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Sidewards slide on the saddle.

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Sidewards slide on the saddle.

Old 06-23-21, 01:50 AM
  #76  
willhub
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I've tried the turning the seat it didn't work at all just had my thigh hitting the saddle unfortunately

I don't want to disconnect the power meter it might not be important what my average is but to me I find the observations like much higher power output for the same perceived effort interesting. Now I have a left hand stages power meter, so I think if I'm putting out higher power for the same perceived effort it must be due to the left leg getting to the pedal, so I'm possibly not actually working harder it's just the left power meter will be getting the effect of higher power.

The biggest improvement in stability and ability to pedal smoothly is when I've moved the cleat 6mm further forward on the left shoe but not the right. (I find this part of great significance, it's literally been 1 year and this particular adjustment whilst hasn't fixed everything has made the single biggest change to how I sit on the bike and feel more stable)

This cleat offset has somehow done it, I'm not sure if the reason this does it but shims don't work as well is because of the pelvis.

I need to be stable to ride, with the imbalance I have recently been experiencing power is the least of my worries considering I couldn't actually maintain an effort , riding steadier had the same instability.

Even off the saddle going up a hill I felt more stable, the cleats literally don't even feel offset if someone set the shoes without telling me I'd think they were almost same setup. I feel like the left leg is actually doing work now and is connected to the pedal whilst before it was more like hovering.

Now the question is what really is the issue that cleat offset is helping and if I need to do it more or just leave it as it is and any aches and pains I just suck up for now until another bike fit on July 29th

Last edited by willhub; 06-23-21 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 06-24-21, 01:03 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
I measured my inseam, rammed a hard book up as much as I can and it came out at 81.8cm

Could my arm length and torso length be an issue effective my balance ?
Sorry, I was traveling when you wrote this. I go for snug when measuring. That being said, stop measuring and using formulae! You have an issue, and have used the "numbers." They are simply a starting point. Your saddle is obviously too high for your given flexibility. Drop the saddle. Use Steve Hogg's method of determining seat height. Stop messing around with numbers and angles. If you don't correct the issue, you will have much worse problems later. Trust me, I know. I had hip pain cause by the same issue that lasted for years. Only steroids allowed it to heal. I was lucky. My seat was too high, but fine according to various fit methods, but it caused the hip pain, and damage, as well as lower back pain. Getting the seat height right, for me, corrected the sideways slide as you call it, and prevented further injury. It had the side benefit of making me more efficient when pedaling.

You have a great fitter about 3 1/2 hours from you. There are not many I would recommend, but I do recommend James. Hey, even if he says my diagnosis is wrong, he will fix your problem. Guaranteed. https://www.bicyclerichmond.co.uk/bike-fit

Last edited by phughes; 06-24-21 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 06-25-21, 02:07 AM
  #78  
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I'm going to Matt Hallam on 29th July at Rapha shop. He seems reputable and highly recommend and says I'll have a better experience after the fit than with my previous one.

I'd have loved to go to See James but it would cost far too much literally almost double paying for a local fit. I don't drive so only way to get from Manchester to there would be train.

My saddle is too high for my left leg, I don't think it is for my right.

I was riding 73cm it's now at just under 72.5cm, prior to 2015 I was actually riding at 74cm!

My cleat is as far back on the shoe as it will go, the thing that is showing me there is some mismatch between legs is, if my cleats are at the same place and I'm wobbling all over can't keep straight and upper body drifting, and then I move the left cleat forward 6mm compared to the right and I find myself more stable, left leg now feels like it's actually pushing on the pedals.

I've also laid down and had my feet touch against a wall, I notice my left leg won't touch the wall, this was crude with no measurements, but it was a good cm but the looks of it behind.

I'm not saying I've got a leg length discrepancy, but something is causing the effect, it almost looks like my pelvis might be tilted giving the effect the right leg is longer.

After 12 months I do think the problems I'm experiencing are related somewhere to do with imbalance causing an effective discrepancy between the legs.

I imagine shimming should fix this as the cleat stagger isn't brilliant but clearly does help.

I need to correct the imbalance and I hope physio or bike fitter can help, but lowered the saddle any more for my right leg is definitely too low for that leg when it started to cause knee pain. Yes yes I agree the saddle is clearly too high for the left leg, there is an imbalance, a big one it seems and simply lowering the saddle isn't helping, doing that any further does put me in pain, almost like riding a child's tiny bike


I get the impression people think I'm ignoring them, I'm not I've lowered the saddle, I've spent so much time over 12 months trying to fix this, so much time stressing it's even pissing my other half off my faffing with the bike. The cleat change experiment has made the single biggest change in terms of stability whilst it's no where perfect it's clearly highlighted the issue. I want the problem sorted so I can go for a ride and after forget about it and go do other things, the amount of actually cycling time and problems hundreds of pounds wasted it's like a nightmare.


​​​​​​Also just to add, saddle height at 71.5, 72 and 72.5 with cleats the same did not stop the saddle sliding for me, just out me in pain and if I went up s hill at the lower end of those heights I was checking myself off the saddle with a press on the pedal.

Last edited by willhub; 06-25-21 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 06-25-21, 04:52 AM
  #79  
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Just searched the entire thread for the words "stand" and "stood" and found no instances of either. Standing while climbing can in some cases help alleviate the kind of discomfort you described as occurring with a lower saddle position.

Here's yet another technique for determining saddle height. I've never seen this mentioned anywhere, but it works for me.

With my bike installed on my trainer stand, I begin by raising the saddle to a too-high position where slow backpedaling results in my feet becoming unambiguously unweighted at the bottom of the stroke.

It's easy to tell when that happens, because each foot scoots forward quickly at the bottom until the pedal reaches a point where the foot weight is fully on the pedal again.

Then I lower the saddle drastically to a very low position where I feel the full weight of my foot on each pedal at the bottom while backpedaling.

Finally, I begin raising the saddle in small increments until I just begin to feel my feet unweighing at the bottom of the stroke. I then drop the saddle to the height that I've now determined is the maximum that allows full weight on the pedal at the bottom. Done.

By the way, if you have a leg length discrepancy or some other physical imbalance that results in one foot feeling unweighted and the other not at a given saddle height, you should adjust the saddle lower until both feet are fully weighted on the pedals at the bottom of the stroke.

Judging from how extended your leg and foot are at the bottom of the stroke in your first video above, after adjusting your saddle height per my method, it will feel absurdly low. But it's worth trying out. (For comparison, look at Chris Froome's low-seeming saddle height in videos. Low saddle height, high efficiency.)

Finally, on the topic of knee discomfort, I suspect that many people who ride with power meters try to achieve high power numbers with a lower-than-ideal cadence. It is inarguably easier for them to hit those numbers at lower cadences if they haven't practiced spinning efficiently, but they're not doing their knees any favors.

Once you've arrived at a good saddle height and have the rest of the contact points sorted out, train yourself to keep your cadence above 85 rpm (and preferably around 95 rpm or a bit above that), and you'll likely find that you can still put out your target power with no knee discomfort.

Last edited by Trakhak; 06-25-21 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 06-25-21, 10:06 AM
  #80  
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If my saddle is too high and I lower it so it's correct, it's then too low for my right leg and causes knee pain.

I've tried 5MM of shims under the left foot and for the first time I've done a ride where my left sit bone is in contact with the seat. I felt planted and the bike felt like a bike again.

But it's not 100% and I hope a bike fitter can see where this effective leg length is. It seems my pelvis may be tilted effectively lengthening the right leg so if the imbalance was removed I assume my saddle height would be a bit lower.
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Old 06-25-21, 11:44 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
I'm going to Matt Hallam on 29th July at Rapha shop. He seems reputable and highly recommend and says I'll have a better experience after the fit than with my previous one.

I'd have loved to go to See James but it would cost far too much literally almost double paying for a local fit. I don't drive so only way to get from Manchester to there would be train.

My saddle is too high for my left leg, I don't think it is for my right.

.
The saddle height is fine for your right and not your left, because you are dropping to your right to compensate for a too high saddle. You get knee pain initially when you lower it, because you are not used to it, yet. Take it easy for a while after lowering it, and allow your body to get used to it. Your body can tolerate a lower saddle more than a saddle that is too high.
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Old 06-25-21, 02:35 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
The saddle height is fine for your right and not your left, because you are dropping to your right to compensate for a too high saddle. You get knee pain initially when you lower it, because you are not used to it, yet. Take it easy for a while after lowering it, and allow your body to get used to it. Your body can tolerate a lower saddle more than a saddle that is too high.
If my saddle is at 72, Vs 74 prior, that's quite a difference, and when I had it at 74 I was doing 150 mile bike rides.

So by that 73 should be adequate and I'm already at 72.5

So something has changed to cause this leg lengths discrepancy which never used to evidently exist and shimming seems to be helping but it's not perfect.

I get that there is saddle too high and symptoms, but it seems I'm already at the lower end and given the above I'm struggling to understand saddle too high.

I need to know why the imbalance has happened and how to correct it somehow because simply lowering the saddle as I've mentioned still gives the symptoms of twisted and slipping off the saddle.

I'm not try to be stubborn it's just I've tried lowering the saddle.
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Old 07-16-21, 07:09 AM
  #83  
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Your saddle is likely at the wrong height.
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Old 07-30-21, 04:24 AM
  #84  
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Update after the latest bike fit:

Leg length discrepancy 1cm shorter left
Saddle lowered to 72cm (cleats moved further back so effective 72.5cm compared to original position)
saddle pushed back from 5.8mm setback to 6.8mm
The drops to the bars are 3cm
Shimming on the left foot 6mm + the angled wedge I made has been kept in place.

Recommended I but some Shimano RC7 shoes as they'll help with foot pain as I need wider shoes and also insoles as I have flat feet.

My left leg has smaller quads, well to the right of it I can definitely notice this, I'm assuming this might be because I've not been able to get power down which makes sense, my right leg is fine no issues, and that's the side that is the most stable.

Initial ride I experienced pain the the upper right of my left knee, this I would expect is that smaller muscle compared to the right , I'm now putting power through that leg more so it's going to have to get used to it, I assume by me doing longer steadier miles as pushing my usual 250 to 300w causes the pain.
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Old 07-30-21, 10:45 AM
  #85  
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Do you use cleats? Are you sure the cleat isn't keeping your foot at the unique angle that you and only you alone need at both the top and bottom of your pedal stroke?

My left and right foot have do not sit anywhere near the same angle on the pedals. On foot the heal to toe line is almost straight and parallel to the bikes centerline. The other is angled with the heel much closer. It does make a difference. Recently I had a cleat come loose and I got it with the wrong angle. While my knee felt good when extended, on the up stroke, I could feel a little twist that was becoming annoying. So I stopped and adjusted my cleat.

Did you ever say whether your saddle height is measured to the pedal at its downstroke or to the BB?
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Old 07-30-21, 06:35 PM
  #86  
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I'm surprised no one has suggested seeing a physical therapist for the purpose of ascertaining the underlying problem which is causing your unusual slide to the left.

Is it a slight misalignment of the leg after your previous fractures? Is it a shorter leg? Is it a lack of flexibility in one or more knee, hip, or ankle joint? These are all things that a physical therapist can check out for you. Once you know the underlying problem(s) then you and the bike fitters will have much better ideas of which way to go with your position on the bike.
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Old 08-02-21, 12:29 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
I'm surprised no one has suggested seeing a physical therapist for the purpose of ascertaining the underlying problem which is causing your unusual slide to the left.

Is it a slight misalignment of the leg after your previous fractures? Is it a shorter leg? Is it a lack of flexibility in one or more knee, hip, or ankle joint? These are all things that a physical therapist can check out for you. Once you know the underlying problem(s) then you and the bike fitters will have much better ideas of which way to go with your position on the bike.
Brent
Is a physical therapist a physiotherapist? If so I'm going to be referred the one on the NHS, not hoping for much but we'll see.

I am concerned about the leg length discrepancy I really don't think I had this 2 years ago, it's developed over the past 2 years I think.
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Old 08-02-21, 04:47 PM
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Since you ask, I had to look too. Physical Therapy and Physiotherapy: What is the difference?


Steve Hogg had some articles on bike fit that he mentioned leg length descrepancies and in some cases they were just that the person had developed bad habits and how they held their hips or something that a physiotherapist or physical therapist was able to fix and then Steve Hogg was able to solve the fit issues.

Can't find that article though. But he has a lot of interesting reads if you like to dig through the various stuff he has written. https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/index/

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Old 08-03-21, 02:05 AM
  #89  
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I'm expecting I'll need another bike fit in a year or two.

I'm going to see what the physio can do, and I've been looking at some "yoga for cyclists" videos on YouTube that were recommended, it's bloody hard but kind of feels good.

I'm going to see if the physio and the yoga and regular stretching does anything. If anything I can only imagine as my bike fit changes because I stretch more than I shouldn't start to feel pain , well I'd hope not as technically I should become more flexible.

But I'm hoping as time goes by I can remove the shimms. It's a bigger shimming for my commuter with SPD cleats.

Riding takes a lot of thinking currently I need to make sure o relax the heel and allow it to point inwards and allow my knee to point slightly putwards on the to of the stroke, doing this and I have much more stability.

I've literally gained 30w average without really pushing more, that additional power just brings in line with my form, mostly it's from been more consistent on the pedals I think.

Last edited by willhub; 08-03-21 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 01-10-22, 03:32 AM
  #90  
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Just thought I'd post here rather than a new thread. I caved in the end, was seeing a physio, he could see one hand is resting against my hip whilst the other is floating in the air (when stood) which shows one side of my pelvis is higher than the other. Leg length seems to be about 1.2cm different (left shorter).

I've gone to see a chiropractor and he made some adjustments (a hell of a lot of cracking occurred), he told me this is temporary (probably worn off by now) and I'm awaiting on what he details based on his assessment are, he'll then give me a plan of action to help me reduce the symptom.

In the meantime I try get out 2 to 3 times a week, I can only manage 20 miles, maybe 30-40 if I'm really lucky, always in lots of pain by the end of it, a lot slower as I've gained 2 stone since a year ago. It's like a train wreck cycling life just hope I can recover, especially now juggling fitness with a baby son and angry girlfriend.
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