gauvins

I am starting to think about the possibility of touring in relatively cold weather. Nothing extreme but below freezing at night, around freezing during the day with the risk of exceptionally cold temperatures. I am looking at inputs to better prepare, having essentially zero experience in winter camping and typically not commuting when there's snow on the ground.

1. The first obvious set of questions pertains to clothing. In particular, WRT mid layers (ex: down vs primaloft; vest vs jacket; how much insulation is enough; how often should I decompress the mid layer -- it could be weeks before I need the additional warmth). I have a Patagonia Nano Puff vest, which might well be enough, especially if I add arm warmers. Then again there are amazing alternatives (1000 down fill vests/jackets) that may be a significant improvement.
2. I assume that there's a major difference between spending the night inside vs camping in the cold. I dread (perhaps too strong a word) the idea of setting up camp in sub-freezing temperature after a long day in the saddle. Perhaps not a big deal? or a definite major difference?
3. I have to replace my sleeping bag. I'll definitely get a quilt. The question is what temperature rating to get. MEC gear checklist suggests 5C less than expected lowest temperature, which seems excessive to me (this past summer I slept in a bag rated 10C *above* the lowest temperature I've experienced, and was reasonably comfortable using a warm liner and wearing some clothes. I read that some winter campers sleep fully clothed, including their parka. How many degrees do we gain that way?

I'll try out various kits this fall/winter and read any opinion/advice with interest.

Steve B.

In a nutshell, this is a problem "I dread (perhaps too strong a word) the idea of setting up camp in sub-freezing temperature after a long day in the saddle. Perhaps not a big deal? or a definite major difference?".

You will be doing this every day. Recall as well that in winter its dark in the NA - Northern US area at around 4:30-5 depending on time of year. So less mileage a result of less daylight, unless you ride at night and then you are setting up camp and cooking in the dark as its getting cold. You will then want an abundance of warm clothing. You will also want a mummy bag rated at a colder temp then you expect, though to some extent you can extend the temp range by wearing all your cold weather clothing. Not seeing a quilt working for you.

gauvins

I don't remember the last time I've zipped my bag... and don't understand the logic of wanting to sleep on compressed down (i.e. w/o effective insulation). Am I missing something?

PedalingWalrus

1. I 'toured' during full winter conditions. I have to say that midweight wool longjohns and top or Woolpower onesie are just enough of layers for me when riding. Top it off with Goretex bibs and a jacket and I am all set for layers on the body. I carry 3 pairs of gloves as you never know when You reall NEED a dry, warm pair when you're out there. You certainly need a pair for sleeping and perhaps a pair for riding. I use bar mitts/pogies so sometimes there is no need for gloves. it is wind resistance that matters more I think. There were times when I used to wear a ski helmet (we are talking in sub zero F weather) but for the past few years I am good with regular helmet and a balaclava. I would recommend ski goggles for when it really catches you during a ride and it is blowing chunks.

Winter riding basically means you ride until you can't. It's cold in the tent so you will be spending warm time in the sleeping bag (quilt won't do IMHO). You ride until it is time to find camp and then it's a quick succession of coordinated steps :-) Pitch your shelter first, cook next, boil water for nalgene and stick it into your sleeping bag. Undress quickly everything and slip into wool underwear, dry balaclava or a dry hat and jump into your sleeping bag that was warmed up by the bottle. Eat, perhaps cook some more (hot chocolate) and sleep.

I carry foam mattress and inflatable. Put your damp clothes between the two. Your body heat will warm up the inflatable mattress and help somewhat (no miracles) to dry your riding clothes and keep them relatively warm for the next morning (that includes your socks). I put my shoes in a bag to use as a pillow. That also keeps them from freezing somewhat.

In the morning it is about boiling water for breakfast or eating food that works against freezing (crackers etc...) - so my next recommendation would be to have a tent that works well for cooking while in the sleeping bag (and not dying from oxygen deprivation or setting the tent on fire)

The challenge in winter is about continuous management of condensation that could freeze so getting a sleeping bag that is very well insulated from getting damp from body perspiration is as important as getting one that won't let any draft in (hence my objection to a quilt)

Double wall tent is warmer. Tent less mesh netting is better as you want to eliminate cold wind making your sleeping quarters cold. If I am really sure

Stopping every few days in a warm place where you can dry your stuff may just be essential.

Winter means different things to people. People in southern US states talk about cycling in the winter, people in England talk about cycling in the winter and so do people in Finland or Maine or Alaska - winter is not the same thing in each of these localities.

HelpSingularity 

Dang, dude, that is HARD CORE. I have putzed around in freezing weather and spent A night in a tent in snow and then scurried off to shelter to dry out and warm up. But this is a whole other level. Thanks for the info. Great image.

Steve B.

In a mummy, when you roll on your aide, you still have insulation. Easier to roll out of a quilt. Possibly you haven't slept with a bag zipped up because it wasn't particularly cold ?. I think quilts make perfect sense in temps above 60 or so, not sold on them in the 30-40-50's.

Yan 

I've done a ton of snow camping. It's for stopping the draft.

indyfabz

+1.

Plus, my Sea to Summit mattress is insulated. I also wear a light base layer bottom to bed if it's going to be chilly/cold. Also helpful a a bug deterrent around camp, like when I am reading by a fire. Same for the wool cap.

Tourist in MSN

There was a thread a ways back on cold weather cycling, but not for touring. Mainly clothing. Not really cold, roughly the temps you are talking about.
https://www.bikeforums.net/long-dist...ther-gear.html

mev

About as cold as I've toured is ~-7C overnight (20F) and ~4-5C in the early mornings. This was in Peru and Bolivia and there was a good day/night swing with cold temperatures overnight warming to above freezing during the day.

Growing up with Boy Scouts we would camp roughly once a month and in the winters it got as cold as -12C. Each winter there was a "frost point award" where one frost point was awarded for each degree Fahrenheit of freezing. There was an award for 100 points in a winter and most winters I earned one. From the winter camp outs, I learned importance of layers and also of keeping dry - since if you got something wet then it could quickly become rather cold. As a not thinking adolescent, I once let my snow boots get wet and put my feet in them the next morning when it was -10C. Ended up with a nasty case of frost-bite on my feet . Otherwise, there is an overlap between what you wear for cross-country skiing and bicycling and when you are generating heat - you want to be able to take off some layers - that you can then put back on. Similarly when camping overnight (1) watch for condensation and (2) have enough of an insulating layer underneath and (3) get a sleeping bag with reasonable ratings.

I also spent eight winters in Fort Collins Colorado without owning a car and commuted to work (5m/8km) through each winter. That wasn't as difficult because once I got to work, I would get a warm shower. I did switch to using studded tires after one or two cases where my front tire (and then myself) quickly skidded on some frozen ice. After that, I outfitted one bike to be my studded snow tire bike and rode it if there was ice.

I also found that roughly every 20F/10C would require a new regime of clothing or otherwise to keep warm:
-- below about 50F (10C), I liked having at least light gloves
-- below about 32F (0C), it was too cold for shorts, and I looked for more full finger mittens
-- below about 14F (-10C), I worried a lot more about extremities such as feet and started adding more layers above and thought about thermals below
-- below about -4F (-20C), I was bundled up quite a bit
I didn't have too much difficulty but if one got both wet and cold, then I had to worry about my drive train freezing up and becoming a single speed instead...

andrewclaus

Leading edges and extremities are more difficult to dress than the core. Gloves, socks and booties, and face mask become very important. You're not moving your toes much and they're very exposed.

As mentioned above, ventilation of perspiration and respiration is critical, and this is where the core is critical. It's very easy to soak your core insulation if overdressed while climbing. A nice down garment can become worthless.

I agree completely with others that a down bag excels in winter, especially if you tend to move around. Get a bag that does not have side baffles so you can shift down to the top or bottom depending on conditions. You'll want some extra insulation in your sleeping pad. I use two in winter.

Most of the time clothing in the sleeping bag doesn't work for me. I get too constricted and end up getting colder. I'm usually most comfortable and warm with a light base layer.

Learning how to keep drinking water and wet clothing from freezing is important. I double-bag my water and sleep with it, and put wet clothing under my sleeping pad. If my shoes get wet I put them in a bag under my knees. If you use a filter, keep it from freezing.

If you need to camp on snowpack, learn how to anchor your shelter as needed--snow stakes or deadmen and cord.

The only way to get comfortable with winter riding and camping is to ride and camp in winter. Count on making mistakes. Allow for that with some shakedown cruises close to home, and don't commit to a foreign expedition until your gear and methods are dialed in.

stardognine

Definitely consider camping in cold weather, close to home, to get a good feel for your body's needs. Then you can figure out what's comfortable. 😉

The most important winter gear, IMHO, is a good raincoat, that's well ventilated, especially having pit-zips. You need to stay dry, obviously, and ventilation is a huge part of that. And a decent raincoat will also be windproof, which is huge if you get caught in a blizzard. 😲

KPREN

This tread brings back the memories from years gone by. There is something very serine about winter camping. Snow dampens sound and its very quiet.
A few things I learned. Wool is your friend, down in not. Always plan on sleeping with a good pair of wool socks on. Wear a hat to bed. One problem that people overlook is sitting down. Sitting down in the snow is a recipe for getting wet. Carry something that can be spread and offers a dry place to sit down that will not absorb water. Having a free-standing tent with a large vestibule is great. Especially if the bike will fit in it. Fires are difficult to start, don't plan on it. Protect your water from freezing. Eating snow reduces core temperature fast. Don't drink alcohol. Stoves in tents create a hell of a lot of moisture that creates problems. Dry your stuff out daily, a laundromat is a good place for lunch.
Above all, one of the best accessories that I have found is having the right dry dog to sleep in a pile with.

Tourist in MSN

What is your plan? Is this for the few days or maybe few weeks associated with crossing a high elevation pass? Or are you talking months of sleeping in sub freezing temps?

If you do your round the world tour and only are in sub freezing temps for a few weeks, I would suggest you get an extra layer for a warmer weather sleeping bag to get you through a couple extra weeks of cold. Same with clothing, a few more layers would be appropriate. But if you are thinking of being in sub freezing temps for over a month, you really want all your clothing and sleeping bag to be geared for that.

If you were using a warmer weather bag, you can put your light weight down jacket on top of or inside your sleeping bag for that extra warmth. If you are using an air mattress, you would want an extra layer of foam under you to help insulate yourself from the cold ground in addition to the air mattress.

If you are sleeping on snow, your body heat will not raise the snow temp that is below you any warmer than 0 C, so the ground under you is a heat sink. I recall decades ago on a snow shoeing trip where we slept under a tarp, in the morning when we were packing up, when we peeled our ground cloths off the snow you could tell who had the best insulation based on who sunk deeper into the snow (melted more snow). We used space blankets for our ground sheets, we were not in a tent so did not have a tent floor below us.

Much of my bike touring is with a 20 degree rated bag that is comfortable anywhere from slightly below freezing up to the 50s, and is comfortable in warmer nights with a liner inside it and the bag zipped more open. You said quilt, if you really want to go that way go ahead but I really think that is not the best idea. My 20 degree bag is extraordinarily light and is down. One way they made it so light is that it fits quite tight around your body, minimal excess air space inside the bag. Roomier bags are more comfortable and let you move around more, but they have to have more nylon and more down, thus weigh more and have more packed bulk. It is a trade off in design, a roomier bag is heavier and more bulky. My 20 degree bag has not been made for over a decade, was called the REI Sub-Kilo, as the bag weighed less than a kg.

But if I planned to tour for well over a month where it was below freezing at night, every night, I would bring my Marmot Never Summer bag. That model has been in production but with many changes for several years. It is quite bulky when packed, but I would not be shivering every morning when using that bag. It is more roomy, you can bring more clothing inside the bag if you want to. I am guessing it has twice the weight and twice the bulk of my Sub-Kilo.

You have to be obsessive about keeping your down gear dry. And your sleeping bag will absorb moisture as you sleep. Your body is giving off moisture, and that moisture is evaporated and the moist air moves into the sleeping bag insulation, some of that moisture condenses out and becomes ice particles in your sleeping bag insulation. Decades ago when Steger and Schurke (and two others) took their dog sled teams to the North Pole, they were sleeping in their sleeping bags every night for a few months. They brought Polarguard bags, and some of their bags weighed 40 pounds (estimated) later when they had absorbed all that moisture for months. The point I am making here is how long would you be camped in such conditions, and will you have a chance to try to evaporate some of that moisture out of your bag? You said that you anticipate above freezing daytime temperatures, will that give you a chance to dry things out? Decades ago I think the longest I was in sub freezing temperatures continuously was a week long snow shoe trip, I think my sleeping bag absorbed at least a half pound of water, as after the trip when I unpacked my bag indoors, it was quite wet from accumulated moisture. If you are going to be in sub-freezing temps for more than a few weeks, strongly consider bringing a vapor barrier liner to keep your body moisture from getting into your sleeping bag insulation, I have no clue why Steger and Schurke did not bring them.

If this is winter, it is long nights, you are using your artificial light source a lot more often than if this is high elevation summer. I have no clue what the latest theory on electrics is and what batteries are best in cold weather. My winter camping was mostly decades ago before Li Ion or NiMH batteries existed. But I can tell you that if I use my phone with a cold Li Ion battery in it, that battery charge level plummets amazingly fast. I use AA and AAA NiMH batteries for almost everything other than my phone when camping, but I have not used them more than a few hours of sub freezing temps, as most of my camping is warmer than sub-freezing, so I quite frankly am ignorant of what you might need for batteries during cold nights. But if you are some remote place in between Europe and Asia, you probably only have what you brought and you probably only brought rechargeables. I assume you would bring your Forumslader and dynohub. If I recall the Forumslader has a Li Ion pass through battery. Such batteries should not be charged in sub-freezing temps.

People write books on winter camping.

staehpj1

How cold of an overnight low will you need to safely make it through? That is one question you need to be sure to answer when choosing gear.

Personally I figure road touring in real winter weather doesn't sound like much fun. I did some where there were lots of nights with frost and some cold nights (the lowest were in the teens F). That was fine, but it really wasn't real winter touring. I think it got to at least 50 F every day and none of the riding was in really cold weather despite some cold nights. I actually found it more comfortable than riding in the heat of summer. Ithe the several weeks of the trip I probably rode only a couple hours where it was below freezing if even that. The gear was pretty much what I take for regular three season touring.

I always figured that for real winter camping I'd rather snowshoe, XC ski, or lacking snow hike. These days since the advent of fat bikes the notion of off road trail touring on a fat bike sounds interesting. I doubt I'll ever pursue that though.

PedalingWalrus

Yeah. I would tour in the winter but only on dedicated bike trails. Riding your bike in traffic in the winter is a terrible experience not to mention it ruins your nice bicycle.

Thulsadoom

If you are actually wondering how much of a difference there is between spending the night inside and camping outside in freezing weather, I would highly recommend rethinking your motivation for doing this. A few cold (clod?) weather over-nighters should be in order first.

mev

I found that there are definitely differences between parts of the country as far as winter riding goes. For example, if you compare the January temperatures between Boston and Denver:
https://weatherspark.com/compare/m/1...ver-in-January

The average low temperatures are not that different. However, the average high temperature is considerably higher in Colorado than Massachusetts. This has some practical differences:
-- When I lived in New England, it seemed like it would more often snow and then the snow would stick around, becoming a dirty mess. This combined with sometimes narrower roads and a tendency for snow to start as rain and then become a bit of slush - as well as occasional towns that treated their roads - made it more of a mess.
- Living in Colorado, while snow could stay for several weeks, it was often more common that it might snow and then within a week that snow would have melted off. It also seemed less common to start as rain for long and more often to be more of a lighter snow. The net effect was every once in a while there would be little ice patches for a while but much less of the grey snow mess in urban areas of New England.

As a result, I would agree with your statement for New England and disagree with your statement for Colorado.

gauvins

Well, the question was deliberately vague (and with inadvertent typo)... because as Tourist in MSN indicates, things are different if we are talking about an uninterrupted RTW including a long frigid segment, vs a brief, but cold, weather window while crossing a mountain range.

At this point in time, my question is (was) motivated by a tentative plan to visit the Ladakh region (Himalaya) and possible ride up the Umling La pass (5 500M), most probably sometime between June and late September (2024+). Temperatures in the valleys pose no problem but based on what I think is the weather at Umling La, today's temperatures are -2/11C (30/52F) dropping rapidly. Next Monday the forecast is for -6/7C (21/45F). I anticipate that late September would be 5C (10F) lower and it is prudent to consider variance (say, 3C) and want to start thinking about this. Lots of unknown: it looks like there is an "oxygen cafe" on top -- is it reasonable/possible to plan spending the night there?; the vast majority of visitors ride motorbikes -- how much time would be needed to ride to the next village on a bicycle, which is highly dependent of the quality of the road surface, difficult to assess/predict; etc.

So, my objective is to come up with a list of clothes/accessories that I'll carry with me, and then a list of things that can be purchased/discarded while there. And I plan to take advantage of the coming winter to try this stuff. (i.e. riding/sleeping in progressively colder temperatures)

I've also read technical material. Fascinating but since few if any manufacturer publish the clo value of their garments, isn't that useful. I might add that my son is in the forces, and I presume that the Canadian military know a thing or two about cold weather camping, but these guys aren't big on ultralight and often use surprisingly primitive gear... so I don't know what I'll learn...

This being said -- I follow this thread with interest and have learned a couple of useful things that I hadn't considered before (e.g. several pairs of gloves). On thing that I find surprising is the apparent consensus that a sleeping bag (I assume mummy) is a better option compared to a quilt -- which is reflected in many reviews found on the www as well. It just doesn't match my experience. My current bag in a Zpacks classic 30F (i.e. no hood -- I wear a beanie) that I use as a quilt, in conjunction with the "thermo reactor extreme" (chuckle) liner and very comfortably slept with temperatures down in mid 30s. We also have a Zpacks twin quilt 20F that would very probably live to its rating. I hear the draft argument, but don't understand it -- if you toss a lot and use a quilt as if it were a blanket, yeah, no surprise, but if you take the time (annoying, I know) to tie your quilt to a decent pad, how can there be any meaningful draft?

So, yes, I am considering a tour that may include serious mountain travel where the temperature might to drop to, say, -10C (14F) at night. How should I prepare?

Tourist in MSN

What is the longest period of time that you would need to be prepared for sub freezing temps? A week? A few weeks? Over a month? Longer?

Do they sell food there? Or are you carrying weeks of food on the bike too?

Tourist in MSN

I found that winter camping in February in Florida Keys and Everglades was much hotter than I like.

robow

I don't care for winter touring but the few times I did, I found that a heavy pair of wool socks and a wool stocking cap were indispensable for getting a decent night's sleep. And yea, I would error on the side of a bag rated lower than I was likely to encounter.
Riding days too short and too many hours stuck in my tent = yuck.

mev

A few thoughts:
1. This is a cold desert with less an 3" of rain a year. There is also a larger day/night swing in temperatures. This should make it easier to avoid getting wet - though layers during the day are still important. In particular, I would also look for a good wind shell to keep out a biting cold wind and extra care for feet/hands as well as a wool hat you may wear almost all the time.
2. It looks like there might be some guest houses in Hanle at 4300m, I would see about taking advantage of them or even asking locals for a homestay. There may not be enough other inside choices so this is a good one to prepare for the final push. Still 1500m below the summit, but also close to Photi La which would be a good shakedown that you have to go over before getting to Umling La.
3. There is a large day/night swing in temperatures. This area is ~35 degrees north so slightly longer days and shorter nights. Anticipate it warming up moderately quick after sunrise so expect to stay in the tent/sleeping bag until after sun is up and it starts to warm. Not exactly a cold issue but at higher elevations take precautions for sunburn as there is less shielding atmosphere.
4. For the cold overnights in Peru/Bolivia, I ended up with a light sleeping bag that I used around my normal mummy bag rated to -5C. That helped me extend the sleeping range to colder temperatures. My coldest night was camped outside a toll booth in Peru in photo below. It got to around -8C. My water bottles froze. One issue I had was it became windy overnight and my tent let some of that wind got underneath the fly. If I had chance to redo things I would look for a tent that did better in keeping out wind.

staehpj1

For me that means my regular stuff plus a bit of extra clothing. I use my clothing to supplement the sleeping bag either by wearing it or by laying it over me in the bag. My bag not rated for the temperatures I use it for, but it is a quality down bag and I have experience with it in the conditions I use it in and know what to expect.

Some warm dry thick socks really help for sleeping comfort for me. Also I make sure that I can maintain some level of comfort at expected low temperatures and survival at record lows with some room for error.

I don't hesitate to use all my clothing as sleeping insulation if needed.

That said my winter touring has been limited to the southern and southwestern US.

gauvins

Sub freezing nights, let's say 2 weeks. Sub freezing days, just a few days.
A few places serving food. I'd say a week of autonomy would do. Not clear wrt water. Plan might be to go ahead and fold if the circumstances prove untenable.