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$1500 Tax Credit for Bike Purchases

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$1500 Tax Credit for Bike Purchases

Old 02-10-21, 04:52 PM
  #51  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
That's because you haven't posted much of substance to refute - don't blame me.

But yeah - cite the studies.
This should get you started. Nice summary of a study:
https://momentummag.com/biking-work-barrier-americans/

But I have a feeling that you won't budge. You seem to be changing the goalposts with each post, and that makes it hard to have a serious discussion.
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Old 02-10-21, 05:25 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster
The ‘me too’ mentality is always so refreshing.
How about people that walk to work?
You thinking that they also deserve a tax credit?
Or how about people that carpool to work? Should all of the passengers get a tax credit?
Mass-transit tax credits?
Ummm, hello? What about me? I'm unemployed so I'm not out there eye-gouging mother nature with my Toyota Corolla everyday.

Where's MY money?
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Old 02-10-21, 05:26 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
My issue with this proposed bill isnt that ebikes are included, its that ebikes are all thats included. Heck, all the trendy forms of transportation could be included- scooter, bike, ebike, that skateboard ball thing, etc. They are all recreational and all potentially modes of transportation that reduce emissions compared to driving gas vehicles.
...
Also, PFB sucks if they arent pushing for regular bikes to be included. I mean, its in their name- bikes. Support bikes as a mode of transportation and not just a certain section of bikes.
It's not including regular bikes because, if they state that their aim is to replace vehicle trips, it needs to be focus on that. They can point to studies that say that a large percentage (47%?) of ebike trips directly replaced vehicular trips (see previous quote/link) - it's not likely that they can demonstrate anything close to that for bikes in general.
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Old 02-10-21, 05:55 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This should get you started. Nice summary of a study:
https://momentummag.com/biking-work-barrier-americans/

But I have a feeling that you won't budge. You seem to be changing the goalposts with each post, and that makes it hard to have a serious discussion.
I clicked the link. Bro... 2015, bro. Did a CTRL+F search for ebike - nada. bingo. nuthin'.

And moving goalposts? I said that the bill shouldn't preclude infrastructure investment on page 1. I discussed chicken/egg problem w/r/t opposition to cycling infrastructure expansion (with the perception of underutilization) on page 1. I stated that ebikes would make it easier to utilize existing infrastructure on page 1. I have expanded on these points since - I have not moved goalposts. Again, you were saying that *I* haven't been paying attention?

Here's another expansion on a point - in 2019, the US spent/dispersed ~$100 billion on infrastructure - my back-of-the-napkin math on ebike tax credits would account for 0.3% of that.

You disappointed Bongo.
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Old 02-10-21, 06:32 PM
  #55  
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I would actually be interested.

I can't count all the times that I've had a 12-20 mile commute and despite my best intentions, I never rode to work.

An electric bike would dramatically reduce the effort. From getting dressed for a ride to actual effort to being sweaty at work. Maybe lowering the effort to do it would get me going.

Yes it's kinda weak sauce but it's also way better for the body and the world than driving. I really can't fault it.

I do think a tax incentive based on alternative commuter days would be less divisive. There's tons of people who manage big bike commutes on a regular bike and have been doing it for years. They need some kickback too.
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Old 02-10-21, 07:05 PM
  #56  
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E-bike frames and batteries made in...

Originally Posted by koyote
what a ridiculous proposal. Ridiculous on so many levels. I'm guessing that both of the bill's sponsors have major bike manufacturers in their districts.
...usa?
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Old 02-10-21, 07:13 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You keep talking about how it's a bad idea and how you've got ten better ideas, but you have yet to offer an alternative. I really don't have any further interest in what you've got to say. *shrug*
Actually several people stated the obvious and proven far more effective alternatives for encouraging cycling in lieu of driving.

If you are actually interested in accomplishing that rather than just making a hollow argument, read back up the thread to see them.
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Old 02-10-21, 07:17 PM
  #58  
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46% percent of e-bike commute trips replaced automobile commute trips


Classic example of "how to lie with statistics"

Sure, commute trips replace car trips. But even if 100% of commute trips replaced car trips, that would still be small minority of the way bicycle-like objects are used. Or not used, but sit in the garage forgotten.
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Old 02-10-21, 07:20 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
My issue with this proposed bill isnt that ebikes are included, its that ebikes are all thats included. Heck, all the trendy forms of transportation could be included- scooter, bike, ebike, that skateboard ball thing, etc. They are all recreational and all potentially modes of transportation that reduce emissions compared to driving gas vehicles.
Indeed, this is what absolutely proves that its a simple case of "greenwashing" and industry subsidy, not really aimed at greenhouse reduction.

If one wants to actually wants to get commuters out of cars, we already know how - address the road conditions that make commuting and utility cycling uncomfortable for many people in many places. Absent the pandemic public transit would be even more key.

And in an economy and situation where many white collar jobs can be zoom/slack commutes, we especially have to look at the challenges of cycle commuting to blue-collar jobs with late night schedules, less cheerful parts of town, etc.

Last edited by UniChris; 02-10-21 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 02-10-21, 07:58 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
What a ridiculous proposal. Ridiculous on so many levels. I'm guessing that both of the bill's sponsors have major bike manufacturers in their districts.
Originally Posted by PJay120
...usa?
Wow.

Do they teach American Government in high school any more?

A member of the US House of Representatives actually represents a congressional district, which is one part of a single state -- not the entire USA. I can't believe that I have to explain that to anyone who's old enough to post on an internet forum.

Last edited by Koyote; 02-10-21 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 02-10-21, 08:18 PM
  #61  
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While this is an attempt to coax some portion of the population, it sadly missed a segment of the population who ride bicycles to work because that is their only mode of transportation and there is not a chance most of them have an economic means to afford an e-bike with or without a credit. I realize the legislation is aimed at reducing vehicle use and not assisting those who are already at zero emissions, but it is unfortunate.

I do believe that it will help get some people on a bike for recreational purposes. More likely it will merely provide a tax credit to a lot of people who can already afford an ebike. We watch our grandson one day a week. After Christmas I could not believe the number of kids on ebikes. They were everywhere. While our daughter and son-in-law are not in that economic category, many people in her area obviously have no issues being able to afford one or more ebikes for their kids.

As another polar vortex bears down on the country and this summer will see a number of areas in triple digits, the best case scenario will still be seasonal use. The exception will be those who are already year round commuters, and the precious few who get hooked on riding.

The environmental impact will be very similar to low flow toilets vs. the agriculture industry. It will make someone feel better.

John
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Old 02-10-21, 08:36 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Phil_gretz
Wait for all of the battery failures and batteries thrown into landfills. Yay! Help me to understand why this segment requires Gov't assistance to modulate demand.
Nothing to understand, it nothing but more feel good mentality that I am sure some consultant gave congress slush-funds for re-election to push
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Old 02-10-21, 08:43 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes
I think it would be better if it was targeted specifically to e-Cargo bikes rather than pure recreational ones. If it kickstarts a few American manufactures what's wrong with that? .
Great thought, but ....it will just be outsourced to China\Vietnam\India\Indonesia\Taiwan\<insert your favorite offshore factory country here> ...
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Last edited by jaxgtr; 02-10-21 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 02-11-21, 06:37 AM
  #64  
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Yet another absurd subsidy for the relatively wealthy.
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Old 02-11-21, 06:52 AM
  #65  
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A couple observations:

1. Here in NYC, I'd hazard to guess that the largest segment of e-bike rider and purchaser has been the food delivery folks. I wouldn't call them wealthy, but they rely on this tool to make a living. OTOH, these aren't replacing cars for the delivery folks, they've replaced regular bikes because of their speed and lower/zero effort requirement.

2. I agree with the sentiment that it would have been nicer to see the bill include more alternative options of transport other than e-bikes. Not just for green reasons, there has been a visibly large movement to regular bikes for urban commuting. Everyone here is probably aware of the increased activity at the LBS, right? This largely due to desire of people to not want to travel in subways or on buses. While public transport is certainly greener than cars and taxis, regular bikes are greener than those modes as well. Also overlooked is additionally the public health aspect - a regular bike commute might be some exercise for a lot of folks that otherwise didn't previously occur.

3. Mentions of infrastructure are also spot on. Forgetting bike lanes for the moment, there are some destinations/areas where you can't find a place to park your bike when you get there. Office building racks, that used to on a busy day get to 70-80% full, are now a complete mess and overloaded with bikes haphazardly almost stacked upon one another.
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Old 02-11-21, 07:25 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes
Thanks! I actually like M0 because it is the amount of the most ‘liquid’ money sloshing around. But I know some economists prefer the M2 number as better representation. The Federal Reserve shows M0 as +148% increase between Jan 2020 and Dec 2020 and has increased faster than M2. This isn’t counting the massive stimulus package approved in January or the one currently being considered, so even more dollars are being created out of thin air! Anyway, let’s use some free money for bike things.
OT: Most economists pay less attention to M0 because it is too narrow: it does not include demand deposit balances, which is a problem since those accounts are key in the Fed’s money creation process. After all, most of what we call “money“ is really held in the form of electronic entries in the banking system.
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Old 02-11-21, 04:16 PM
  #67  
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Anyone figured out if this cash-grab nonsense has a bill number yet? I'm writing to ask my congresscritter to oppose and support bike-friendly infrastructure instead, but can't find the proposal officially listed
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Old 02-15-21, 06:39 PM
  #68  
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I'm all for encouraging clean energy transport. However:
- (From the link in the OP): "If signed into law, the bill would offer individual consumers a refundable 30% tax credit — up to a $1,500 for new e-bike less than $8,000."
Like lower interest rates on houses fueling price inflation to the benefit of developers, landlords, property taxes, but not consumers, this proposal will just feed price inflation of E-bikes.
- Incentive is not needed; E-bikes are cheaper to operate than cars, for those who can use them. And those who can, are. Critical stumbling blocks besides prices (which are rapidly declining) are: a) Weather; people don't like to bike in rain, and can't in snow on pavement, b) Infrastructure; E-bikes are not powerful enough to be legal on roads, and often too powerful to be legal on bike paths, c) Bike theft; E-bikes are valuable so to be safe must be brought inside. My two-flight walk-up apartment (no elevator) is a challenge with just my townie; added battery and motor weight would make it impossible. And those who most need E-bikes often live in cheap walk-ups.
- If used in place of a car, yeah, there should be the same tax credit for regular bikes.

Instead of offering a windfall to E-bike manufacturers, I would instead investigate what would bring E-bike prices down. Most especially for a 20" wheel folding E-bike that is highly transportable, and via geometry (diverging seat post and stem adjustment), allow fitting anyone between 4'8" and 6'3" (as is currently possible with many folders), thus allowing standardization, thus allowing government to commission a bulk purchase at greatly discounted price, and then you hand them out to people poor enough to actually need it. Focused giving.
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Old 02-15-21, 09:55 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
Instead of offering a windfall to E-bike manufacturers, I would instead investigate what would bring E-bike prices down.
Increasing the amount of E-bikes sold will bring the cost down. Forced standardization won't do anything for prices.
Higher manufacturing volumes and falling battery prices will drive costs down. Higher profits for E-bike houses will drive innovation in manufacturing and attract new competitors into the space. Any upward price pressure caused by the tax credits will likely turn out to be temporary.
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Old 02-16-21, 11:18 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Interesting, but unfortunately would only be for e-bike purchases. Nothing for the even-greener non-electrics?

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...e#.YCP_X2hKjb0
In that bill the congressman says that e-bikes are zero emission. Probably 90%+ e-bike will be charged with power from a coal fired power plant.
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Old 02-16-21, 11:29 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
In that bill the congressman says that e-bikes are zero emission. Probably 90%+ e-bike will be charged with power from a coal fired power plant.
More likely natural gas, but I get your point.
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Old 02-16-21, 01:30 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
In that bill the congressman says that e-bikes are zero emission. Probably 90%+ e-bike will be charged with power from a coal fired power plant.
You could put a solar panel on top your house to charge your e-bike, because your uncle will give you a 22% tax credit for that this year for up to $2200 as well as some states also have a tax credit.

Coal is only ~23% of electrical generation in the US and will probably be <10% by mid-decade at the current rate of decommissioning. If you live in the pacific northwest and charge your EV or E-bike at night almost all of the electricity will be from water falling over dams.
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Old 02-16-21, 02:16 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes
Coal is only ~23% of electrical generation in the US and will probably be <10% by mid-decade at the current rate of decommissioning. If you live in the pacific northwest and charge your EV or E-bike at night almost all of the electricity will be from water falling over dams.
He loves to make up statistics. Best to just ignore them.
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Old 02-16-21, 02:43 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
He loves to make up statistics. Best to just ignore them.
85.36% of people make up statistics.
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Old 02-16-21, 02:55 PM
  #75  
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Cal ISO has a pretty informative dashboard on their website that shows up to the minute data. Here's the current snapshot:

Currently the largest source by far is renewables, and solar makes up the biggest portion of that. Keep in mind that it is the middle of the day in California. The wind tends to pick up overnight but it doesn't make up for solar. I think the share of NG goes up quite a bit at night.
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