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250w mid drive vs the 750w hub drive for hill climb

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250w mid drive vs the 750w hub drive for hill climb

Old 03-27-23, 09:01 PM
  #51  
Mike_Kelly
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Who cares? You need a chain to use the bike either way. I don't care about silly scenarios where your chain breaks in the wilderness and you have to get back before a snow storm hits.
It is simple a middrive has the complete gear system to optimize efficiency. The hub drive is stuck with the one gear inside and has no benefit from the drive train gears. In that hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain.
If you want to drive your car around in first gear all the time you go for it.
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Old 03-28-23, 07:40 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
Who cares? You need a chain to use the bike either way. I don't care about silly scenarios where your chain breaks in the wilderness and you have to get back before a snow storm hits.
It is simple a middrive has the complete gear system to optimize efficiency. The hub drive is stuck with the one gear inside and has no benefit from the drive train gears. In that hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain.
If you want to drive your car around in first gear all the time you go for it.
Amen! The throttle jockeys and kids "driving" hubs have no idea what it's like to ride a bike. Hubs are fine for street or bike paths as long as there aren't hills involved (in that case they need a more humongous hub). I've built them and they're fine for their intended purpose, but not off road or hilly terrain.
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Old 03-28-23, 08:30 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
Who cares? You need a chain to use the bike either way. I don't care about silly scenarios where your chain breaks in the wilderness and you have to get back before a snow storm hits.
It is simple a middrive has the complete gear system to optimize efficiency. The hub drive is stuck with the one gear inside and has no benefit from the drive train gears. In that hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain.
If you want to drive your car around in first gear all the time you go for it.
From your post, doesn't seem that you understand the difference between "gears" in the hub motor vs freewheel gears outside the hub motor.
Majority of hub motor ebikes have rear wheel free that have at least 6 or 7 gears outside of the motor.
There are also internally geared hub motor, that allow more optimal operation of the motor within its designated parameters.

In the "wilderness", it seems that it is more important that your ebike's mobility is not dependent on the drivetrain, which is not limited to the chain,
but also include the bottom bracket, crankset, chainrings, rear cassette cogs, rear freehub body.
Any of those components fail can prohibit the operation of a mid-drive ebike and you will have to either fix it trailside or walk your ebike back to trailhead.

You claim that hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain, can you specify the inferiority?
Does majority of ebikes operate in "varying terrain" as you imagine?
It is inferior to spend hundred, if not thousands less for an ebike that can operate for majority type of cycling?

Originally Posted by 2old
Amen! The throttle jockeys and kids "driving" hubs have no idea what it's like to ride a bike. Hubs are fine for street or bike paths as long as there aren't hills involved (in that case they need a more humongous hub). I've built them and they're fine for their intended purpose, but not off road or hilly terrain.
The reality is that MOST ebike riders are going to be throttle jockeys and kids that have no idea what it's like to ride a bike and mojority of them are going to be for street or bike paths with minimal hills involved.
I've converted & owned more than a dozen of ebike conversions since 2013, mid-drive & hub drive.
And for majority of folks starting out on ebike, (or just want to get out & ride) hub motor ebikes are well capable, require less maintenance and cost hundreds if not thousands less.
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Old 03-28-23, 11:49 AM
  #54  
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Amen.....

Originally Posted by cat0020
And for majority of folks starting out on ebike, (or just want to get out & ride) hub motor ebikes are well capable, require less maintenance and cost hundreds if not thousands less.
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Old 03-28-23, 11:52 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
Who cares? You need a chain to use the bike either way.,.
What rubbish, I can ride my rear hub fine with no chain if I choose to...what are you on about?

Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
If you want to drive your car around in first gear all the time you go for it.
Sh1t analogy....
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Old 03-28-23, 02:39 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
From your post, doesn't seem that you understand the difference between "gears" in the hub motor vs freewheel gears outside the hub motor.
Majority of hub motor ebikes have rear wheel free that have at least 6 or 7 gears outside of the motor.
There are also internally geared hub motor, that allow more optimal operation of the motor within its designated parameters.

In the "wilderness", it seems that it is more important that your ebike's mobility is not dependent on the drivetrain, which is not limited to the chain,
but also include the bottom bracket, crankset, chainrings, rear cassette cogs, rear freehub body.
Any of those components fail can prohibit the operation of a mid-drive ebike and you will have to either fix it trailside or walk your ebike back to trailhead.

You claim that hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain, can you specify the inferiority?
Does majority of ebikes operate in "varying terrain" as you imagine?
It is inferior to spend hundred, if not thousands less for an ebike that can operate for majority type of cycling?



The reality is that MOST ebike riders are going to be throttle jockeys and kids that have no idea what it's like to ride a bike and mojority of them are going to be for street or bike paths with minimal hills involved.
I've converted & owned more than a dozen of ebike conversions since 2013, mid-drive & hub drive.
And for majority of folks starting out on ebike, (or just want to get out & ride) hub motor ebikes are well capable, require less maintenance and cost hundreds if not thousands less.
Sure. I never said hub drives were not suitable for some applications. Just stating the facts on the difference between hub drive and mid-drives for climbing hills.
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Old 03-28-23, 06:22 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
Sure. I never said hub drives were not suitable for some applications.
Just stating the facts on the difference between hub drive and mid-drives for climbing hills.
How many hills have you climbed on a hub motor ebikes vs mid drive ebikes to offer decent comparison?
Please provide some details as evidence to support your claimed "fact".

For hill climbing ability of hub motored ebike: refer to the video included in post #5 on page 1 of this thread; and that's with a $1399 hub motor ebike.
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Old 03-28-23, 07:26 PM
  #58  
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Physics is physics. You can abuse anything for a short while. Take a look at grins simulator. Pick a hill anywhere and try different motors. You might learn something.
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Old 03-28-23, 07:50 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Mike_Kelly
Physics is physics. You can abuse anything for a short while. Take a look at grins simulator. Pick a hill anywhere and try different motors. You might learn something.
No one said physics is not physics.
And you forget to include the physics of friction; such as extra friction on chain, derailleur pulley that the motor power need to over come before driving the rear wheel.

You claimed facts in your previous post and I asked you to provide the specifics.
Are you capable of providing evidence for your claims "facts" or not?

Last edited by cat0020; 03-29-23 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 03-29-23, 08:34 AM
  #60  
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Hey Mike, this is a great site with individuals sharing information instead of useless and inane arguments with those who don't know better. It's still excellent if you use the ignore function as needed.
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Old 03-29-23, 09:29 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 2old
Hey Mike, this is a great site with individuals sharing information instead of useless and inane arguments with those who don't know better. It's still excellent if you use the ignore function as needed.
When you make a claim with solid evidence, data & sources that support your claim,
yeah then you don't have to worry about people asking you questions to poke holes in your claim.

You claim that you know better,
but you can't offer the solid evidence of different mid drive vs hub motor ebikes that you have ridden,
what kind of riding you have done with each different type of ebikes,
actual data of your testing to provide decent comparison,
then your opinion is just invalid.

I currently have a ebike with Bafang Ultra mid-drive motor, a 350w mid-drive e-road bike and another half a dozen misc of hub motor ebikes in my stable.
I ride each ebike frequently and for majority of my cycling, I find that hub motor ebikes that cost hundreds, if not thousands less than mid-drive ebikes are just as capable in all types of terrain for majority of riders.
I ride my own pace, I'm not racing anyone on the trails, I'm don't participate in any ebike racing, no need to have 1000w power output from a mid-drive motor to stress the chain & drivetrain.
Isn't that what majority of riders do on their ebikes?

Here in NYC metro, where ebike delivery folks are in the thousands, mojority of their ebikes are cheap hub-motor ebikes that cost less than $1500.
They operate 24/7, in all weather, their income depend on their ebike being reliable, dependable to make their living.
Their ebikes or drivetrain in general get minimal maintenance, throttle operation is most if not all of the time and they log upwards of 60-70 miles per day, if not more.
If these ebike delivery folks have to spend money on regular chain/cassette/chainring for the amount of usage their ebikes get used, that would cut into their profits from their work.
If mid-drive ebikes are truly superior over hub-motor ebikes, why are the majority of ebike delivery folks not using them?

Ignore me all you want; seems to me ignoring is just what you do when you get caught making invalid claims that you can't provide supporting evidence.
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Old 03-29-23, 09:35 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Here in NYC metro, where ebike delivery folks are in the thousands, mojority of their ebikes are cheap hub-motor ebikes that cost less than $1500.
They operate 24/7, in all weather, their income depend on their ebike being reliable, dependable to make their living.
Their ebikes or drivetrain in general get minimal maintenance, throttle operation is most if not all of the time and they log upwards of 60-70 miles per day, if not more.
If these ebike delivery folks have to spend money on regular chain/cassette/chainring for the amount of usage their ebikes get used, that would cut into their profits from their work.
If mid-drive ebikes are truly superior over hub-motor ebikes, why are the majority of ebike delivery folks not using them?

Ignore me all you want; seems to me ignoring is just what you do when you get caught making invalid claims that you can't provide supporting evidence.
your argument is throttles are the only way to go then. throttle cost less to operate so must be better. Of course you have no evidence these bikes hold up for long periods of time either.
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Old 03-29-23, 09:45 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
your argument is throttles are the only way to go then. throttle cost less to operate so must be better.
Of course you have no evidence these bikes hold up for long periods of time either.
Please learn to read, I never said it's the ONLY way to go, I said they are well capable for majority of riders.
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Old 03-29-23, 09:58 AM
  #64  
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I read most people riding e bikes dont put much effort into peddling so of course a hub motor is fine. Hell most I see never even shift.
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Old 03-29-23, 10:25 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
I read most people riding e bikes dont put much effort into peddling so of course a hub motor is fine. Hell most I see never even shift.
I can conquer, I pedal plenty when I ride my ebikes, regardless mid or hub drive.
I don't agree when people claim blanket statement like "hub drives are inferior to mid drive for varying terrain" or those who claim to know better without providing their specific experience for comparison.
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Old 03-30-23, 10:54 AM
  #66  
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Out here in socal I see a lot of kids, seniors and individuals who don't pedal riding hubs (almost exclusively none pedal because over 15 - 20 mph their pedaling is all of the "ghost" variety anyway). All of the major bike manufacturers (Specialized, Trek, Pivot, Santa Cruz, Bulls, Haibike ........) manufacture only PAS mid-drives. Those are the only bikes that I see off road. It's up to the individual; do you want to ride or drive?

Last edited by 2old; 03-30-23 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 03-30-23, 11:21 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by 2old
Out here in socal I see a lot of kids, seniors and individuals who don't pedal riding hubs (almost exclusively none pedal because over 15 - 20 mph their pedaling is all of the "ghost" variety anyway). All of the major bike manufacturers (Specialized, Trek, Pivot, Santa Cruz, Bulls, Haibike ........) manufacture only PAS mid-drives. Those are the only bikes that I see off road. It's up to the individual; do you want to ride or drive?
Fact is: majority (sheer number) of ebikes that are manufactured and sold are hub drive over mid drive.
Hub drive ebikes suit the majority of people that are out there "riding" not "driving"; regardless how they use their motor output.

What's considered off-road? is hard-pack, rails to trail type considered off-road?

You talk about "inane arguments" in your previous post, but ask for the difference between "ride" vs "drive" on ebikes?
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Old 04-25-23, 04:24 PM
  #68  
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From the Specialized website "All full power motors provide 250w of nominal output. "Nominal" means the power output that the motor can maintain over a defined period of time in a standardized test. Depending on the specific motor type, a full power turbo bike will provide the rider with 400 to 560 watts of peak power. Torque, which is measured in newton meters (Nm), refers to the acceleration power and climbing performance the motor provides. A motor that provides more torque will make it easier for you to accelerate and climb steep inclines. Full power motors provide 50 to 90 Nm of torque at the lower cadences of 50 to 60 rpm for steady, natural acceleration and smooth climbing. As you pedal faster, the motor gradually provides less torque rather than dropping off sharply. The goal is to mimic the feel of riding without motor assist."

For hills the Nm rating for a drivetrain provides a better indication of how much pedal assistance can be provided. The heavier the bike and its wheels the more Nm one needs from the bike motor on inclines. My road e-bike that weighs only 27 lbs has a drivetrain that provides 320Wh and that is more than enough on any terrain and with any amount of headwind.

Hub drives are cheaper and so they keep the price of the bike down. It is what is used on all the low end bikes for that reason alone. Most people buy based on price and not because of individual components on the bike. I wanted a mid-drive to have a more natural pedal assist experience when riding and as a bonus it is far easier to deal with a flat tire while out riding.
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Old 04-25-23, 05:09 PM
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750w hub motor, 95 Nm torque, 960 Wh battery.. all under $1.9k.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/ride1...electric-bike/
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Old 04-25-23, 05:11 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Calsun
From the Specialized website "All full power motors provide 250w of nominal output. "Nominal" means the power output that the motor can maintain over a defined period of time in a standardized test. Depending on the specific motor type, a full power turbo bike will provide the rider with 400 to 560 watts of peak power. Torque, which is measured in newton meters (Nm), refers to the acceleration power and climbing performance the motor provides. A motor that provides more torque will make it easier for you to accelerate and climb steep inclines. Full power motors provide 50 to 90 Nm of torque at the lower cadences of 50 to 60 rpm for steady, natural acceleration and smooth climbing. As you pedal faster, the motor gradually provides less torque rather than dropping off sharply. The goal is to mimic the feel of riding without motor assist."

For hills the Nm rating for a drivetrain provides a better indication of how much pedal assistance can be provided. The heavier the bike and its wheels the more Nm one needs from the bike motor on inclines. My road e-bike that weighs only 27 lbs has a drivetrain that provides 320Wh and that is more than enough on any terrain and with any amount of headwind.

Hub drives are cheaper and so they keep the price of the bike down. It is what is used on all the low end bikes for that reason alone. Most people buy based on price and not because of individual components on the bike. I wanted a mid-drive to have a more natural pedal assist experience when riding and as a bonus it is far easier to deal with a flat tire while out riding.
Plus they have a throttle and they feel like a scooter so it's more thrilling.
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Old 04-25-23, 05:13 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
750w hub motor, 95 Nm torque, 960 Wh battery.. all under $1.9k.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/ride1...electric-bike/
https://youtu.be/a9FKT7xZtuE
thats a pretty high nm rating. who knows? bafang lies about what their motors can output.
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Old 04-25-23, 06:41 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
thats a pretty high nm rating. who knows? bafang lies about what their motors can output.
As if any ebike seller is honest about their battery range?
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Old 04-25-23, 08:20 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
As if any ebike seller is honest about their battery range?
bosch is they even have a calculator thats pretty accurate. Hell mt Nyon will caudate the range of a planned trip including the hills.
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Old 04-26-23, 05:01 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
bosch is they even have a calculator thats pretty accurate. Hell mt Nyon will caudate the range of a planned trip including the hills.
and how many times have you compared your results vs their calculator?
How much more does a Bosch motored ebike cost?
does majority of rider need that much info for their cycling?
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Old 04-26-23, 07:42 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by cat0020
and how many times have you compared your results vs their calculator?
How much more does a Bosch motored ebike cost?
does majority of rider need that much info for their cycling?
often and the bike gives you the range in real time. of course it costs more its not a throw away system.
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