School me on Shimano hardware
06-25-22, 01:01 PM
#76
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Maybe you should have started off with a more specific question regarding matching drivetrain component speeds?
Most here (who also frequent the Bicycle Mechanics) subforum have a working understanding of indexed shifting -- the general concept is not rocket surgery; no offense to any component engineer or mechanic here -- but of course there are subtle nuances (e.g., mixing components across different Shimano generations and/or groups, matching cable pull ratios, freehub width, etc.) that only certain members (e.g., cxwrench ) have readily at their command. Generally, at least in my experience, most of these members have freely offered their expert advice in response to specific questions.
Assuming you really (1) have years of experience in the engineering field (IMHO, the "the" should really be replaced by an "an", both semantically and to reflect how most engineers would regard their respective expertise), (2) have some mechanical aptitude, and (3) are not afraid to do your own work, could you not have made more progress toward articulating one or more specific questions about what you had hoped to do with your bikes or by upgrading / swapping their components? The fact that you did not bother to do so, and instead posed a broad, open-ended, and rambling series of "questions" while requesting an entire body of "real world knowledge and experience", has been interpreted by some as laziness.
Yes, this is an interactive forum, and interaction involves give and take.
Most here (who also frequent the Bicycle Mechanics) subforum have a working understanding of indexed shifting -- the general concept is not rocket surgery; no offense to any component engineer or mechanic here -- but of course there are subtle nuances (e.g., mixing components across different Shimano generations and/or groups, matching cable pull ratios, freehub width, etc.) that only certain members (e.g., cxwrench ) have readily at their command. Generally, at least in my experience, most of these members have freely offered their expert advice in response to specific questions.
Assuming you really (1) have years of experience in the engineering field (IMHO, the "the" should really be replaced by an "an", both semantically and to reflect how most engineers would regard their respective expertise), (2) have some mechanical aptitude, and (3) are not afraid to do your own work, could you not have made more progress toward articulating one or more specific questions about what you had hoped to do with your bikes or by upgrading / swapping their components? The fact that you did not bother to do so, and instead posed a broad, open-ended, and rambling series of "questions" while requesting an entire body of "real world knowledge and experience", has been interpreted by some as laziness.
Yes, this is an interactive forum, and interaction involves give and take.
I'm still new enough at this that I'm only now learning how different the generations of the same model can be. I would have had to have more knowledge to even know to ask a more specific question. Maybe one of the resident experts could make a little project of identifying and distinguishing various models and generations and we could get a sticky. I did actually look for just such a resource before I posted this thread.
Writing about the "subtle nuances" is going to be some work but she doesn't have the basic knowledge (*) to use it. She probably isn't really asking for this information (*) So, it would be wasted effort to provide it. At this point (maybe, any point), she should avoid the issues of "nuance" and keep things simple.
* She thinks it might be "easy peasy" to swap 8 and 10 speed cassettes.
* She thinks it might be "easy peasy" to swap 8 and 10 speed cassettes.
06-25-22, 01:20 PM
#77
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I'm still new enough at this that I'm only now learning how different the generations of the same model can be. I would have had to have more knowledge to even know to ask a more specific question. Maybe one of the resident experts could make a little project of identifying and distinguishing various models and generations and we could get a sticky. I did actually look for just such a resource before I posted this thread.
You should assume that things you don't know anything about are going to be harder.
Asking to be "schooled" by asking vague, open-ended questions is kind of dismissive of the expertise of the people you expect to get answers from!
You aren't really starting in the right way (that's the point).
Your vague, open-ended questions are asking people to spend a lot of time writing a "brain dump" of information you can't use or aren't really interested. It's a waste of people's time.
You should ask fewer more-specific questions. Those take less effort to answer and it's easier to provide information that you can use.
It is often helpful for you to get answers if you show some competence at trying to doing some research on your own.
Last edited by njkayaker; 06-25-22 at 01:38 PM.
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06-25-22, 01:29 PM
#78
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I find it interesting how much experience is here yet so few are interested in making this place a resource for newcomers to learn.
06-25-22, 01:45 PM
#79
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What you are asking for is too much work (for no compensation). It's also information that would be useless for "newcomers" (novices?).
(The appropriate advice to "newcomers" would be to avoid this complexity entirely.)
Anyway, this is not really a resource for basic information. There's a whole freaking internet for that.
It doesn't seem you realize it but you come across as kinda lazy, kinda demanding, kinda entitled, and kinda dismissive of people you want to help you.
Last edited by njkayaker; 06-25-22 at 01:58 PM.
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06-25-22, 01:53 PM
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Some long-time (and frequently very helpful) posters have offered you suggestions for getting more useful info from the forum…and you are choosing to completely ignore it. You may want to reassess your approach.
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06-25-22, 03:48 PM
#82
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[Claris] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[Sora] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[105] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY | SHIMANO
[Ultegra] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY - SHIMANO ULTEGRA | SHIMANO
[Dura-Ace] 100 PRODUCTS HISTORY - DURA-ACE | SHIMANO
Again, I reiterate my suggestion for you to ask one or more specific questions that would help you solve a particular problem or accomplish a particular goal, rather than asking for the collective knowledge base of everyone here and then expect to (be able to) pick and choose the relevant portions for whatever it is you want to do with that. In the meantime, here are some good technical resources.
Sheldon Brown-Bicycle Technical Information
Technical FAQ - VeloNews.com
BikeGremlin | Mostly harmless ™
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 06-25-22 at 05:38 PM. Reason: To add Bike Gremlin
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06-25-22, 04:19 PM
#83
Old Worn Treads
After all these posts and pages, I'm just not getting VegasJen the OP at all . VegasJen says they "have a small collection of road bikes with a variety of Shimano parts including Integra, Claris and Sora." How the heck did they acquire a small collection without any knowledge of subject? And all low end. Like they're all rescue bikes or found on garbage day down the street lol? How the heck are they incapable of Googling something like "compare Sora vs Claris"? Asking questions like "is only difference how many speeds? Really?
Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.
That's it I'm out.
Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.
That's it I'm out.
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06-25-22, 04:45 PM
#84
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There is a wealth of experience in this place. There is also some snark. Stick around, if you don’t have a thin skin I think you will learn to like it.
06-25-22, 05:01 PM
#85
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Thread Starter
I appreciate your posts. You have been one of the members who has tried to legitimately help. In spite of the snarky ones, I have actually learned quite a lot from several of you. I do have a thick skin. This place is nothing compared to other forums I'm on. But I have little patience for some people who want to pretend they're helping when all they say, "just google it."
06-25-22, 05:26 PM
#86
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06-25-22, 07:57 PM
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I appreciate your posts. You have been one of the members who has tried to legitimately help. In spite of the snarky ones, I have actually learned quite a lot from several of you. I do have a thick skin. This place is nothing compared to other forums I'm on. But I have little patience for some people who want to pretend they're helping when all they say, "just google it."
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06-26-22, 05:53 AM
#88
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For example, I was looking to add some climbing gears to my older 10 speed Ultegra 6600 group set equipped crit bike.
I wanted to switch to a 11-32 cassette but NOS medium or long cage DR's were not available and the used ones on ebay were beat up or just hard to find.
The solution? Went to my LBS and talked with the owner. He recommended a 46-30 GRX crankset and damn, it works flawlessly. The clamp style FDR was adjusted and I now have a good climbing bike with a 46/30 and 12-27 ratio.
Another thing. Shimano no longer makes a 12-27 10 speed cassette so I had to buy a SRAM cassette with the same ratio.
My point is, "the devil is in the details."
No one person has all this nailed down unless they are working on thousands of bikes because this is not in the Shimano manuals.
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06-26-22, 07:14 AM
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I too am a novice. With that said I think the need to know about the intricacies of Shimano components goes with one's personal needs.
For example, I was looking to add some climbing gears to my older 10 speed Ultegra 6600 group set equipped crit bike.
I wanted to switch to a 11-32 cassette but NOS medium or long cage DR's were not available and the used ones on ebay were beat up or just hard to find.
The solution? Went to my LBS and talked with the owner. He recommended a 46-30 GRX crankset and damn, it works flawlessly. The clamp style FDR was adjusted and I now have a good climbing bike with a 46/30 and 12-27 ratio.
Another thing. Shimano no longer makes a 12-27 10 speed cassette so I had to buy a SRAM cassette with the same ratio.
My point is, "the devil is in the details."
No one person has all this nailed down unless they are working on thousands of bikes because this is not in the Shimano manuals.
For example, I was looking to add some climbing gears to my older 10 speed Ultegra 6600 group set equipped crit bike.
I wanted to switch to a 11-32 cassette but NOS medium or long cage DR's were not available and the used ones on ebay were beat up or just hard to find.
The solution? Went to my LBS and talked with the owner. He recommended a 46-30 GRX crankset and damn, it works flawlessly. The clamp style FDR was adjusted and I now have a good climbing bike with a 46/30 and 12-27 ratio.
Another thing. Shimano no longer makes a 12-27 10 speed cassette so I had to buy a SRAM cassette with the same ratio.
My point is, "the devil is in the details."
No one person has all this nailed down unless they are working on thousands of bikes because this is not in the Shimano manuals.
https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam...20CONSUMER.pdf
https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/infor...ad-compon.html
06-26-22, 08:05 AM
#90
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I’m sure your shop is good, but Shimano has actually been very explicit about this. In fact, you don’t even have to refer to the manuals – it’s in the marketing literature:
https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam...20CONSUMER.pdf
https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/infor...ad-compon.html
https://bike.shimano.com/content/dam...20CONSUMER.pdf
https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/infor...ad-compon.html
GRX Crank and Front Derailleur
Shimano GRX cranksets feature a +2.5mm outboard chainline, which improves rear tire clearance, making room for wide gravel tires. This also means that the GRX crank’s Q-Factor is +2.5mm wider on each side compared to Shimano road cranks. Due to the wider crank and chainline, GRX cranks must be used in conjunction with a GRX front derailleur for 2x11 and 2x10 drivetrains.But CAT7RDR seems to have got it working with a clamp on road derailleur?
06-26-22, 09:20 AM
#91
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I think this may be an instance where the Shimano documentation does not tell the full story. Second article linked above says:
But CAT7RDR seems to have got it working with a clamp on road derailleur?
GRX Crank and Front Derailleur
Shimano GRX cranksets feature a +2.5mm outboard chainline, which improves rear tire clearance, making room for wide gravel tires. This also means that the GRX crank’s Q-Factor is +2.5mm wider on each side compared to Shimano road cranks. Due to the wider crank and chainline, GRX cranks must be used in conjunction with a GRX front derailleur for 2x11 and 2x10 drivetrains.But CAT7RDR seems to have got it working with a clamp on road derailleur?
06-26-22, 09:26 AM
#92
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Any ideas what the relevant differences might be? The two I mentioned (sliding clamp vs. braise-on, and Di2 vs. mechanical) are my guesses, but I haven't done the control.
06-26-22, 09:35 AM
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Mine did (11 speed Di2). I am curious about the differences. In my case, I have a clamp-on front derailleur mount and a constant-diameter (steel) seat tube, so there were no limits to sliding it up and down. Properly positioned, the cage could easily be adjusted via the H-limit screw to allow for a 46/30T GRX crankset (which is a more extreme case than 48/31T).
Any ideas what the relevant differences might be? The two I mentioned (sliding clamp vs. braise-on, and Di2 vs. mechanical) are my guesses, but I haven't done the control.
Any ideas what the relevant differences might be? The two I mentioned (sliding clamp vs. braise-on, and Di2 vs. mechanical) are my guesses, but I haven't done the control.
But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
Last edited by Koyote; 06-26-22 at 09:47 AM.
06-26-22, 10:19 AM
#94
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I have two wheel-sets. One has an 11-34T and the other and 11-36T. Mine was DIY, and I previously had a White Industries 46/30T crankset on there, so I was fairly confident I could make it work.
Shimano says don't do it, and bike shops have to be cautious in those situations. (A more cynical motive might be to sell more Di2 parts.)
Shimano says don't do it, and bike shops have to be cautious in those situations. (A more cynical motive might be to sell more Di2 parts.)
Last edited by Polaris OBark; 06-26-22 at 10:22 AM.
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06-26-22, 11:06 AM
#95
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06-26-22, 04:47 PM
#96
Old Worn Treads
48/31 sorta breaks rule of 16 for cranks.
Hmm. Mine was also a clamp-on Ultegra Di2 11sp fd. Shop said they couldn’t get it adjusted quite right with the 48-31 crankset. Perhaps the cassette makes a difference? I was running an 11-34 at the time, which is pushing the limits. That, along with the one tooth difference in the chainrings, could be factors…?
But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
But the real point is that any good shop would’ve tried it first with the existing fd. There’s no reason not to.
06-26-22, 04:58 PM
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06-27-22, 12:35 AM
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06-27-22, 04:50 AM
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06-27-22, 05:30 AM
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After all these posts and pages, I'm just not getting VegasJen the OP at all . VegasJen says they "have a small collection of road bikes with a variety of Shimano parts including Integra, Claris and Sora." How the heck did they acquire a small collection without any knowledge of subject? And all low end. Like they're all rescue bikes or found on garbage day down the street lol? How the heck are they incapable of Googling something like "compare Sora vs Claris"? Asking questions like "is only difference how many speeds? Really?
Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.
That's it I'm out.
Seems to me it's more a troll baiting us all. I'm done caring or helping. If not, easier to show them how to fish than feed them. Just Google "compare Sora vs Claris", "Shimano group hierarchy", etc.
That's it I'm out.
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