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Suntour sealed bearing 6/7 speed hubs

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Suntour sealed bearing 6/7 speed hubs

Old 09-19-15, 07:19 PM
  #26  
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I paid $25.00 for these.



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Old 09-19-15, 07:34 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by jjames1452 View Post
I have to ask, and I understand supply and demand and economics, too much?
I'm not sure you do.

Its not a homogenous good. There aren't readily available substitutes. If he wanted a Suntour sealed bearing hub the clearing price is mostly going to be a function of the Supply curve, and your preference (or demand curve) isn't really relevant to the clearing price above your $180 limit. If there is one good available, the clearing price is simply a function of the preference of one buyer to pay what they are willing. Scarcity dominates for old vintage & classic bike components. They aren't making more. Supply (relatively few) and Demand just showed you the current market price at that time, space, and place.

The concept of "too much" to me implies not understanding supply/demand in a competitive bidding market like eBay. That's a normative concept, and there is nothing normative, ought, should, correct price about it. Simply put, if you want something bid more if you can afford it. Complaining about someone else wanting it more than you do, or having more income for which to spend on kool vintage bike parts make me think more people need to take introductory Econ 101.

That being said there really is no such thing as a Suntour hub. Suntour hubs are just rebranded Sansin hubs. ALL Suntour branded hubs were built by Sansin. Try looking for Sansin sealed bearing hubs, but those are pretty pricey too. The problem is that many hipsters who are obsessed with building "NJS" bikes are learning that cup/cone bearing builds inherently are problematic with races that wear out and the inevitable "death spiral" of marring bearings, races and cones. Cartridge bearing hubs allow you restore the hub and races to "new" every time you pull the sealed bearing. You can replace the ball bearings, you can replace the cones, but with a cone/loose bearing hub the weak link in the chain is the inner race, always.

Suzue made some nice hubs too, if you get priced out of Sansin (Suntours). However, I'd be looking at vintage Mavic if I were you. I've got the Sansin hubs that are identical to the Superbe Pro, and they were better than anything else they built, imo. That being said I still prefer Phil Wood and Mavic hubs, and its not even close. Mavic uses a SUPER STRONG alloy axle not just threaded steel rod. There are really no vintage hubs I'd put on par with a Mavic 501 hubs. Sealed cartridge bearings. Bombproof axles that are only slightly narrower than Phil Woods, as on the Mavic they neck down at the bearings. You read that right. A Mavic SSC hub is almost on par with legendary Phil Wood touring hubs.

BikePro.com / Buyer's Guide / Archive Reviews of Mavic Hubs - Bicycle Parts at discount prices / the Buyer's Guide / Bicycle Parts at their finest! / Professional Bicycle Source / Bike Pro

Phil Wood touring hubs famously use 15mm axles. Mavic rear hubs used a 15mm/14.8mm axle that necked down to just 12mm at the bearing. Good enough for Sean Kelly to win tour stages, and good enough for Greg Lemond to win a tour on. They spin forever, and can be brought back to "new" forever with just a simple bearing change. Absolutely eliminating the "death spiral" problems of cone/loose bearing hubs.

How strong were Mavic hubs? So strong that when they debuted their Mavic mountain bike group they didn't even design a new hub. They just extended the axle to 135mm and called their TdF stage/GC winning hub as a "mountain bike" hub, as the Mavic 531.

How the heck do you beat light, fast, forever "new", almost as strong as Phil Wood touring hubs, and Mavic too? You can't. I'd never consider the Sansin branded Superbe Pro hubs better than Mavic 501s, and I'm about the biggest Superbe Pro fan around with two full Superbe Pro bike builds.

Heck, I even prefer the Mavic 640 pedal over the Superbe Pro pedals, and there is NO question the Superbe Pro/XC Pro pedals were superior with their Grease Guard technology and just better "looks." I guess I'm just a Mavic guy.

Which brings us back to your frustration. You bid against someone that was just a Suntour guy. There was just one of that good available. He wanted it more, or had more money. That's just simple economics. The concept of "too much" implies not understanding that. Would I pay $180 for Suntour hubs? Heck no. I only paid $60 for a nearly new 130mm Phil Wood black freewheel hub last week. That's about what I'd spend for a Mavic 501/531/571/577 hub. I'll spend a bit more for Mavic Paris Dakar just because the wacky color stickers matches the sticker on the 845 derailleur, and some headsets. However, $180 doesn't even get you in the conversation of Mavic 571 or 571/2 subsets. Those sell for around $250.

So is $180, "too much" for a set of vintage or classic hub? For someone who lives in a country with a Central Planning Committee and price controls, probably. However, the good scarcity, black market, wait lists and lines would probably leave even those people with a pretty grass roots understanding of supply/demand equilibrium. For the rest of us, its inevitable to realize that the cost of C&V components is just climbing. They aren't exactly making more and all this old stuff is quality, and Suntour/Sansin hubs were from "peak Japan" component era of quality, fit, finish and polish. Compare what you get for $180 to what's available on the market now, as new current stock. Its all plasticky crap with no soul, design flow, or beauty (in my mind). Plus its all finicky 9/10/ad nauseum nonsense.

People aren't stupid. They realize that 6/7 speed hubs have less dish, and if they are Mavic or Sansin (Suntour) they are better quality hubs than what you can buy today, or what manufacturers can afford to sell today. Still "8-speed is king" with the balance of dish, shifting reliability and such. Who wants to adjust/tune their 9/10 speed drivetrains every third ride? So considering these were grail 8-speed was $180 too much? Hardly. I don't even prefer Suntour, but those hubs at $180 were a veritable bargain, compared to the available substitutes. Not even to get into rare drill hubs that command a premium.
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Old 09-19-15, 08:01 PM
  #28  
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Then I'll offer you $50 plus shipping. You can't lose!
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
I paid $25.00 for these.

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Old 09-19-15, 08:31 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jiangshi View Post
Sprint is the highest level sealed cartridge hub in the Suntour lineup.
Not always the case...these are '87/88 Sprint 9000 7 speed Accushift group and have loose balls and cones.

Last edited by clubman; 09-19-15 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 09-20-15, 04:48 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Then I'll offer you $50 plus shipping. You can't lose!

I also have a set of the WTB Suntour hubs with the Grease fittings on them, those are NOS too. Got those for $60 with Skewers. I can post a picture of them if you want.
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Old 09-20-15, 06:15 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Not always the case...these are '87/88 Sprint 9000 7 speed Accushift group and have loose balls and cones.

Just pop them out and replace them. 6001 Bearings are easy to find. Here is a link for Superbe Pro they are the same as Sprint.

https://leylandp38.wordpress.com/201...perbe-pro-hub/
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Old 09-20-15, 08:00 AM
  #32  
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My Sprint hubs have typical machined races for loose bearings. The other hub shown on your link looks to be made for sealed bearing units. You can see the squared profile in this pic below. I don't think they are interchangeable but someone will correct me if I'm wrong.


Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
Just pop them out and replace them. 6001 Bearings are easy to find. Here is a link for Superbe Pro they are the same as Sprint.

https://leylandp38.wordpress.com/201...perbe-pro-hub/
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Old 09-20-15, 08:04 AM
  #33  
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That's odd mine use 6001 sealed bearings. Like the ones in the link. Maybe they are a newer model...Or older?
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Old 09-20-15, 08:19 AM
  #34  
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Here's an old thread on cleaning and repacking sealed-hub-bearings.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...l#post10006421
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Old 09-20-15, 08:35 AM
  #35  
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Can we clarify which are which? I have NOS 36 hole Superbe Pro freewheel hubset that has never been built. It has the later style laser'd logo on it. Pretty sure it is cartridge bearing. The rear has some gritty quality to it. Not sure if it needs to be adjusted or if bearings need replaced.
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Old 09-20-15, 06:00 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Can we clarify which are which? I have NOS 36 hole Superbe Pro freewheel hubset that has never been built. It has the later style laser'd logo on it. Pretty sure it is cartridge bearing. The rear has some gritty quality to it. Not sure if it needs to be adjusted or if bearings need replaced.
Somewhere along the way Suntour Superbe Pro switched over to cartridge bearings....oddly enough at the same time Cyclone was the only hub to have cup/cone bearings. I have no idea when the change over occurred but suspect it was around the change over to Alpha designations
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Old 09-20-15, 06:12 PM
  #37  
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Back to the question of 'too much'. I say yes and here's my rationale.

There's no question Superbe Pro hubs are high quality rivaling Dura Ace and Record. If your looking to complete a Superbe Pro build I can see someone paying $200+ for a NOS set. To that person they're worth it and that's all that matters.It's the overall scarcity I have a problem with. In the future, if you need cones your screwed. Suntour didn't sell a lot of Superbe Pro hubs and they sure as heck didn't make a lot of replacement parts. Perhaps I'm a little different than other people but that's a primary reason I shy away from certain parts.

I'm a Dura Ace guy but I try not to buy Dura Ace hubs because a majority of them I come across, and Record hubs as well, need cones. Has anyone tried to source 74XX Dura Ace cones? Good luck with that.... Has anyone tried to source Record cones? Easy, easy. Heck, I have 20+ NOS rear cones and maybe 10 NOS fronts in my spare parts box. Do I have any Dura Ace cones? Nope.

I'm not saying Superbe Pro cup/cone hubs are obsolete but if you need cones for them they are obsolete. That's my issue with paying $200+.

Supply and demand? ehhh.... Only 2 people bid. If another set comes up for sale the guy who came in second is going to get one hell of a deal.
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Old 09-20-15, 09:21 PM
  #38  
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I'm switching my commuters over to sealed cartridge hubs. I have a bunch of them and they do seem to last a very long time with minimal or no maintenance. If/when the bearings go bad, it's easy to make them new again by just swapping in some new bearings. I really like not having to worry about the last time I packed or adjusted the hubs since my commuter bikes don't get much attention until something breaks. The Specialized ones are my favorites but I also have some Suntour and a few sets of Performance branded hubs.
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Old 09-21-15, 03:57 AM
  #39  
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I am going to look for a 36 hole set of Mavic 501's and build a wheel set.
Never heard of them, but if they rival Phil, I'm all in.
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Old 09-21-15, 04:14 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jjames1452 View Post
I am going to look for a 36 hole set of Mavic 501's and build a wheel set.
Never heard of them, but if they rival Phil, I'm all in.
the 500 and 550 use sealed bearings, too. I'm not sure, but I don't think any of their hubs used loose bearings.
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Old 09-21-15, 03:27 PM
  #41  
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Replacement cones aren't a problem if you have one of these.

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Old 09-21-15, 07:27 PM
  #42  
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Can anyone tell me what model I have? I got this wheel set a few years back at a lawn sale for next to nothing. Laced to Araya rims with double butted spokes. They still spin like new. Skewers say Sunshine and Marking's are: Suntour ZE

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Old 09-21-15, 07:39 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
Here's an old thread on cleaning and repacking sealed-hub-bearings.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...l#post10006421
Its nonsensical to clean and repack sealed bearings.

The ENTIRE point of sealed bearings is that you are avoiding the "death spiral" issues that plague cone/loose ball setups. Cleaning loose balls doesn't address the scoring, marring, and roughening of the balls. Cleaning and regreasing the sealed bearings doesn't address the issues with galling, scoring, marring of the races.

The entire point of sealed bearings is that when you replace them, you literally put new inner and outer races and new ball bearings in the hub. No matter how well you maintain a loose bearing/cup hub it is a constant "death spiral" to becoming more inefficient and more damaged. No amount of polishing can ever return the hub to the original tolerances and efficiency. With loose/cone setups you can, at most replace the loose balls and the outer cone, but never the inner race.

To me there is never a reason to service sealed bearings. Ever. They are very inexpensive.

The proper way to do it is NOT how most shops do it with a punch. The proper way to remove sealed bearings is to use a dedicated sealed bearing extractor, sometimes referred to as a blind hole extractor along with a slide hammer. The proper way to reinstall them is to have the correct drift and a press.

Not having the right tools isn't a valid reason to waste time servicing sealed bearings. IMO, anyway. Part of having bikes and being a cyclist means needing certain tools, or being willing to pay shop rates for maintenance, alternatively. The trouble is most shops do it wrong. You wouldn't believe how many shops use a punch to remove bearings.
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Old 09-21-15, 08:03 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
Back to the question of 'too much'. I say yes and here's my rationale.

There's no question Superbe Pro hubs are high quality rivaling Dura Ace and Record. If your looking to complete a Superbe Pro build I can see someone paying $200+ for a NOS set. To that person they're worth it and that's all that matters.It's the overall scarcity I have a problem with. In the future, if you need cones your screwed. Suntour didn't sell a lot of Superbe Pro hubs and they sure as heck didn't make a lot of replacement parts. Perhaps I'm a little different than other people but that's a primary reason I shy away from certain parts.

I'm a Dura Ace guy but I try not to buy Dura Ace hubs because a majority of them I come across, and Record hubs as well, need cones. Has anyone tried to source 74XX Dura Ace cones? Good luck with that.... Has anyone tried to source Record cones? Easy, easy. Heck, I have 20+ NOS rear cones and maybe 10 NOS fronts in my spare parts box. Do I have any Dura Ace cones? Nope.

I'm not saying Superbe Pro cup/cone hubs are obsolete but if you need cones for them they are obsolete. That's my issue with paying $200+.

Supply and demand? ehhh.... Only 2 people bid. If another set comes up for sale the guy who came in second is going to get one hell of a deal.
Um…is anyone going to point out to him that the entire point of the thread was discussing the clearing price on Superbe Pro SEALED BEARING hubs? I'm not sure he understands the difference between crappy loose ball/cone setups and sealed bearings.

Campy and Shimano stuck with loose ball and cone setups forever. Not because Campagnolo and Dura-Ace hubs were good kit, not because these hubs rolled or even raced efficiently, but because they were simply cheeper and simpler to manufacture. I love Campagnolo stuff, but most Campy stuff isn't half as descent as the reputation that precedes it. In fact following the demise of Zeus, Campagnolo stuff definitely took a step backwards. Where Campagnolo top shelf stuff had previously been dripping with Titanium, and this was advertised with gaudy silk screening, the use of titanium bits to lighten Campy components isn't the same on modern stuff. Even the highest end Campy of the current generation has cheap alloy and steel bits that on previous generations would have been titanium. So much in cycling is a function of the ignorant masses not comprehending the difference between what actually is good kit, and what is marketed and has a reputation as being good kit.

Most people didn't know how much better Mavic hubs were than Campy and Shimano offerings. Campy and Shimano were still selling threaded steel rod axles with loose ball/cone setups forever, into the 9/10 era I believe. Mavic had huge and lightweight alloy axles and sealed bearing hubs back during 7/8 speed era.

To the poster here, though, there is NO issue with sourcing Superbe Pro cones because if you get good Suntour Superbe Hubs they are sealed bearings, that are infinity serviceable back to a "new" state by simply pressing in new sealed bearings. There are NO cones and no loose balls. That's lost on you I think. Superbe Pro hubs were always just Sansin anyway. Sansin and Mavic were so far ahead of the curve it wasn't even funny. Still everyone thinks Dura-Ace and Campagnolo was good kit. Just like a Campagnolo derailleur was good kit simply because it said Campy on it? Anyone who knows anything knows that Suntour slant parallelogram derailleurs of that era were actually better shifting. Same with hubs. Superbe Pro sealed bearing hubs were well ahead of the curve. They are "forever" hubs provided you don't crash them, because the sealed bearing nature allows them to be returned to "new." Every bike coop is full of crappy old Campy and high end Shimano loose ball/cone hub that say Record, Chorus, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace. Garbage with a fancy group name on it is still garbage.

Vintage sealed bearing hubs are special. They are interesting because they led the tech curve, advancing the paradigm change. They are interesting for being not just good kit, but better kit. They are interesting because you can't get them anymore. Riding with around with Superbe Pro hubs is a statement that you're not a lemming in a Shimanoculture world. You know better. You actually have good components, not just components the manufacturer wants you to think are good.
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Old 09-21-15, 08:07 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Replacement cones aren't a problem if you have one of these.

Simply put, no.

The absolute one place on a bike that requires heat treatment is cones. Being able to machine cones without heat treatment isn't really a solution. Cones that work through the thin layer of heat treated metal (thousands of an inch usually on Campy cones anyway) quickly degrade through the "death spiral." No matter how many times you replace the outer cone or put in new ball bearings, the inner race will transfer the marring, scoring, and roughness to the new balls and then to the new cone, which will all in turn continue to wear and destroy the inner race.

Cone/loose bearings on bicycle hubs are just a bad design that has everything to do with manufacturing efficiencies and economies of production, and nothing to do with being good kit. Any hub that needs a replacement outer cone on it, almost by definition has such a marred, scored and damaged inner race that machining a new outer cone and putting new balls in it is almost pointless. Polishing out the inner race doesn't do anything but make the tolerances more sloppy, and removes more of the thin remaining heat treatment remaining on the race (if any).
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Old 09-22-15, 03:30 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Replacement cones aren't a problem if you have one of these.

But then, what is a problem if you have one of these? Nothing!!
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Old 09-22-15, 08:07 AM
  #47  
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Some people simply kill a thread by being on it.

I'll enjoy riding my ball bearing Suntour hubs, cleaning them and re-packing them, and not giving a rat's ass about the details.
I've also enjoyed riding my sealed bearing Sansin hubs, Suzue hubs, or whatever hubs. Modern sealed bearing hubs are fine.
I prefer a well-packed ball bearing hub, period. Ignorance is bliss.

If they roll, then they roll. No biggie.
After winning the TdF 27 times, I have nothing to prove.
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Old 09-22-15, 08:25 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by mtnbke View Post
Um…is anyone going to point out to him that the entire point of the thread was discussing the clearing price on Superbe Pro SEALED BEARING hubs? I'm not sure he understands the difference between crappy loose ball/cone setups and sealed bearings..
I hope your not referring to me.....
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Old 09-22-15, 09:31 AM
  #49  
Pars 
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Some people simply kill a thread by being on it.
Uhhh, yep

I have campy hubs that have been in their "death spiral" for 40+ years. Sure, I don't put thousands of miles per year on them, but still...

Also, their cones were through hardened, not just surface hardened. I've never had to replace any on my 5 sets yet. Also, the races are replaceable, if you can find a set. I'll agree that sealed bearing would be easier however.
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Old 09-22-15, 09:51 AM
  #50  
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If they roll, I am happy. I have several sets of LF and HF Record HF Tip, couple 501's, couple of Superbe Pro's hubs that are all just great!

Mavics are not easily found and skewers even harder. I do like the therapy of repacking ball and cone!

Price was way out of line for me. I had trouble paying more than $50 each for 500's. In the last year, everything of quality has gone up regardless of the demand. It often leaves the impression that it isn't so much supply and demand as high asking prices that creep up as a result of people willing to drop the extra dollar, this time.
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