Will fastest times on Strava segments be obsolete due to e-bikes?
#1
Grupetto Bob
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,177
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2560 Post(s)
Liked 5,591 Times
in
2,901 Posts
Will fastest times on Strava segments be obsolete due to e-bikes?
Many could care less about Strava or chasing fastest segment times, and I get that. For those that do, will e-bikes render fastest times a thing of the past since the playing field is now far from level? This was briefly bought up in the General Forum and maybe the point is already mute.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
#2
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,941
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6168 Post(s)
Liked 4,784 Times
in
3,302 Posts
Why? Isn't this for the fastest times? Many are people in cars driving home after putting their bike on the rack after a ride and forgetting to stop the timer of their Garmin or other device.
I guess the issue for me is more should Strava, RWGPS and others have a way to separate if a e-bike or human powered only bike was used for a segment. Though that'd take a lot of trust that the user is reporting correctly. And I'm not certain which side of that issue I wish to be on.
My segments and KOM's are just PR's against myself for me alone. Although I do hold some ties for some small climbs around here.
So far, I'm not aware that any e-bike has passed me unless I'm doing very leisurely rides... which is seldom. And I've passed quite a few as most of the e-biker's here just seem to be out for that leisurely ride.
I guess the issue for me is more should Strava, RWGPS and others have a way to separate if a e-bike or human powered only bike was used for a segment. Though that'd take a lot of trust that the user is reporting correctly. And I'm not certain which side of that issue I wish to be on.
My segments and KOM's are just PR's against myself for me alone. Although I do hold some ties for some small climbs around here.
So far, I'm not aware that any e-bike has passed me unless I'm doing very leisurely rides... which is seldom. And I've passed quite a few as most of the e-biker's here just seem to be out for that leisurely ride.
Last edited by Iride01; 09-08-22 at 03:08 PM.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Australia
Posts: 821
Bikes: 2002 Trek 5200 (US POSTAL), 2020 Canyon Aeroad SL
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 313 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times
in
327 Posts
No I don't think it'll be an issue. Technically, eBike riders should mark their rides as "Electric Bike" on Strava anyway. It's a whole other category with it's own segments separate from "regular" bikes.
On the road at least (and here where eBikes are limited to 25kph/15mph) most top 10 times are not challenged by eBikes.
On the road at least (and here where eBikes are limited to 25kph/15mph) most top 10 times are not challenged by eBikes.
Likes For tempocyclist:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,839
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6934 Post(s)
Liked 10,936 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Many could care less about Strava or chasing fastest segment times, and I get that. For those that do, will e-bikes render fastest times a thing of the past since the playing field is now far from level? This was briefly bought up in the General Forum and maybe the point is already mute.
Anyway, yeah, I get your question. During Covid, I started chasing KOMs as a way to push myself when races were cancelled. eBikes kind of mess that up, and I'll bet that some of those riders do not indicate (on Strava) that they were on eBikes.
I'm reminded of a ride/race I did a few years ago -- a big hill climbing event in Pittsburgh. It's kind of a local thing, so most of the info is transmitted through a fb page. A couple weeks prior to the event, some guy posted a question about whether he could ride it on an eBike. The organizers responded that no, it is an event for regular old bikes, for riders to test themselves against some very steep climbs. This guy persisted, and was really quite pushy about it. I mean, wtf? For all but a handful of elite riders, the event is about merely climbing hills with grades up to 37% -- you get a Finisher's ribbon just for making it up all of them without putting down a foot. And this doofus wants to sail up on an eBike.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
This guy persisted, and was really quite pushy about it. I mean, wtf? For all but a handful of elite riders, the event is about merely climbing hills with grades up to 37% -- you get a Finisher's ribbon just for making it up all of them without putting down a foot. And this doofus wants to sail up on an eBike.
Anyway, I think over time eBike efforts will take a lot of segments over. You can make private seggies to compete against yourself, or obscure ones that don't get tons of traffic, and hope for the best.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
I'm not saying it's ok, I'm saying this must happen a lot.
#7
LR÷P=HR
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,161
Bikes: 1981 Holdsworth Special, 1993 C-dale MT3000 & 1996 F700CAD3, 2018 Cervelo R3 & 2022 R5, JustGo Runt, Ridley Oval, Kickr Bike 8-)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 862 Post(s)
Liked 1,195 Times
in
687 Posts
Soon you’ll be able to tell mechanical bikes electronically!
They will all have Di2
🙂
Barry
They will all have Di2
🙂
Barry
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,349
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,941 Times
in
1,904 Posts
Some eBike people have a chip on their shoulder about being left out. I know a really great person who insists eBikes should be allowed anywhere acoustic bikes are allowed. A hiker who values Wilderness, but doesn't appreciate the irony of wanting motorized bikes in non motorized areas.
Anyway, I think over time eBike efforts will take a lot of segments over. You can make private seggies to compete against yourself, or obscure ones that don't get tons of traffic, and hope for the best.
Anyway, I think over time eBike efforts will take a lot of segments over. You can make private seggies to compete against yourself, or obscure ones that don't get tons of traffic, and hope for the best.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,947
Bikes: Trek 1100 road bike, Roadmaster gravel/commuter/beater mountain bike
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2281 Post(s)
Liked 1,710 Times
in
936 Posts
I really don't care about Strava KOM's or fastest segments. I mainly use Strava to keep track of my mileage and my own personal average speed.
Likes For Milton Keynes:
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,692
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 815 Post(s)
Liked 1,645 Times
in
775 Posts
You can sometimes tell if a segment leader did it on an e-bike. I don't use Strava, but Garmin segments will show a leaderboard. When you see riders #2 through #10 all within a few seconds, and the leader has the lead by a large margin, you just assume it was an assisted ride.
I had held the lead in a Garmin segment (sprint) by a few tenths of a second for a few weeks. The difference between my time and the time of the 10th fastest rider was about 2 seconds. When I re-checked it, I had been de-throned by someone much faster. Like, 10 seconds faster. I didn't recognize the name from any of the pro teams, so I just assumed it was done on an e-bike. I don't even bother with segments anymore, except to challenge myself now and then.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,346
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked 947 Times
in
554 Posts
A lot of people used a Garmin or some other device and have their data synced to Strava, vs inputting it directly. So if they don't see the value in distinguishing between bike and eBike when they set it up, it just gets tagged automatically. A lot of people aren't very tech literate, or detail oriented, to fix it or change how their rides are listed.
I'm not saying it's ok, I'm saying this must happen a lot.
I'm not saying it's ok, I'm saying this must happen a lot.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,383 Times
in
708 Posts
here's a very popular local example. the left one is the regular bike version, the right is the e-bike version.
Likes For mschwett:
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,947
Bikes: Trek 1100 road bike, Roadmaster gravel/commuter/beater mountain bike
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2281 Post(s)
Liked 1,710 Times
in
936 Posts
Good for you. You have managed to contribute nothing to the topic at hand.
You can sometimes tell if a segment leader did it on an e-bike. I don't use Strava, but Garmin segments will show a leaderboard. When you see riders #2 through #10 all within a few seconds, and the leader has the lead by a large margin, you just assume it was an assisted ride.
I had held the lead in a Garmin segment (sprint) by a few tenths of a second for a few weeks. The difference between my time and the time of the 10th fastest rider was about 2 seconds. When I re-checked it, I had been de-throned by someone much faster. Like, 10 seconds faster. I didn't recognize the name from any of the pro teams, so I just assumed it was done on an e-bike. I don't even bother with segments anymore, except to challenge myself now and then.
You can sometimes tell if a segment leader did it on an e-bike. I don't use Strava, but Garmin segments will show a leaderboard. When you see riders #2 through #10 all within a few seconds, and the leader has the lead by a large margin, you just assume it was an assisted ride.
I had held the lead in a Garmin segment (sprint) by a few tenths of a second for a few weeks. The difference between my time and the time of the 10th fastest rider was about 2 seconds. When I re-checked it, I had been de-throned by someone much faster. Like, 10 seconds faster. I didn't recognize the name from any of the pro teams, so I just assumed it was done on an e-bike. I don't even bother with segments anymore, except to challenge myself now and then.
Likes For Milton Keynes:
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,509
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20799 Post(s)
Liked 9,447 Times
in
4,666 Posts
As others have mentioned, ebikes should be properly categorized. If someone is poaching segments on an ebike, you can often tell when looking at the segment analysis - the speed curves look unnatural - and flag the ride.
Likes For WhyFi:
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,383 Times
in
708 Posts
strava actually asked me once or twice whether a ride was on an e-bike (they were), so i think they are using some of the above algorithmic means as well.
Likes For mschwett:
#17
Thread derailleur
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 621
Bikes: Merlin Extralight '94 & Cannondale Supersix '15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times
in
256 Posts
yep, pretty easy to tell from the amount (or lack of) of deceleration up a hill, heart rate and/or power data, the speed capping at 20 or 28, etc etc.
strava actually asked me once or twice whether a ride was on an e-bike (they were), so i think they are using some of the above algorithmic means as well.
strava actually asked me once or twice whether a ride was on an e-bike (they were), so i think they are using some of the above algorithmic means as well.
Seems like a tall order to root out all electric-assist leaderboard riders. Not all e-bikes comprise those gigantic sixty-pound behemoths.
It's a worthy goal to maintain clean and proper segments. Riders can easily spend a few minutes here and there to flag cheaters or mistakes.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,509
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20799 Post(s)
Liked 9,447 Times
in
4,666 Posts
I am unfamiliar with anybody from Strava approaching its users. I thought they depend on their users to point out (flag) violators.
Seems like a tall order to root out all electric-assist leaderboard riders. Not all e-bikes comprise those gigantic sixty-pound behemoths.
It's a worthy goal to maintain clean and proper segments. Riders can easily spend a few minutes here and there to flag cheaters or mistakes.
Seems like a tall order to root out all electric-assist leaderboard riders. Not all e-bikes comprise those gigantic sixty-pound behemoths.
It's a worthy goal to maintain clean and proper segments. Riders can easily spend a few minutes here and there to flag cheaters or mistakes.
Likes For WhyFi:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,383 Times
in
708 Posts
I am unfamiliar with anybody from Strava approaching its users. I thought they depend on their users to point out (flag) violators.
Seems like a tall order to root out all electric-assist leaderboard riders. Not all e-bikes comprise those gigantic sixty-pound behemoths.
It's a worthy goal to maintain clean and proper segments. Riders can easily spend a few minutes here and there to flag cheaters or mistakes.
Seems like a tall order to root out all electric-assist leaderboard riders. Not all e-bikes comprise those gigantic sixty-pound behemoths.
It's a worthy goal to maintain clean and proper segments. Riders can easily spend a few minutes here and there to flag cheaters or mistakes.
i record the rides on my creo as regular bike if the motor was turned off for the entire ride, but i don’t recall strava ever inquiring about those - i must be so obviously slow the algorithm would never think i have any help 😂😂
Likes For mschwett:
#20
Thread derailleur
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 621
Bikes: Merlin Extralight '94 & Cannondale Supersix '15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times
in
256 Posts
Strava definitely has algorithms in place and will auto-flag activities (I mistakenly marked a ride as a run and it set off alarms), but it's a pretty crude tool. Still, KOM holders will get notified when they lose the KOM and there's certainly incentive to scrutinize the effort by the dethroned.
Still, I'm proud of some of my rankings in the top ten, twenty, or thirty on some very tough segments.
When a rider pushed themselves to the point of exhaustion to achieve that time, it's worth occasionally monitoring the leaderboard.
I do this by 'starring' a number of segments and combing through these periodically.
#21
Thread derailleur
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Glendora, CA
Posts: 621
Bikes: Merlin Extralight '94 & Cannondale Supersix '15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times
in
256 Posts
if i recall, it was just an automated popup upon uploading a GPX or FIT file for an activity. i selected “bike” and it said “this looks like an ebike ride” or something along those lines.
i record the rides on my creo as regular bike if the motor was turned off for the entire ride, but i don’t recall strava ever inquiring about those - i must be so obviously slow the algorithm would never think i have any help 😂😂
i record the rides on my creo as regular bike if the motor was turned off for the entire ride, but i don’t recall strava ever inquiring about those - i must be so obviously slow the algorithm would never think i have any help 😂😂
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 522
Bikes: Downtube IX NS&FS, Dahon Speed8Pro/Matrix/Curve, Brom S2L,Montague Para, ICE-XL w/Rollie/Schlumpf, Trident Spike, ebikes, BFSatRDay
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times
in
81 Posts
I am as competitive a biker as Peewee Herman.
The Strava numbers are being used here to support the banning of ebikes on the MUP's.
There is a pushback on bikes as well, since speed limits are unenforced (unenforceable).
And bikers frighten and annoy walkers and joggers , worse as speeds increase.
Speeds of 25 mph and up on segments are used as supporting evidence
and I have seen MUP speeds in the 40's (mph not KM/hr)
The Strava numbers are being used here to support the banning of ebikes on the MUP's.
There is a pushback on bikes as well, since speed limits are unenforced (unenforceable).
And bikers frighten and annoy walkers and joggers , worse as speeds increase.
Speeds of 25 mph and up on segments are used as supporting evidence
and I have seen MUP speeds in the 40's (mph not KM/hr)
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,509
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20799 Post(s)
Liked 9,447 Times
in
4,666 Posts
The Strava numbers are being used here to support the banning of ebikes on the MUP's.
There is a pushback on bikes as well, since speed limits are unenforced (unenforceable).
And bikers frighten and annoy walkers and joggers , worse as speeds increase.
Speeds of 25 mph and up on segments are used as supporting evidence
and I have seen MUP speeds in the 40's (mph not KM/hr)
There is a pushback on bikes as well, since speed limits are unenforced (unenforceable).
And bikers frighten and annoy walkers and joggers , worse as speeds increase.
Speeds of 25 mph and up on segments are used as supporting evidence
and I have seen MUP speeds in the 40's (mph not KM/hr)
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 522
Bikes: Downtube IX NS&FS, Dahon Speed8Pro/Matrix/Curve, Brom S2L,Montague Para, ICE-XL w/Rollie/Schlumpf, Trident Spike, ebikes, BFSatRDay
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 172 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times
in
81 Posts
Sorry for the ambiguity.
As MUP infra structure is being built out in TX cities and elsewhere,
they are having to confront the differing velocities of the users, that are a problem as on bigger roads.
The unsegregated Strava data generated by ebikes is being used, like the higher speeds by analog bikes, in many ways,
not all of them favorable.
The infrastructure and vehicles need to be recognized as components of the same system, integrally linked.
As MUP infra structure is being built out in TX cities and elsewhere,
they are having to confront the differing velocities of the users, that are a problem as on bigger roads.
The unsegregated Strava data generated by ebikes is being used, like the higher speeds by analog bikes, in many ways,
not all of them favorable.
The infrastructure and vehicles need to be recognized as components of the same system, integrally linked.
#25
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,686 Times
in
2,509 Posts
Some of the more popular segments around here seem to have unrealistic times. The ones that really seem wrong are sprint segments on zwift. Can't ebike your way onto the leaderboard there though. Well, I guess you could with a wheel-on trainer