Polaris OBark

Let me begin by saying that although I do most of my own wrenching, I have always been afraid to turn a spoke wrench, let alone true a wheel, for fear of doing significant damage.

I have a Chris King rear wheel, X-ray spokes, and HED Belgium + rim that has been rock solid since 2014 when I got it. My one very minor quibble is it is about 1.5 mm off center, toward the drive side. However, the wheel remains quite true. (Two other wheels I use on this frame are not off-center.) I've lived with it for 8 years, but it has always annoyed me. Recently I switched to tubeless, and one of the unintended consequences is that my favorite tire is 1 mm wider, and is too close to the right chain stay for comfort. Hence, I would like to recenter the wheel slightly to the left.

Normally, I would just take this to a shop and have it done right, but it kind of bothers me that I can't do what should be a straightforward and minor adjustment. But I don't want to trash an otherwise flawless wheel (which is technically within tolerance for normal people.)

If I do this myself, I would likely borrow a truing stand from a friend who bought one with the hope of learning to build wheels, and then didn't. I would like to learn at least a little, but already I have found myself encountering conflicting advice.

Once source says to proceed by tightening all of the non-drive-side nipples 1/4 turn, followed by relaxing the drive side by 1/4 turn. Another says simply to tighten the non-drive side (again, incrementally). I can see pros and cons for each.

Also, should I keep the tire on?

cxwrench

Why on earth would you just tighten the drive side? It's already off center in that direction. If the wheel has CX-Ray spokes you need something to hold them/keep them from twisting. I prefer the DT bladed spoke holder. You should have a tension gauge of some kind as well. I'd probably tighten the NDS and loosen the DS as you've posted. If the wheel is properly tensioned now you will absolutely need to add some tension to the NDS.

Andrew R Stewart 

" Another says simply to tighten the drive side (again, incrementally). " PO

I think I would avoid this advice, being the opposite of where you want the rim to go

Second thing I think of- If 1.5 mm of added clearance, on one side, will make the difference I would consider the tires too wide for the frame.

The best no cost way to learn to true wheels is to have no skin in the wheel you start with. Find a low/no cost wheel with lots of spokes and play with it. Front or rear doesn't matter. Just that you have a sample to learn nipple work with rim deflection played off of spoke tension. Wheel truing is a massive shade of grey compared to adjusting a gear system or installing bearings. Absolutes are less important than relativeness is.

Last thing I think of with this post is how well made the OP's wheels were to begin with and how their parts will make learning to true a wheel harder than if started with a far less "performance" intended one. The OP's wheel has few spokes that are rather thin, likely with AL nipples and laced to a fairly stiff rim... Andy

Mad Honk 

And I would add that moving a spacer to the drive side to change the clearance would be the easiest way to do the job. Smiles, MH

ThermionicScott 

Just for fun, you could take the tire off and check the centering again. It's not uncommon for a wheel to be perfectly centered to start with, then shift to the right a bit when a tire is mounted and inflated. When building or truing a rear wheel, I put on a tire to see if it does this and adjust accordingly, but not everyone does.

Polaris OBark

The second to last paragraph should have had the second sentence "Another says simply to tighten the non-drive side (again, incrementally)."

Sorry. I was in a rush to drive to the airport when I posted this, and didn't proof-read it correctly.

Also: 28 spokes, brass nipples.

Older (and slightly less expensive) version of this.

Polaris OBark

Anyway, the main question (even if I never attempt this myself) is/was whether it is sufficient to simply tighten the non-drive-side spokes, or whether the drive side ones should be slackened to compensate.

ThermionicScott 

I would let my tensiometer answer that question. If the drive-side spokes are below the max tension rating of the rim (with the tire off!), I'd go ahead and add a bit of tension to the non-drive-side spokes, knowing that this will pull up the drive-side spokes as well. But if the DS spokes are at or above the max rating, I'd let a bit of tension out of them first. That might be enough to re-center the wheel without adding more tension to the NDS spokes.

cxwrench

So if I understand this correctly you would create another problem instead of properly fixing the original one? Have I got that right?

pdlamb

Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

Whatever combination of tension, spoke prep, or other magic was applied to your wheel when it was built is going to be disrupted if you proceed to make it perfect. If you're going to go tubeless, get the next size smaller tire.

And if you decide to mess it up anyway, I'd just tighten the NDS spokes a quarter turn. IIRC the NDS/DS tensioning ratio is about 3X, meaning you have to turn NDS spokes roughly 3/4 turn for every 1/4 turn in the opposite direction on the DS spokes. To retain the same tension you've got now you'd want to detension the DS spokes about 1/12 turn -- hardly worth it.

Just remember the best advice is often "Don't just do something, stand there!"

ClydeClydeson

I would take the tire off, or at least deflate, before truing.

You don't need a truing stand - just put a zip-tie around one of your seat stays and use it as a gauge.

Tighten the non-drive side by 1/4 turn on each spoke, then evaluate the centeredness. If it is close enough then do no more. If you want it to move a bit more then loosen DS spokes 1/4 turn. Evaluate again, then repeat the process. To get the wheel to move 1.5mm you shouldn't have to do this procedure (tightening + loosening) more than twice.

Generally speaking, you want the total amount of tension in all spokes to remain roughly the same, which is why you try to loosen spokes whenever tightening spokes. In my experience, though, most wheels can handle a slight increase in total tension, but many cannot handle a decrease, hence my advice to try tightening NDS spokes without loosening any when you start.

hokiefyd 

You can certainly measure spoke tension, but common sense is handy as well.

If you know "about" what a good wheel's spokes feel like (in terms of tension), then you can work to approximate that on your wheel. Squeeze two crossing spokes on both sides of the wheel. The drive side spokes should feel a little tighter/tauter than the non-drive side, but they'll probably feel somewhat close. If they already feel "really tight", then I might start by loosening the drive side nipples, perhaps 1/4 turn each, working around the wheel. I'd start at the valve hole and work around until you get back to the valve, to ensure you hit each nipple once and exactly once. This shouldn't change the lateral or radial runout of the wheel much at all, but should work to move the rim just slightly to the left. If, on the other hand, the spokes don't feel all that tight and you think they could be a little tighter, which actually describes most wheels, then start by tightening the non drive side nipples 1/4 turn, and work your way around the wheel, as described prior.

In either case, check the wheel center and check the spoke feel after one iteration of this. Is the rim centered...or at least better? If you feel it's good enough, then stop right there. If you feel it could use another iteration, decide then if you should repeat what you did before or if you should switch to the other side's spoke nipples to compensate.

Repeat those steps to slowly scootch the rim over towards the non drive side. Again, I'd let common sense prevail here and go with what feels good to you. If you think the spokes are about right at present, then maybe do one of each -- loosen the drive side a quarter turn, followed by tightening the non drive side by a quarter turn, and recheck. You need to move the wheel 1.5mm, which is not a trivial amount, so it may take an interation of two of working around the circumference to do it.

Just make complete laps around the wheel with your spoke wrench. A complete lap around ensures that you move the rim uniformly to one side. A partial lap means you move only part of the rim to one side -- and you'll end up with more lateral runout than you want (an "untrue" rim).

When this all works out successfully, congratulations -- you've just re-dished a wheel!

79pmooney

A good approach might well be - 1) check driveside spokes for tension. (I would guess the right shop would be willing to tell you this if you wanted to save on the meter cost.) 2) try turning a spoke or two. Do they turn smoothly or is this a fight? If turning is easy 3) loosen non-drive side if indicated and tighten non-drive side, tweak true as needed. If turning nipples is difficult AND a touch more dish is OK; both for chainline and derailleur reach, then 3A) move that spacer (or more likely, find thinner spacers and juggle accordingly) then re-adjust derailleur and cable tension.

You have a good wheel except it was built with a touch more dish than necessary. Messing with that good wheel by adjusting the spokes may upset that balance, leaving you with a problem wheel. Swapping spacers means a less optimum setup for chainline and derailleurs but you haven't messed with the basic good wheel. (Yes, the wheel brought bask to proper dish is theoretically better than what you have now but only if all the spokes are happy, no built-in twists, nipples still in good shape and spoke prep right.)

Now, if this was one of my 32 or 36 spoke wheels, built with long lasting grease, not locking spoke prep, I'd pull the dish out in a flash. But unless I was willing to perhaps need to loosen all the spokes, replace nipples as needed and tighten/true like this was a new wheel, I'd be very cautious about adjusting the dish..

mannion

TL;DR


If you have the budget, I'd recommend buying (or borrowing) a spoke tension meter. IMHO, this is the kind of thing that needs to be measured to do correctly. Plus, it will allay the trepidation you expressed in the original post about not wanting to adjust your spokes for fear of breaking your wheel.


Backstory


I have a crappy MTB and have beat it up pretty hard due to my poor riding skills. Consequently, I learned early to spend a minute adjusting the spokes every ride or two, which helped in a number of ways.


Being poor / cheap at the time, I didn't want to buy any specific tools. So, I got by for years with a little adjustable wrench to turn the spoke nipple, rules-of-thumb advice online, and plucking/flexing the spokes with my hand to check tension. (Oh, yeah, and the zip tie that ClydeClydeson mentioned). It worked fine for my low-tolerance components, low-pressure bulky tires, and weekend warrior riding style.


When I started road riding (and on a much better bike) tuning my wheels became more important. I initially managed tension by feel, and generally tightened spokes instead of loosened them per general advice. Last year, I talked Santa into a tension meter (and truing stand, dish gauge, etc.). Mrs. Claus was extremely understanding with Santa's expenditure, and got a nice wheel tune-up on her own bike as a reward.


Anyway, when I finally measured everything, I was both proud to find how round/dished/even my wheels were - and terrified that tension on the drive side of my rear wheel was about +50% of spec. I counted my blessings that I didn't end up head-first in a ditch on a fast descent the prior riding season.


The moral of the story is that I, like you, am not a professional bike mechanic and wasn't able to tell just by plucking/squeezing the spokes whether they were too tight/loose in absolute terms. I needed a tool to measure that for me - which I now use with glee all the time. I happened to buy the Park Tool TM-1, in large part because of the awesome Wheel Tension App on their website (I can't post URLs yet, but it's easy to find with a web search). The app lowered the learning curve for me, relative to just reading the printed charts, and made me a more confident DIY wheel tuner.

N2deep

Congrats for taking on this task. Im sure you'll learn a lot. I have zero experience so Im going to pass.

CX wrench has a great rep and tons of real life experience, trust this advise.

Mad Honk 

I don't think changing the hub centering on the axle by 1mm creates a new problem. The shift from one thin spacer to the drive side will give the clearance on the rim that the OP is looking for. Most axles have enough room for movement of 1mm in either direction. In the OP's case the move of 1mm should not create any problem.
As an example when rebuilding hubs there is frequently a missed spacer or washer that creates a bit less room for a freewheel and by adding that spacer the freewheel clearance is improved and the wheel build will not be affected. The spoke length calculator takes ovenut to center of flange into account when making the spoke length calcs. JMHO. MH

Bill Kapaun

If you could measure accurately enough to know that you are 1.5mm off, what is a truing stand going to gain you?

Just tighten the NDS spokes, being careful to turn each one EXACTLY the same amount.
I would think a 1/4 turn would get you quite close, but I'd do it in 2 (or more if needed) steps, turning each nipple 1/8 turn each step.
Recheck after each step.
Use a good spoke wrench. The cheap ones will round nipples far more easily.

Polaris OBark

I think it will be problematic, at least in my case. Assuming the effect of a 1mm spacer is to move the tire/rim 0.5 mm toward the center, it isn't enough. However, it is enough to force me to recalibrate my derailleur every time I swap wheels, and it will also move the disc rotor 0.5mm to the left, which might even be out of range of the brake caliper adjustment (and at minimum, another major annoyance). Although the frame is steel, it is putting some stress on the rear triangle as well. All of this leads me to believe correcting the initial problem is the way forward (or just continuing to live with it).

Polaris OBark

I'm playing with an old mountain bike wheel at the moment, and rapidly convincing myself that I really don't have an aptitude for this.

Polaris OBark

I've got the Park Tool SW-9 Double Ended Spoke Wrench on the way, along with a Park Tool Bsh-4 Bladed Spoke Holder to try to avoid winding the bladed spokes up. (Unfortunately I ordered that before I saw CX's advice to get the DTSwiss one.)

cxwrench

Building, tensioning, truing wheels is easy. Just remember that every time you adjust tension on any given spoke the rim will move laterally AND vertically, so in practice it moves diagonally. If you're adjusting radial runout you have to adjust every spoke in the problem area tighter or looser to keep the rim straight. If you're adjusting lateral runout you will usually end up adjusting the spokes on one side tighter and the other side looser. Just visualize in your head diagonal as well as lateral/vertical movement.

hokiefyd 

It's probably worth mentioning also that Park Tool has an excellent video series on wheel service, including spoke tensioning and fixing both radial and lateral runout:

https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help?area%5B%5D=62

BCRider

The axles might well have the room needed. But you're going to shift the hub and cassette by that same 1mm and cause shifting with that wheel to be off compared to the others that Polaris said he also uses with that bike. If all three wheels shift consistently right now with no need to make adjustments between swaps that's a great setup. It would be a true shame to mess that up with a shim which would most certainly do just that.

Polaris, there's no doubt that there's a skill and some degree of feel to tuning up a wheel. You're finding that now with playing with the old MTB wheel. But once you gain the skill and feel you'll have a very handy new skill which is very helpful to your riding. Stick with it and think about it like cxwrench just posted in his more recent post. How he describes it is a great way to think about it.

And when you get close to the final tune it also pays to reduce any changes to more like 1/8 turns and go around twice so you sneak up on things a little more carefully.

But mostly I'd just add to stick with it and learn what you can from that MTB wheel.

Polaris OBark

Thank you. I started with those.

Polaris OBark

I did it, and the wheel stayed true!