of Chris Hornerís detailed analysis?

Ray9 did say he would drop me like a bad habit, but Chris Hornerís credentials seem to add a bit more credence to his position.

Ray9 has done a lot of bike races and he can read body language, but Chris Horner has actually ridden multiple times in the Tour de France and the Champs Elysees; and won the Vuelta.

It is so tough to know which one to believe.

John
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Old 07-20-21, 04:30 PM
  #46  
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^So true^.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Ray9 has done a lot of bike races and he can read body language...
I've done a lot of bike races and can read body language. Sprinting in a big pack finish was my favorite game. One time, I beat Justin Williams in a crit sprint. I also agree that Ray9 has no idea what he's talking about.
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Old 07-20-21, 04:46 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by ChamoisDavisJr View Post
There's something "fishy" about this thread. And here I am....on this Troll's line like a good sucker.
Don't feel badly, you were hooked by a Pro.
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Old 07-20-21, 05:35 PM
  #49  
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Initially I did believe that Cavendish was essentially "boxed" in, and lost the sprint. This thread however, has me questioning this.

I can read lips (my next door neighbor is deaf) and I could plainly see Cavendish mouth "!SEVIL NATAS" as he banged the handlebars in "frustration".

Thinking there might be something to this coded outburst, I watched the stage backwards from the finish line. It then became painfully obvious that Cavendish boxed HIMSELF in. He had plenty of room at the finish, but as I watched the coverage in reverse, Cavendish just got closer and closer to the other riders for no apparent reason.
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Old 07-20-21, 06:35 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
What politics would that be? Only the British journalists are as disrespectful to claim Cavendish has equalled Merckx. Cavendish is a sprinter, winning stages is his job. If in the process of trying to win stages he would pick up let's say 5 GC TdF wins we would be talking about equalling Merckx, and in that case rightly so. If Cavendish would have won, it would be seen as a testament of how good he is in his specialism, nothing less but certainly nothing more.
None of the British journalists are saying anything other than Cav equalling the 34 TDF stage win record and being the best sprinter of all time. One is a fact and the other hard to dispute. Nobody is dumb enough to compare Cav with Merckx as a GC rider. There is no disrespect, Merckx is widely considered by the British journalists to be the best rider of all time. I havenít read anything to the contrary anyway.
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