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Real World Test Data on Double Butted Spokes?

Old 09-15-21, 05:09 AM
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TiHabanero
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Real World Test Data on Double Butted Spokes?

One hears it all the time, and the experts proclaim it, however I have not been able to find any studies that demonstrate the superior fatigue resistance to breakage of double butted spokes. Please, does anyone have access to any real world testing of double butted spokes vs. straight gauge spokes when laced into a wheel?
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Old 09-15-21, 06:24 AM
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Still chewing on this, eh? https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...ed-spokes.html
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Old 09-15-21, 07:00 AM
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What is 'real world' + 'data'. In all my years in R&D darned if we could ever equate the two because the real world is just so complicated, see above.

I suppose it is just more fashionable words, like the 'research on the internet' everyone seems to engage in these days...
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Old 09-15-21, 07:21 AM
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I think the argument in favor of DB spokes is theoretical, and it makes sense to me. However, I suspect that the advantages of DB spokes are small when compared to differences in rim strength, hub flange design, and the overall quality (tension, evenness of tension) in a wheel build. I also suspect that straight gauge spokes have a bad rap, in part, because they are more commonly used in lower quality machine-built wheels which will fail more often for reasons.
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Old 09-15-21, 07:22 AM
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It's been several years but we had an amusing poster, arm chair engineer type, who went on at length about his efforts to convince some large company (DT Swiss?) that straight gauge spokes were better for bikes. IIRC, he had also tried to foist his "discovery" on some known wheel authorities (Brandt?) w/o success. I wish I could remember the user name, was quite entertaining.
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Old 09-15-21, 07:32 AM
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I was just trying to figure out how you could do a real world, scientifically defensible, test. It's tough, because even if I weighed the same as my neighbor (the scrawny lightweight) and we used similar wheels, we ride different routes, over different roads, etc.

This is the only way I could think of doing the test:

1. Build a wheel with half straight spokes, half butted. (Rear would probably be better, that's where most of my broken spokes come from.)

2. True and tension all the spokes on either side to the same tension. (Low end tension is likely to drive failure faster.)

3. Periodically touch up tension to make sure spokes aren't coming loose.

4. Ride lots and note which spokes fail. (This is likely to take a few years!)

5. Give me some credit when you publish the scientific paper that results from all this work.
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Old 09-15-21, 08:35 AM
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This is an archive of a lot of Jobst Brandt's usenet debates. I don't see any place where he lays out directly why butted spokes (he refers to them as "swaged spokes") are better or worse, but he does address them in a couple of posts here and here. At various points, he seems to say that swaged spokes are better than straight-gauge spokes, but he also seems to be saying (and I hate to put words in his mouth) that spoke metallurgy has gotten so good that it doesn't matter.
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Old 09-15-21, 08:57 AM
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.
...the latest thing (that I've read) from the Wheel Fanatyk blog is all about cross sectional area in the spoke elbow. How more area at the elbow should give a longer spoke life. Not sure it's based on anything other than the theoretical, though.
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Old 09-15-21, 10:05 AM
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The spoke itself isn't the only thing that does better butted. My experience is that rims built on butted spokes are less likely to crack at the spoke holes. I'd guess the same would be true of the hub flanges cracking but my sample size of broken hub flanges is much to small to draw conclusions.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:04 AM
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I was a helper in the shipyard and the bolts on the high pressure steam turbine case were double butted.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
As usual, FBinNY summed it all up perfectly:

Originally Posted by FBinNY
One of the earliest makers and promoters of waged (double butted) spokes was the Torington Company of Connecticut.

Interestingly they promoted the concept, not as stronger or lighter, but less expensive.

Understand that the typical steels used for spokes have a shear strength of about 80% the tensile strength. Likewise the thread pf a 2mm spoke has a root diameter of about 1.8mm. So operating under the theory that a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link, any material in the middle of a spoke beyond 80% of the elbow diameter, or the root of the thread (whichever is lower) is wasted material, and a 2/1.6/2.0mm spoke will be as strong as a 2mm plain gauge spoke.

Torrington wasn't as concerned about weight per se, but better use of pricey high strength steels and was selling their butted spokes at the same or lower price than competitors plain spokes.

The info above applies only to strength. However rigidity is a function of the average cross section, so butted spokes build a wheel with flex properties comparable to plain spokes of the thin section.

Lastly is the issue of fatigue, where butted spokes shine. All things being equal, the thinner mid section of butted spokes take up more of the deflections, and so tend to prolong the fatigue life of the ends.

So, no matter how you slice it, the fact that butted spokes are superior when we consider strength, weight & fatigue life is no myth. But fortunately all types of spokes are still available, so you don't have to accept this and can still buy whatever spoke you want.
So one way to think about this whole thing is to flip it around: when you compare a 2.0mm straight-gauge spoke to a 2.0/1.6/2.0 butted spoke, the straight-gauge spoke is unnecessarily heavy for its strength. Obviously, that's not a problem for most situations, it just isn't optimal.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by adamrice
This is an archive of a lot of Jobst Brandt's usenet debates. I don't see any place where he lays out directly why butted spokes (he refers to them as "swaged spokes") are better or worse, but he does address them in a couple of posts here and here. At various points, he seems to say that swaged spokes are better than straight-gauge spokes, but he also seems to be saying (and I hate to put words in his mouth) that spoke metallurgy has gotten so good that it doesn't matter.
Classic bit from his book: "It appears that the better spokes now available would have made the discovery of many of the concepts in this book more difficult for lack of failure data. I am grateful in retrospect for the poor durability of earlier spokes. They operated so near their limit that durability was significantly altered by the techniques that I have outlined."
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Old 09-16-21, 08:31 AM
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While I don’t doubt that butted spokes are better, it has been a moot point for me. In my lifetime my weight has varied by 70 lbs, thankfully I’m closer to the lower end these days, and I’ve ridden both straight and butted without a problem.

I can’t recall ever breaking a spoke, or cracking a rim, although I must admit that we have good roads where I live. But I have a mtb with straight gauge spokes and it is holding up fine.

What I do find amusing is that when digging info from the archives, decades ago the 36 spoke wheel was the gold standard for strong wheels, unless you were loaded touring, or tandem, or both then it was 40, or even 48.

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Old 09-16-21, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero
One hears it all the time, and the experts proclaim it, however I have not been able to find any studies that demonstrate the superior fatigue resistance to breakage of double butted spokes. Please, does anyone have access to any real world testing of double butted spokes vs. straight gauge spokes when laced into a wheel?
Pillar Spokes doesn’t present testing in a laced wheel but they appear to have measured the breaking strength of all of their various spokes. They likely used some version of a machine like an Instron tester. You have to click through all the spokes to see the data. Comparisons of the various strengths means flipping back and forth between several pages so it’s not the easiest to use but it’s the only real data I’ve ever found.

I have screen captured some of their graphs in the past.

Straight gauge
Image 5-11-18 at 1.41 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Double butted

Image 5-11-18 at 1.44 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Triple butted

Image 5-11-18 at 1.43 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You can see a clear increase in strength with butting and with increased head diameter. Looking at the 2.0mm spoke, going to a 2.0/1.8/2.0mm (1415 on graph) there is an about a 10% increase in strength. Going to a 2.2/1.8/2.0 (2018 on graph), there is a 22% increase in strength over a straight spoke. Pillar makes a 2.4/1.8/2.0mm quad butted spoke that has a breaking strength of 340 kgf or 25% greater strength than single butted.
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Old 09-16-21, 04:34 PM
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Tensile strength of spokes is almost completely irrelevant. Most spokes that break break from fatigue, IME.
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Old 09-16-21, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Tensile strength of spokes is almost completely irrelevant. Most spokes that break break from fatigue, IME.
According to the ASM International Elements of Metallurgy and Engineering Alloys, 2008, they are related.

For a large number of steels, there is a direct correlation between tensile strength and fatigue strength; higher-tensile-strength steels have higher endurance limits.
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Old 09-16-21, 09:09 PM
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Every spoke I've broken was at the head or the nipple.That would be the butted section.
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Old 09-17-21, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
Every spoke I've broken was at the head or the nipple.That would be the butted section.
Look at DT Swiss. The Champion is 14 and the Competition is 14/15/14. They're the same diameter at the head and nipple and the Comp is butted down in the center. Because the center is thinner on the Comp it bends easier and takes stress off the larger ends.

I personally like only butted because they're lighter and they don't ride as stiff. And I prefer higher 28 or 32 spoke counts so it's even more pronounced. For the minimal price increase it's worth it to me. The only spoke I ever recall snapping happened in the 90's.

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Old 09-17-21, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
According to the ASM International Elements of Metallurgy and Engineering Alloys, 2008, they are related.
Sure, but if you build the wheel correctly you won't have fatigue from the stress dropping too low, so the correlation between tensile strength and fatigue doesn't matter anyway. No fatigue, no breakage, no dependence on tensile strength.
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Old 09-17-21, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Sure, but if you build the wheel correctly you won't have fatigue from the stress dropping too low, so the correlation between tensile strength and fatigue doesn't matter anyway. No fatigue, no breakage, no dependence on tensile strength.
Which comes back to using butted spokes on the rear NDS (at a minimum) since they don't drop as much tension each cycle...

Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt
For a given slackness tolerance tension needs are proportional to cross-sectional area.

IOW, a 1.8mm diameter spoke needs 81% of the tension on a 2.0mm spoke.

If 60 kgf is OK at 2mm, 49 kgf is just as good at 1.8mm, 38 kgf at 1.6mm, and 34 kgf at 1.5mm.
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Old 09-17-21, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Lazyass
Look at DT Swiss. The Champion is 14 and the Competition is 14/15/14. They're the same diameter at the head and nipple and the Comp is butted down in the center. Because the center is thinner on the Comp it bends easier and takes stress off the larger ends.

I personally like only butted because they're lighter and they don't ride as stiff. And I prefer higher 28 or 32 spoke counts so it's even more pronounced. For the minimal price increase it's worth it to me. The only spoke I ever recall snapping happened in the 90's.
I was going to say much the same thing. The “butted” part of the spoke is generally considered to be the thin bit.
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Old 09-17-21, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Sure, but if you build the wheel correctly you won't have fatigue from the stress dropping too low, so the correlation between tensile strength and fatigue doesn't matter anyway. No fatigue, no breakage, no dependence on tensile strength.
In theory, perhaps. In practice, spokes break. Spokes used in situations where the wheel carries more load break more frequently. Heavy riders and riders carrying heavy loads decrease the tension on the spokes as it comes around where it is fully loaded more than lighter riders or lighter loads. They flex the heads more and thus increase the stress on the spoke.

Wheels that are “built correctly” include using a spoke that has a greater tensile strength so that it survives the cycle of tension/detension better.
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Old 09-20-21, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Pillar Spokes doesn’t present testing in a laced wheel but they appear to have measured the breaking strength of all of their various spokes. They likely used some version of a machine like an Instron tester. You have to click through all the spokes to see the data. Comparisons of the various strengths means flipping back and forth between several pages so it’s not the easiest to use but it’s the only real data I’ve ever found.

I have screen captured some of their graphs in the past.

Straight gauge
Image 5-11-18 at 1.41 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Double butted

Image 5-11-18 at 1.44 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Triple butted

Image 5-11-18 at 1.43 PM by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You can see a clear increase in strength with butting and with increased head diameter. Looking at the 2.0mm spoke, going to a 2.0/1.8/2.0mm (1415 on graph) there is an about a 10% increase in strength. Going to a 2.2/1.8/2.0 (2018 on graph), there is a 22% increase in strength over a straight spoke. Pillar makes a 2.4/1.8/2.0mm quad butted spoke that has a breaking strength of 340 kgf or 25% greater strength than single butted.
For sure. Nice to see some data to back up what's been known to good wheelbuilders for ages.

It's well-established that butted spokes are superior to straight-gauge in every way except cost. I don't see how this is even debatable.

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Old 09-20-21, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by hydrocarbon
It's well-established that butted spokes are superior to straight-gauge in every way except cost. I don't see how this is even debatable.
Seems OP may not be convinced, though he hasn't been back to his thread since he started it.
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