streetcore

Hey everyone,

I'm replacing the headset on a vintage Raleigh Gran Sport and ordered a Tange Seiki Levin CDS. I've only done one other threaded headset in the past and this Levin Headset has two extra rubberized washers that weren't in the headset I did before. They're not shown on the instruction sheet either. So I just want to make sure I'm putting them in the right place and in the correct orientation. From what I can tell these washers should sit on the crown cone and the upper cone, but does the rubberized side of the washer face the bearing as shown in the attached pics or does it face the cone? They appear to fit very loosely, so I'm not sure what purpose they serve either.

Thanks.






Here's a pic of the old headset on the Raleigh Gran Sport.

Raleigh Gran Sport headset

dddd

Usually there is some kind of "step" feature molded into the ring, which would mate with the ID or OD of an adjacent part. That's how I determine the direction.

These are sealing rings, not washers. Test-assemble the parts per the above note before installation, to verify free rotation.

streetcore

Thanks for the quick reply, but unfortunately I have bigger problems to worry about since it looks like I ordered the wrong headset. The eBay listing didn't show a drawing with measurements like I just found online and didn't list the cup size, but did say "S.H.I.S Upper: EC30 S.H.I.S Lower: EC30". I wrongly assumed this meant the cups were 30mm like my old ones, but the new ones are actually 30.2mm.

oneclick 

You may have another problem that you have not yet realised. Check that your steerer is actually 24 TPI; the Gran Sport I'm working on is 26 TPI.

unworthy1

Looks to me you have that one on the race pointed correctly with the "square raised ridge" toward the bearings. I have noticed a very slight difference between these seals on SOME Tange HS for example on a HS I think is a Passage model the one for top of stack is a little wider than the one for bottom stack, so minor I'm not even sure if it's just a manufacturing tolerance but I place them back in same places they were removed from. And these were all-plastic seals, no metal in them AFAIK.

Charles Wahl

Leaving aside the possible 26 tpi issue, here's what may be going on -- refer to the attached Sutherland's manual table that shows: a) "English" and (probably copying English) Japanese standards for pressed cup/race having diameter 30 mm and head tube milled to 29.8 mm, b) a "Campagnolo/Professional" standard (with "Italian" and "French" following suit, except for a 0.1 mm quibble regarding crown race ID) that has both dimensions 0.2 mm larger. That's what most "professional" grade headsets made by everyone since the 70s bike boom are: 26.4 mm crown race and 30.2 mm cups. If your old cups are indeed 30.0 mm, then you'd probably need a Japanese (meaning JIS standard) replacement (yes, I know that Tange is Japanese, but I think the bulk of their sales here are to the 30.2 mm crowd).



On the other hand, there's this note on Sheldon Brown's/Harris Cyclery site (YourMileageMayVary, not sure I'd try the "jam"):
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/...eaded-jis.html

Note that Harris's headset does (according to them, and they should know) have a 27.0 mm crown race, along with the 30.2 mm cups. Go figure what Tange was thinking.

Measure your head tube openings with a caliper, presuming you have one, and see if you think they're large enough to accept the slightly larger cups; and while you're at it, check the diameter of your crown race seat, and the old crown race and the new one too -- on older English bikes that can be either the same as the 26.5/26.6 "Italian" standard (not to be confused with the "Campagnolo" standard, which is even smaller), or slightly larger 27.0/27.1, which would be another problem. It's quite simple for a well-equipped and knowledgeable/experienced bike tech to ream the head tube and fork crown seat to accept, in perpetuity, the more modern "Professional" 30.2 mm cups and 26.4 mm crown race.

Here are the "notes" for the Sutherland's table, just for completeness' sake:


Getting back to the 26 tpi thread possibility: note that if your steerer were threaded per the Sutherland's "Raleigh" standard (anything's possible with Raleigh), then the cups should be 30.2 diameter, though the crown race would be 27.0/27.1.

Finally, in later years, there's the Standardized Headset Identification System (SHIS, not very far from the word I'm inclined to use about now), where "EC30" is the 30.2 cup / 30.0 head tube hole variant, and "EC29" is the 30.0/29.8 variant:

Thanks to Park Tool: https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...ication-system

The internet would lead you to believe that purveyors of bike parts still sell a "real" JIS headset, though most of them seem to be "out of stock" these days. But you can find them on eBay still (at least, I found one) -- mainly, as you might expect, in England.

While measuring things, be sure to check your stack height (the difference between steerer length from base of crown seat to top of steerer), because a lot of earlier bikes used fairly low-stack headsets (33 to 35) rather than the latter-day (say from later 70s onward) stacks that range in the high 30s to low 40s. You don't want to find out that having assembled everything, your new headset locknut has two threads to fasten everything down! Of course, this, too, can be solved, within reason, by milling the head tube height down a bit to increase the stack. Just more bike shop work.

I think I first heard this in relation to computer operating systems, which came later, but it's fairly applicable where bike components are concerned: "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from". Headsets are something that make restoring a French bike seem comparatively easy -- at least they had one wacky standard for things, and generally stuck with it (except when they didn't, like providing Swiss bottom bracket threading on up-market French bikes).

And going to your question about the plastic seals: if there's a groove in the races to accept the "land" projecting from one side, then install them with the land in the groove. If no groove in races, then install them with the land facing away from the cup, so that the cup, when seated down (or threaded, for top cup) onto the seal will push the tapered edge in the direction of the land. Make sense?

streetcore

Thanks for all the info. Lots to digest there. I double checked the threads with a pitch gauge and it is 24TPI. Also double checked the dimensions with digital calipers: the crown race l.D. is 27mm, the cups are 30mm, and steerer tube O.D. is 25.4mm, which I guess makes it a J.I.S Standard.

I don't know what year this bike was made. It belonged to a neighbour who passed away recently and his wife gave it to me. It says "Made in England" on it, so I thought it was one of the better models. Now I'm not sure and it sounds like the J.I.S. headset were used mostly on cheaper bikes from Asia.

I like the idea of having a bike shop ream the frame cups to 30.2mm. I'll call a couple and see if they can do that and how the price compares to ordering another headset.

Cheers.

streetcore

Here's a couple pics of the frame. It would be great if someone could help me date it too

natterberry 

I bought a full JIS Tange from Velomine not too terribly long ago.

Edit: Yeah sold out currently.

JohnDThompson 

Assuming you can't return the headset for a proper size replacement, it's fairly trivial to mill a 30.0mm ID head to use 30.2mm headset parts.

If it turns out your fork is the mutant 26tpi steer tube thread, you can install the new lower race and keep using the original upper race and threaded parts as long as the stack height is reasonably close. Upper headset races seldom wear out, as the lower race bears all the load while the upper race only serves to hold alignment. In that case, you'd only want to mill the lower head tube to accept the new parts.

C9H13N 

It’s one of the better Raleigh models of that era and well worth the cost of getting it back on the road.

The paint scheme on your bike matches the 1976 catalog picture, although you have a Raleigh branded SR crank instead of a Stronglight 93.

streetcore

I called one of the two bike shops around here and asked about reaming out the head tube and the guy said "we don't do that kind of thing, you'd need special tools for something like that". I went in there looking for parts when I fixed my last vintage bike and they weren't much help then either. It was pretty obvious they weren't interested in dealing with the older stuff.

Charles Wahl

It looks like your head tube is painted on the inside, at least on top. I suggest that you measure the head tube openings with your caliper, before doing anything else, and see if you're close to 30. If so, then removing the paint would make some kind of difference, maybe enough to allow use of the 30.2 mm cups. Whether the existing headset's crown race could be used with a new cup, that's a crapshoot.

The other approach is simply to find and buy a true ("full") JIS headset with a stack height that will work with your frame & fork. They've got to be out there -- the Keirin (NJS) track people probably have a lot of Japanese frames and a C&V component too. The Tange-Seiki Levin CDS is a reasonably low-stack model.

JohnDThompson 

I'd put it around late 70s to early 80s.

It's a mid level bike. The JIS headset spec was copied from the British headset spec. British and JIS spec headsets were available at all price points, from cheap stamped units to precision ground and polished high-end units. Tange-Seiki still offers most of their models in both ISO and JIS spec.

Sounds like you struck out on finding a shop to ream the head tube. Bummer. The Tange "Levin" is a decent headset available in JIS spec and not too dear.

jdawginsc 

In Ontario Canada, there HAS to be a good vintage shop that works with older bicycles and has the reaming tools.

Big box stores like Trek and the like definitely want the new bike business.

I am lucky enough to have one single shop that likes working with vintage. They were able to re-tap a buggered Italian BB thread for $40 and refaced while they were at it. Unfortunately the Faggin is too small for me...

Moe Zhoost

Do a search for frame builders in your area. There's bound to be a few near Toronto.

I'm curious why you wanted to replace the headset. My experience with '70s vintage Raleigh headsets is that they are pretty darn tough. My main commuting bike is a 1972 Super Course with probably close to 35,000 miles on it and the headset cups and races are perfect. Likewise on my 1974 Competition.

Good luck.

JohnDThompson 

Ontario is a huge province, and much of it is quite remote. Many places would be lucky to have a Canadian Tire and Tim Hortons, let alone an actual bike shop.

jdawginsc 

My stupidity...I read it, and was thinking of Ottawa...eek. That was dumb.

Disregard!!!!

NatusEstInSuht

It looks like you have a Carlton-built Raleigh frame. They were made in Worksop, which is about 40km north of Nottingham. Check the bottom bracket. If the serial number begins with 'W', then it's a Carlton-built frame.

Here's a link to information on how to determine your frame's build date. https://raleigh-sb4059.com/2018/08/3...ucts-division/

streetcore

There would be lots in Toronto, but I'm 3 hours away. So not really an option for something like this. The steering was basically seized when I got the bike. The bars were hard to turn, felt gritty, and there was at least one "click stop". When I took the headset apart the bearing cups looked like they were scored quite heavily. However, I just cleaned them up and now I'm thinking it may have been machine marks I was seeing. The bottom cup has the same marks inside the part that fits into the head tube. So maybe that's the way it was made, but I'm not sure. I think I will grease everything up and put it back together and see how it feels. The last bike I fixed had similar problems, but cleaning and greasing didn't get rid of the click stop. So I ended up having to replace the headset. That's why I just went ahead and ordered a new one this time.

Here's a few pics.

jdawginsc 

I think one of our members does refinishing of races... maybe Mad Honk ?

Charles Wahl

I'd re-ball that headset and reinstall it. If the top and bottom edges of the head tube are painted, I'd consider removing the paint to bare steel (or better yet, having a shop mill the head tube openings parallel) to get a more solid seat for the bottom cup and top race. 25 5/32" balls in each, for most 1" headsets, though Sutherland's says 26 5/32" balls for a Raleigh Atalet model, which, unless I'm mistaken, is what you have there. At any rate, grease the race well, add balls evenly until the last one creates a "crowd" or unevenness, then remove two. Always better to have one too few than one too many. Be very careful when mating race to cup, so that you don't dislodge any. Don't use a magnet to install balls. I try never to use a magnet with bearings (or races or cups), because magnetization does weird things to the way things roll -- but that's just me.

Moe Zhoost

It's always iffy to gauge by pictures, but the bearing tracks on those cups and races don't look too bad to me. Let us know how it works out when you reinstall.

streetcore

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I can buy loose ball bearings around here either and mail order takes awhile, so I'll put it back together with the old bearings and see how it feels. I took 48 bearings out, so hopefully that's enough to put it back together.

Thanks for the info. I was wondering what the CARLTON sticker on the frame meant and the serial number does start with W.

repechage

these OEM headsets rarely die.
consider turning the cups and race to new orientations, fresh bearing and hunt for a new brake cable hanger. These headsets also had a pretty low stack height. I would spend $ and effort elsewhere on the project, not on the headset unless totally indented.

and consider most bike shops today equal to going to a car repair shop with a car that uses points and a condenser ignition...