What do carbon bikes get more comfort features?
#1
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What do carbon bikes get more comfort features?
I noticed that features that are for comfort, like ISOSPEED of trek, and FUTURE SHOCK of Specialized, only come on the carbon bikes.
Why is it that these are not available on the aluminum versions of trek and specialized?
Is this a limitation of aluminum , or are companies purposefully trying to market\sell their carbon bikes?
Because if you do not care so much about the weight of the bike soo much and or are not racing, the only other reason to get the carbon versions , is for these enhanced features like ISOSPEED and FUTURE SCHOCK, personally i rather prefer to have stronger frame, and have the ISOSPEED\ FUTURE SCHOCK on the aluminum bikes but i don't have that option.
Why is it that these are not available on the aluminum versions of trek and specialized?
Is this a limitation of aluminum , or are companies purposefully trying to market\sell their carbon bikes?
Because if you do not care so much about the weight of the bike soo much and or are not racing, the only other reason to get the carbon versions , is for these enhanced features like ISOSPEED and FUTURE SCHOCK, personally i rather prefer to have stronger frame, and have the ISOSPEED\ FUTURE SCHOCK on the aluminum bikes but i don't have that option.
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- price point? This is the explanation you're looking for. Manufacturers include features that differentiate based on price point. Otherwise, the lower models would cannibalize the upper models, a bad business practice.
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...and I rode alongside a fellow who had the Specialized version of the steerer tube isolation. I watched its action as we rode. He said that he liked it. Now, I was riding along side over the same roadway. Same bumps, same everything else. I was on an aluminum frame, aluminum fork, carbon-over-aluminum stem and carbon bars. His were carbon frame, isolation steerer, aluminum stem and bars. He was on 28mm tires.
So, this action was moving up and down, very lightly damped. I had a "rigid" setup with whatever inherent flex was in the carbon bar. And I was on 25mm tires.
I didn't feel a thing from the road, not a bit of input. So, why did his appear to be flexing?
Inefficiency. Underdamped with too light a spring tension, at least to my eye. Would I want that? Um, no.
So, this action was moving up and down, very lightly damped. I had a "rigid" setup with whatever inherent flex was in the carbon bar. And I was on 25mm tires.
I didn't feel a thing from the road, not a bit of input. So, why did his appear to be flexing?
Inefficiency. Underdamped with too light a spring tension, at least to my eye. Would I want that? Um, no.
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I noticed that features that are for comfort, like ISOSPEED of trek, and FUTURE SHOCK of Specialized, only come on the carbon bikes.
Why is it that these are not available on the aluminum versions of trek and specialized?
Is this a limitation of aluminum , or are companies purposefully trying to market\sell their carbon bikes?
Because if you do not care so much about the weight of the bike soo much and or are not racing, the only other reason to get the carbon versions , is for these enhanced features like ISOSPEED and FUTURE SCHOCK, personally i rather prefer to have stronger frame, and have the ISOSPEED\ FUTURE SCHOCK on the aluminum bikes but i don't have that option.
Why is it that these are not available on the aluminum versions of trek and specialized?
Is this a limitation of aluminum , or are companies purposefully trying to market\sell their carbon bikes?
Because if you do not care so much about the weight of the bike soo much and or are not racing, the only other reason to get the carbon versions , is for these enhanced features like ISOSPEED and FUTURE SCHOCK, personally i rather prefer to have stronger frame, and have the ISOSPEED\ FUTURE SCHOCK on the aluminum bikes but i don't have that option.
But regarding marketing and selling their up market models? -- Yes , definitely
The carboin frame is likely stronger than the aluminum frame though, - maybe a little bit lighter, but a bigger advantage to a high end carbon frame over aluminum is the frame can be made to have damping characteristics itself depending on how the carbon cloth is laid up
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Not hard to understand if you think about it.
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If they're successful, these features will eventually trickle down. Then they'll make different iterations to satisfy the various price points, as well as a gravel-specific version that the marketers will tell you has "revolutionized the sport."
In the meantime, there's always this technological wonder:
In the meantime, there's always this technological wonder:
Last edited by Rolla; 10-06-21 at 09:41 AM.
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The integrated frame storage might be one of the rare features that only carbon could easily accommodate. Shocks, decoupling designs, & other steering suspension features are likely equipped with bicycles that are more likely to sell at a higher price point.
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#8
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Upselling and different price brackets. While aluminum really isn't that much cheaper to produce than carbon, it is heavier and can't be produced in the aero shapes carbon can thus it's seen as less of performance oriented material. Yeah it be cool if manufactures gave us the same new tech on every model but how could they justify the prices for different models other than weight and group set?
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If they're successful, these features will eventually trickle down. Then they'll make different iterations to satisfy the various price points, as well as a gravel-specific version that the marketers will tell you has "revolutionized the sport."
In the meantime, there's always this technological wonder:
In the meantime, there's always this technological wonder:
Comfortable and fast as a scalded cat!
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Steel is real...and comfy.
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Upselling and different price brackets. While aluminum really isn't that much cheaper to produce than carbon, it is heavier and can't be produced in the aero shapes carbon can thus it's seen as less of performance oriented material. Yeah it be cool if manufactures gave us the same new tech on every model but how could they justify the prices for different models other than weight and group set?
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I'm not knocking it -- just an example of how "everything old is new again."
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#14
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If you mean the pic above, that is a Trek Emonda ALR (aluminum) frame. But I have a Domane SLR7 in the same color . I really like the Viper Red.
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Maybe the extra stuff is needed to enhance the ride and comfort of the carbon bikes.
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Trek had rear IsoSpeed in the Domane ALR (aluminum), not sure if they still do. Even with carbon frames, front IsoSpeed has always been a little more exclusive and, if you take one apart, it's clear that it's considerably more complicated and expensive than a normal head tube; working that in to an aluminum frame would probably be more difficult than with carbon and would most likely put it at a price point that doesn't make sense.
#17
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...and I rode alongside a fellow who had the Specialized version of the steerer tube isolation. I watched its action as we rode. He said that he liked it. Now, I was riding along side over the same roadway. Same bumps, same everything else. I was on an aluminum frame, aluminum fork, carbon-over-aluminum stem and carbon bars. His were carbon frame, isolation steerer, aluminum stem and bars. He was on 28mm tires.
So, this action was moving up and down, very lightly damped. I had a "rigid" setup with whatever inherent flex was in the carbon bar. And I was on 25mm tires.
I didn't feel a thing from the road, not a bit of input. So, why did his appear to be flexing?
Inefficiency. Underdamped with too light a spring tension, at least to my eye. Would I want that? Um, no.
So, this action was moving up and down, very lightly damped. I had a "rigid" setup with whatever inherent flex was in the carbon bar. And I was on 25mm tires.
I didn't feel a thing from the road, not a bit of input. So, why did his appear to be flexing?
Inefficiency. Underdamped with too light a spring tension, at least to my eye. Would I want that? Um, no.
- If you felt nothing from the road then you are either using hyperbole to try to make your point stronger or lack sufficient perception to feel nuances of the road, especially since you specifically mention bumps.
- There are multiple versions of Specialized Future Shock that you didn't seem interested enough to get or provide any details of which was on the bike in question, so that makes it difficult to say if it was version 1, 1.5 or 2.0 and if it was one that is adjustable, which spring was installed or what setting the dial was set to.
- 28 vs 25 tires tells us very little if we don't know the actual tire or pressure. A 28 Schwalbe Marathon is going to be a lot firmer than a 25 Schwalbe Pro One, similar for different pressures in each.
- Rider weight, balance and body position can certainly play a big role. If a rider's upper body is moving with each pedal stroke, they can be pushing & pulling on the bar causing the movement. Remember this is a suspension between rider and frame, not frame and wheel.
- If it was moving up and down, but not bottoming out and simply moving within it's normal range, then I wouldn't say it's underdamped.
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His bike was carbon to my eye, a matte green/grey color, and he said 2 years old, if that helps. His riding style was not particularly smooth and not especially strong, and he had some upper body bobbing, to be sure. I was able to catch him without a change in effort, and I'm maybe average or slightly above fitness for my age (among riders). He was retirement age, maybe mid-60s, but I'm guessing. How he pumped his tires is an unknown. Many folks overfill their tires, as you undoubtedly know.
About me, I'm 62, and have been riding since the early 1970s, and have owned and ridden (but not counted) maybe 80 bikes or so. I don't know. I'm pretty sensitive to the character of a bike when riding it, including the influences of fit, wheels and tires, and frame. In the scenario I've described, my bike was a fixed gear on a modified track frame. The frame is pretty stiff, the wheels less so, but as I described the bars have some flex in them. On my 25s, they are Conti Sport IIs - cheap but fairly pliable, and not durable - inflated to 93 front, 98 rear. I weight 176 or so. The bike weighs another 18-ish.
When I say imperceptible road input, I mean it. Smooth as glass to my feel, as compared with typical macadam in the mid-Atlantic, which begins to degrade and become rutted after three winters or so.
Anyway, if any of this is helpful, then good. But you made great points in your post.
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Excellent points. As to your question about "why I felt the need to judge...", I'm not sure, really. I was riding alongside him for about 3 miles on a freshly paved roadway and we had a chance to chat at length. As he was talking, I watched the suspension moving, and thought to myself "why would this be necessary at all, and why is it moving right now?"
His bike was carbon to my eye, a matte green/grey color, and he said 2 years old, if that helps. His riding style was not particularly smooth and not especially strong, and he had some upper body bobbing, to be sure. I was able to catch him without a change in effort, and I'm maybe average or slightly above fitness for my age (among riders). He was retirement age, maybe mid-60s, but I'm guessing. How he pumped his tires is an unknown. Many folks overfill their tires, as you undoubtedly know.
About me, I'm 62, and have been riding since the early 1970s, and have owned and ridden (but not counted) maybe 80 bikes or so. I don't know. I'm pretty sensitive to the character of a bike when riding it, including the influences of fit, wheels and tires, and frame. In the scenario I've described, my bike was a fixed gear on a modified track frame. The frame is pretty stiff, the wheels less so, but as I described the bars have some flex in them. On my 25s, they are Conti Sport IIs - cheap but fairly pliable, and not durable - inflated to 93 front, 98 rear. I weight 176 or so. The bike weighs another 18-ish.
When I say imperceptible road input, I mean it. Smooth as glass to my feel, as compared with typical macadam in the mid-Atlantic, which begins to degrade and become rutted after three winters or so.
Anyway, if any of this is helpful, then good. But you made great points in your post.
His bike was carbon to my eye, a matte green/grey color, and he said 2 years old, if that helps. His riding style was not particularly smooth and not especially strong, and he had some upper body bobbing, to be sure. I was able to catch him without a change in effort, and I'm maybe average or slightly above fitness for my age (among riders). He was retirement age, maybe mid-60s, but I'm guessing. How he pumped his tires is an unknown. Many folks overfill their tires, as you undoubtedly know.
About me, I'm 62, and have been riding since the early 1970s, and have owned and ridden (but not counted) maybe 80 bikes or so. I don't know. I'm pretty sensitive to the character of a bike when riding it, including the influences of fit, wheels and tires, and frame. In the scenario I've described, my bike was a fixed gear on a modified track frame. The frame is pretty stiff, the wheels less so, but as I described the bars have some flex in them. On my 25s, they are Conti Sport IIs - cheap but fairly pliable, and not durable - inflated to 93 front, 98 rear. I weight 176 or so. The bike weighs another 18-ish.
When I say imperceptible road input, I mean it. Smooth as glass to my feel, as compared with typical macadam in the mid-Atlantic, which begins to degrade and become rutted after three winters or so.
Anyway, if any of this is helpful, then good. But you made great points in your post.
I had a prior generation Roubaix with the first gen Future Shock and found it to be quite a bit more comfortable on the often very poor condition pavement here in New York. That was also compared to my Boardman SLS which also has a much lower stack height and running 25s vs 26-32s on the Roubaix, so not an even comparison otherwise. Now I've swapped the Roubaix for a gravel bike for my more comfortable, all weather, all terrain steed and find that even riding on 45s at much lower pressures, the Roubaix was probably slightly more comfortable on crappy pavement.
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Trek had rear IsoSpeed in the Domane ALR (aluminum), not sure if they still do. Even with carbon frames, front IsoSpeed has always been a little more exclusive and, if you take one apart, it's clear that it's considerably more complicated and expensive than a normal head tube; working that in to an aluminum frame would probably be more difficult than with carbon and would most likely put it at a price point that doesn't make sense.
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I think that's a lot of the cycling industry. Maybe it's for gravel riding. Most of the steel roadies I know are still on 23s/25s. The exception would be the bikes that came with 27 x 1 1/4. My inner circle of riders would be small, however.
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To be fair, I also have old school Selle Turbo saddles. That makes the ride comfortable no matter which bike you're riding.
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I don't see that with steel owners anymore than any other type of frame. In fact if anything it seems to be more of an current industry push to the larger tires. I mainly run 25's on most of my bikes as they give me the fastest ride on the rough chipseal roads. If I was riding on smooth Tarmac for sure I'd be using 23 or smaller. Heck, my De Rosa is running 700 x 22 in the front and 700 x 23 in the back right now and for comfort purposes I see no reason to go bigger. That's just how I got it when I took it in on trade.
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DO NOT feel any need to justify yourself on that! I completely reject this idea that we are not allowed to have our own thoughts, that making observations and having opinions and judgements is inherently bad. It's not. It's natural. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Lot's of hypocrisy incoming!
Lot's of hypocrisy incoming!
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