Happy Feet

It's Monry Python all over again.

I posted a video that shows what it shows. I'll leave it at that.

njkayaker

Yeah, it shows countersteering.

You make a slowish, long-radius turn to the right at 1:40. There's bit of countersteer at the start of it. It's often something people are not aware of doing.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 2:58

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 3:39 (there's another countersteer in the middle of the turn).

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 5:34.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 5:53.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:09.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:12.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:18.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:23.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:28.

You countersteer at the start of the turn at 6:40. This one is interesting because its showing how the countersteer for the upcoming turn comes from ending the prior turn. In this turn, you turn the bar left much more than you need to for that left turn (the bars are tweaked a bit more to the left). That's the countersteer for the turn you make to the right. The turns on this ride often obscure the countersteering that is going on.

I bet I missed many more.

Happy Feet

Did you ever consider, that when somone makes a video to show an effect they may over emphasize that effect? Like the Rene Herse video before it one could just as easily make those turns without the exaggerated swoop effect

Sure man.. sure. That's what's happening alright. All those counter turns

If it's something so many people are unaware of why consciously practice it? It happens sub consciously to the point you can't even see it.

njkayaker

They are pretty apparent if you know to look for them. It's an experience thing.

You practice because you can get better at it (obviously). If you countersteer more deliberately, you can make sharper/quicker turns.

I can see it (in your video).

wolfchild

This debate on how to make a turn on a bicycle is going to discourage all the newbies and potential cyclists from picking up the hobby of cycling because they're going to think that they have to take a science class and a special course and get a special app to learn how to make a simple turn on a bicycle...

livedarklions

And somehow, 4 year olds can do it. That pre-K physics course must be something, huh?

Happy Feet

Most people steer bicycles without ever having heard about it.

A solution in search of a problem.

wolfchild

I've never heard anything about the right way or wrong way of steering a bicycle....Over the years I just developed the feel for how to steer a bicycle in different types of terrain and weather conditions and I developed my own style and technique.

njkayaker

Yes, 4 year olds are expert cyclists.

Most people not very skilled cyclists too.

njkayaker

This thread doesn't really belong here.

In any case, most people (including newbies) already think they know all they need to know about cycling and are stuck not being very good (or as good as they could be).

The real sad thing about this thread isn't that newbies will be discouraged from riding but that they are being encouraged to think don't need to do anything much to be better (by two people who don't know enough).

Why require people to learn by themselves "over the years", when they can learn stuff more quickly from other people?

===============

Many people ride many miles and many years without knowing (or using) the "proper" way to start their bike. That indicates that people's ability to learn things on their own isn't very reliable.

unterhausen

If there is any skill a cyclist needs to learn it's not holding on to the bars like death. Or as I like to say, the bike knows which way to go. If you have a relaxed hold on the bars, the steering mechanics take care of themselves. There are videos of riderless bikes that show this natural phenomenon. The videos of cyclists intentionally countersteering in this thread make me think they are going to crash. Nobody turns with an exaggerated movement like that. You can watch downhill racers all day and not see anything like that.

A motorcycle really wants to stay upright and go straight. You have to force it into a lean, and it needs to lean to turn. Otherwise it will flop the wrong way when the rider turns. The rider does that by steering it out from under the rider's center of gravity in the direction opposite of the desired lean.

livedarklions

Funny, I just posted in another thread about coming back to riding after an illness layup and realizing I was unconsciously putting a death grip on my hoods. I think it's a classic counterproductive thing people do when they're feeling insecure.

Sy Reene

I always wanted to give one of these bikes a shot

njkayaker

Most people aren't great riders too.

People don't (usually) do what is shown in the videos. The point is to make what is going clear and to show that more than just the default can be done.

Keep in mind that some people here deny that countersteering occurs.

It might be more crucial to practice deliberately for certain types of riding (like criterion racing) than others.

https://coachob.com/1638/

Cpn_Dunsel

The word 'most' is a good choice here.

My partner (of 25+ years) has yet to learn how to turn a bike properly. She is truly a menace to both herself and those around her when it comes to any type of cornering acumen. And like so many with such an affliction, trying to explain to them how to do it properly only makes their end result more unlikely to yield positive results.

njkayaker

What's being discussed here requires a base level of competence. It's a talking about a refinement of a skill people (who can ride) already have.

No one here is suggesting to start people without skill to start with this discussion.

(People don't learn carving the first time they are on skis either.)

GhostRider62

Also good skill to "Faire le pee pee"

Shimagnolo

Ah, yes; The Destin Sandlin Counter-Steering Bike (TM).
It does the counter-steering automatically for you!

Happy Feet

Yes.

I could also see someone thinking they need to consciously practice counter turning to be a better rider and starting to put them into all sorts of unrelated turns and confusing others if on a group ride.

I don't think anyone said counter turning doesn't happen, well, I'll speak for myself anyway. Consciously, it is a technique for certain situations that I have described several times.

Some have said it always happens and you can't turn otherwise and then backed off that by putting all sorts of caveats into the equation to the point of saying when you don't lean. Very few people don't lean when turning because, as I.said, it would feel like riding a tricycle. Even on a tricycle you want to lean but can't and are more prone to tipping outward because of it

I also said some are using the term counter turn to describe counter balance. This is what some say they are seeing in my videos. I ride a twitchy bike and often counter balance by using the bars but rarely am deliberately steering one way to go the other. When I do that it's usually to increase the radius of a tight turn by first moving outward.

Now we are into the "appeal to authority" stage where it's a technique so advanced that the uneducated cannot understand what the experts are saying.

One poster is right that this doesn't really belong in general cycling. Those strong proponents of it are either relating it to racing or motorcycle riding. Not what most/many general cyclists are doing.

GhostRider62

Riding no hands is a good skill when a bee enters your jersey when descending at 40 mph and decides to sting you wantonly, until you slap the honey out of it with both hands.

Wait, do I tilt left? Should I squash his little butt with the right hand?

njkayaker

Yes, because the only place people can practice is on a group ride. (This is a specious reason not to practice something.)

Contrast that with the "appeal to people who don't know enough".

It's not "so advanced" either. It's regularly taught to beginner motorcyclists.

terrymorse 

Yes, and what? That somehow invalidates the physics being demonstrated?

The effect of counter steer is to keep the bike balanced.

I just did a twisty and fast road descent. Didn’t shift my weight once to turn the bike. I counter steered to lean the bike, which then turned precisely and smoothly.

DaveSSS 

You should try to carve a precise corner going 30-40 mph down a mountain descent, without using the bars. Good luck with that.

DaveSSS 

That's how I do it. Sit normally, hands in the drops and counter steer. I lived in Highlands Ranch, CO for 7 years. I rode up and down Deer Creek Canyon Rd, a 10 mile climb, 100 times a year for 7 years. Never cooked a corner, but did slide out once, due to sand on the road. My MSF training was put to use on every descent. I've negotiated corners with one hand held open. All you do is push on the right side to turn right, then let up to allow the bike to quit turning at the end of a corner. No body English required.

njkayaker

Really?



All I was talking about was that the handlebar moves when riding no-handed. Not the silly nonsense you are imaging I said.

Again, countersteering is the wheel/handlebar pointed to the outside of the turn momentarily at the start.

There are all sorts of ways to make it turn. That doesn't mean all ways will work in all circumstances.

Sheesh.