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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 07-15-22, 07:03 PM
  #651  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Even pros aren't rocking ridiculous setups like yours. Lower != better; it's not a matter of "aero is everything," it's more like "speed is everything." Speed is going to rely on a balance between aero and power production. Power production will include muscle recruitment, oxygen intake, etc - this can suffer dramatically with extreme setups. Maybe this is an optimized position for you, in particular, but I have a strong hunch that you don't have enough data for even that conclusion.
I am into speed, but another objective is cosplay. I get a kick of riding my Lance Armstrong bike with a "7" on it and every year when the TDF comes around I cycle a little bit faster in my team lyrcra. I want some of that Israel Premier kit!

But, no you are wrong, the pros do rock a "ridiculous"

ADDENDUM I see now that you are claim that my, and or Cobbs, set up is ridiculous because you believe it would not result in speed. I am sorry about that. I believe it does result in greater speed, as argued by John Cobb, and there is nothing ridiculous about it.

set up like mine and Robbie's when they are cycling time trials which is what Robbie's and my set up is for. If you ride in a team, in a big group, taking it in turns to lead the line, then the current un-aero aero road bikes may be a good idea (I say may, because I think even the pros may be dissatisfied with the comfort bikes that they are being encouraged to ride by the sponsors).
Sir Bradley
Alternatively, if you are more into cosplay than I am, and have a stronger desire to ride what the pros are riding, then a future shock may be for you, even when riding on your own.

Another objective is financial. Some people are I think financially inclined to sell expensive bikes to fat people, encouraging in them the cosplay dream of riding a pro's group ride bike, when the same customers would be much faster on something more suited to their style of riding.

99 % of the riders I see are riding alone.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Cobb sets a very low and flat back position on Robbie. Then, he calls it an all day position. He also says it takes weight off the hands and sit bones. Just wanted to say also that I recently bought one of his saddles, and it was also worthless
So you are saying his advice is worthless. I find his advice to be very good. I did not understand the part where he said that it takes weight off the sit bones, and sitting on ones glutes until recently. I thought it was a crazy idea, but I now feel it is great. I now sit on my saddle a bit like I am sitting on the seat of a recumbent, and push forwards rather than stomping down (explained here).

The diet advice is entirely an optional extra. In order to keep from getting fat again, it is a good idea, I think, in general to find things and activities that incentivise remaining non-fat. If you keep wearing baggy trousers then no one will say "hey, nice style!" because they won't see how thin you are. I recommend therefore buying tightish jeans if you get thin rather than sticking with form-hiding baggies. Similarly if you get thin and keep riding a Clydesdale geometry you would not enjoy the aerodynamic benefits of getting down long and low. If you do get a genuinely areo bike however, like Robbie's, then you will be encouraged to remain thin because going fast is fun.

I write a list of things that I attempt to use to encourage me to stay thin in the description of the photo below.

The Japanese Diet by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
I am not as thin now alas. Let's keep up the fight!

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Old 07-15-22, 07:29 PM
  #652  
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Originally Posted by timtak
But, no you are wrong, the pros do rock a "ridiculous" set up like mine and Robbie's when they are cycling time trials which is what Robbie's and my set up is for.
Ummmmmmm ... you're not riding a TT bike, you're riding a road bike.
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Old 07-15-22, 07:48 PM
  #653  
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Originally Posted by timtak
The modifications look good!

Just a little worried at the looks of the seatpost and saddle. Looks like a high stress region.

May I advice getting a custom frame built, a custom-geometry lightweight steel frame to move the seat tube farther back against the rear wheel to have better structural support for the saddle in that position.
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Old 07-15-22, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by timtak
But, no you are wrong, the pros do rock a "ridiculous" set up like mine and Robbie's when they are cycling time trials
No they don't. Typical TT bike fits increase tolerable lowness by rotating the whole rider forward, including putting the saddle much farther forward than on a road fit for the same rider. One major compromise of this is that it can require the rider to support significant weight with their arms, which is compensated by the aerobar's elbow supports. (Supporting your weight with your hands requires that the entire upper torso maintain tension, whereas with the elbows you can relax.)
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Old 07-15-22, 08:00 PM
  #655  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I did not understand the part where he said that it takes weight off the sit bones, and sitting on ones glutes until recently. I thought it was a crazy idea, but I now feel it is great.
I learned to sit on my glutes on very long, >5 hr long rides up in the mountains.

However, I can only do it when sitting relatively upright on my road bike even if my saddle is already tilted down. In less aero position which isn't a big deal on long and slow climbs. I will also do it in the flats if I'm trying to relax but will have to arch my back (convex) a bit more to get a bit more aero.

One "problem" of sitting on glutes is you will rock a bit. One might say it's inefficient. Ironically, I felt the opposite way and I feel less tired at the end of a 6 hr ride when I did so. So rocking isn't a problem at all.
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Old 07-15-22, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by timtak
But, no you are wrong, the pros do rock a "ridiculous" set up like mine and Robbie's when they are cycling time trials....
Well, in that case, it's a totally valid apples-to-apples comparison.
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Old 07-16-22, 05:30 AM
  #657  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
No they don't. Typical TT bike fits increase tolerable lowness by rotating the whole rider forward, including putting the saddle much farther forward than on a road fit for the same rider. One major compromise of this is that it can require the rider to support significant weight with their arms, which is compensated by the aerobar's elbow supports. (Supporting your weight with your hands requires that the entire upper torso maintain tension, whereas with the elbows you can relax.)
Yep. TicTac’s bike is not even close to that TT setup. The fact that he thinks it is speaks volumes to how little he understands it.

TT bikes have steep STAs. TicTac has done exactly the opposite and shoved his saddle all the way back on a setback seat post.

And why would one even post a TT race pic in a thread on non-competitive riding? Does he think those guys ride bikes like that when they are not racing or training?

Last edited by Kapusta; 07-16-22 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 07-16-22, 05:36 AM
  #658  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I mean, we've never discussed this question around here.
Thanks for your contribution. It’s people like you who give this site an unwelcoming reputation.
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Old 07-16-22, 06:02 AM
  #659  
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Originally Posted by bikehoco
Thanks for your contribution. It’s people like you who give this site an unwelcoming reputation.
You’re welcome!
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Old 07-16-22, 07:05 AM
  #660  
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Originally Posted by Rolla
I don't think anyone will argue with that. But rim preservation isn't the reason.

Cheers.
Unless you are independently wealthy and can afford to throw away high priced CF rims and other high priced rims, it has to be a factor.
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Old 07-16-22, 08:02 AM
  #661  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I am into speed, but another objective is cosplay. I get a kick of riding my Lance Armstrong bike with a "7" on it and every year when the TDF comes around I cycle a little bit faster in my team lyrcra. I want some of that Israel Premier kit!

But, no you are wrong, the pros do rock a "ridiculous" set up like mine and Robbie's when they are cycling time trials which is what Robbie's and my set up is for. If you ride in a team, in a big group, taking it in turns to lead the line, then the current un-aero aero road bikes may be a good idea (I say may, because I think even the pros may be dissatisfied with the comfort bikes that they are being encouraged to ride by the sponsors).
Sir Bradley
Alternatively, if you are more into cosplay than I am, and have a stronger desire to ride what the pros are riding, then a future shock may be for you, even when riding on your own.

Another objective is financial. Some people are I think financially inclined to sell expensive bikes to fat people, encouraging in them the cosplay dream of riding a pro's group ride bike, when the same customers would be much faster on something more suited to their style of riding.

99 % of the riders I see are riding alone.


So you are saying his advice is worthless. I find his advice to be very good. I did not understand the part where he said that it takes weight off the sit bones, and sitting on ones glutes until recently. I thought it was a crazy idea, but I now feel it is great. I now sit on my saddle a bit like I am sitting on the seat of a recumbent, and push forwards rather than stomping down (explained here).

The diet advice is entirely an optional extra. In order to keep from getting fat again, it is a good idea, I think, in general to find things and activities that incentivise remaining non-fat. If you keep wearing baggy trousers then no one will say "hey, nice style!" because they won't see how thin you are. I recommend therefore buying tightish jeans if you get thin rather than sticking with form-hiding baggies. Similarly if you get thin and keep riding a Clydesdale geometry you would not enjoy the aerodynamic benefits of getting down long and low. If you do get a genuinely areo bike however, like Robbie's, then you will be encouraged to remain thin because going fast is fun.

I write a list of things that I attempt to use to encourage me to stay thin in the description of the photo below.

The Japanese Diet by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
I am not as thin now alas. Let's keep up the fight!

Getting as low as he says should not be a primary objective. Rather, maximizing the Watts/CdA is more effective. Low like he advocates is not always faster. The current trend is not so low. It is 36 cm bars with flat untaped on top and integrated stems with no cables exposed. The fastest position is not in the drops. The aerodynamic perspective of the video is outdated by at least 10 years. I can't say anything about the seat position portion other than I just bought a Cobb rando saddle and it is not comfortable and not very well constructed.

He absolutely said weight is taken off the sit bones and hands (see 5:20 to about 5:30 in the cip), which is ridiculous. At a given cadence and power, there is a fixed amount of a rider's weight being supported by the feet/pedals. The rest is split between the hands and sit bones. The distribution of that remainder depends on many factors, but both cannot be reduced. It is either or scenario. Either you put more weight on your hands and less on your rear end or vice versa.

I did not say all of what he says is worthless. His two comments that I referenced are ridiculous and worthless to my style of riding. He said a certain very low position was an all day position at 5:40 in the clip. I'd like to see him ride 10-12 hours like that. yes, worthless opinion to me. Even when I was a young and fit racer, I could never hold that position all day. WRT to the weight on hands, feet, and saddle.....I did not look at your reference, I can do a freshman free body diagram and after 50+ years of riding, this 99 percenter will stick with his model. Weight is a zero sum game from hands, feet, and saddle with power and cadence determining the force on the pedals and position apportioning the remainder to the hands and saddle You think you are right, but you are wrong
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Old 07-16-22, 08:28 AM
  #662  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
…. WRT to the weight on hands, feet, and saddle.....I did not look at your reference, I can do a freshman free body diagram and after 50+ years of riding, this 99 percenter will stick with his model. Weight is a zero sum game from hands, feet, and saddle with power and cadence determining the force on the pedals and position apportioning the remainder to the hands and saddle You think you are right, but you are wrong
a question about this: obviously one not coast on a bike standing on the pedals with virtually no weight on the hands, just what is required to exert balancing forces. power/cadence 0 but 100% of body weight on the pedals. i would have thought there was a gradient between this static zero power position and the “vertical hammering out of the saddle” position in which there was still no weight on the saddle (obviously lol) and relatively little on the hands, in fact the hands are pulling up.

it’s what i do at the top of a climb when my butt is very sore/tired. for seated positions, can’t one simply lean their weight forward over the pedals, moving more weight there, but not pedaling harder or faster?

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Old 07-16-22, 08:39 AM
  #663  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
TT bikes have steep STAs. TicTac has done exactly the opposite and shoved his saddle all the way back on a setback seat post.
I believe it has something to do with his style of "push forward" pedaling to actively engage the glutes all the time, together with the quads and I think to also "scrape" the pedal backward at the bottom of the stroke.

I think we have similar goal of recruiting the glutes. However, it seems I can actively recruit the glutes even if my saddle is set to KOPS fore and aft position. You'll feel it if you're recruiting the glutes to a useful degree during z4 to z5 efforts. You'll feel the lactic build up on both glutes and quads happen at the same time and at the same intensity.

I can even at some point allocate more power to the glutes and hamstrings on the down stroke than to the quads that my quads never get sore at all or if I need to rest my quads if they get sore due to lactic build up.
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Old 07-16-22, 08:58 AM
  #664  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
He absolutely said weight is taken off the sit bones and hands (see 5:20 to about 5:30 in the cip), which is ridiculous. At a given cadence and power, there is a fixed amount of a rider's weight being supported by the feet/pedals. The rest is split between the hands and sit bones. The distribution of that remainder depends on many factors, but both cannot be reduced. It is either or scenario. Either you put more weight on your hands and less on your rear end or vice versa.
It's possible if 100% of the body weight is being supported by the pedals like when pedaling at very high resistance and moved your weight directly over the downstroke region.

It's also possible, all the wrong words came out at the wrong time (while talking in front of a camera).
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Old 07-16-22, 09:44 AM
  #665  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
I believe it has something to do with his style of .....
Moot point - his set-up is far and away different from that of pros, which was the point of contention.
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Old 07-16-22, 09:59 AM
  #666  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Moot point - his set-up is far and away different from that of pros, which was the point of contention.
… setting aside his fundamental premise that the pros are doing it wrong and would be faster if only those pesky sponsors didn’t force them to ride stupidly designed bikes. there is so much money, prestige, effort, skill, training involved at that level, i think it’s safe to say if there was such an easy way to go faster, they’d be doing it. whether those same setups and techniques apply to weekend warriors is a whole ‘nother question.
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Old 07-16-22, 11:01 AM
  #667  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
It's possible if 100% of the body weight is being supported by the pedals like when pedaling at very high resistance and moved your weight directly over the downstroke region.

It's also possible, all the wrong words came out at the wrong time (while talking in front of a camera).
Yes, it is also possible for zero weight to be on the pedals, saddle, and bars simultaneously when jumping railroad tracks.

The higher the pedaling force, the lower the forces on the saddle and hands but under any realistic scenario, 100% is never just on the pedals. Otherwise, your rear end would not be in contact with the saddle and your hands would not be touching the bars. Not possible. It is not hard to calculate the force on the pedals. During road racing or a TT, it is never 100% of the rider's weight. I would guess the typical pedal force to range from 30-60 pounds for 200-400 watts at 90 rpm. So a 150 pound rider, might have 90 pounds distributed to the hands and feet at full gas unless they had an injection from Negative Seven's Doc.
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Old 07-16-22, 01:26 PM
  #668  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Yes, it is also possible for zero weight to be on the pedals, saddle, and bars simultaneously when jumping railroad tracks.

The higher the pedaling force, the lower the forces on the saddle and hands but under any realistic scenario, 100% is never just on the pedals. Otherwise, your rear end would not be in contact with the saddle and your hands would not be touching the bars. Not possible. It is not hard to calculate the force on the pedals. During road racing or a TT, it is never 100% of the rider's weight. I would guess the typical pedal force to range from 30-60 pounds for 200-400 watts at 90 rpm. So a 150 pound rider, might have 90 pounds distributed to the hands and feet at full gas unless they had an injection from Negative Seven's Doc.
So, I wonder about this. At the end of most of my rides, I come back up a sequence of hills, and at least on the last and steepest bit, I pedal hard enough that my rear lifts up out of the saddle. I’m pushing a 42/16 up something close to 20% grade at 10 to 12 mph for maybe 10 seconds and probably doing something like 1000 Watts or maybe a tad more. I have my hands pulling back on the bar tops so that I don’t push myself backwards off the bike. So I think in that case the pedal force is about body weight, since it pushes me off the saddle? Your calculations look good, so at 1000 or maybe 1200 watts my pedal force would reach body weight of around 180 pounds.

Otto
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Old 07-16-22, 01:46 PM
  #669  
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Originally Posted by ofajen
So, I wonder about this. At the end of most of my rides, I come back up a sequence of hills, and at least on the last and steepest bit, I pedal hard enough that my rear lifts up out of the saddle. I’m pushing a 42/16 up something close to 20% grade at 10 to 12 mph for maybe 10 seconds and probably doing something like 1000 Watts or maybe a tad more. I have my hands pulling back on the bar tops so that I don’t push myself backwards off the bike. So I think in that case the pedal force is about body weight, since it pushes me off the saddle?

Otto
You can put the equivalent, or more, of your body weight in to the pedals, but you're not going to sustain it very long. You can do the math, with your weight and crankarm length, and get a ballpark power and cadence plot where you're maxing out your body weight. 1000w could certainly do it at the right cadence.
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Old 07-16-22, 03:32 PM
  #670  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You can put the equivalent, or more, of your body weight in to the pedals, but you're not going to sustain it very long.
Yeah, the amount of time I can do this is measured in seconds not minutes, but it is the fastest way to zip up a short steep hill. I can’t manage that speed up a steep hill at that cadence by standing on the pedals, I can only do it in this manner.

Otto
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Old 07-17-22, 01:58 AM
  #671  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Yes, it is also possible for zero weight to be on the pedals, saddle, and bars simultaneously when jumping railroad tracks.

The higher the pedaling force, the lower the forces on the saddle and hands but under any realistic scenario, 100% is never just on the pedals. Otherwise, your rear end would not be in contact with the saddle and your hands would not be touching the bars. Not possible. It is not hard to calculate the force on the pedals. During road racing or a TT, it is never 100% of the rider's weight. I would guess the typical pedal force to range from 30-60 pounds for 200-400 watts at 90 rpm. So a 150 pound rider, might have 90 pounds distributed to the hands and feet at full gas unless they had an injection from Negative Seven's Doc.
It's a lot simpler than you think. There are out-of-saddle (OOS) pedaling positions that almost unloads your arms with little effort.

Just ask Carbonfiberboy if you don't believe me.

Last edited by koala logs; 07-17-22 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 07-19-22, 01:22 AM
  #672  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Yep. TicTac’s bike is not even close to that TT setup. The fact that he thinks it is speaks volumes to how little he understands it.

TT bikes have steep STAs. TicTac has done exactly the opposite and shoved his saddle all the way back on a setback seat post.

And why would one even post a TT race pic in a thread on non-competitive riding? Does he think those guys ride bikes like that when they are not racing or training?

It's fairly bizarre. If he isn't a troll, he's a fantasist with zero clue who is deeply entrenched in his incorrect views and won't be swayed - best not to engage directly with him and let the thread die. If he was asking for genuine advice / critique to be debated then, yes, ok, a worthwhile discussion to see where improvements can be made to the bikes he owns etc but to try and come across as someone who thinks he is an expert when he clearly isn't is just trolling.

I'm betting he has no personal experience of racing, let alone where the real speed is at a Cat 1 / Pro level unlike some of us here and so he hasn't got first-hand knowledge of what does or doesn't make real differences when racing and training.

He likes speed, great, hope he enjoys it, but he's never raced 100+miles / 160+km at circa 25mph/40km/h average on lumpy terrain. Nor has he done truly fast TT's and nor has he raced at a high level on a Velodrome. If he had that ability, if he had access to various bikes and coaching staff monitoring his bike fit, positioning, his times, if he had access to tech to see where he could find improvements to his performance etc, he wouldn't be posting images of those ridiculous setups for his road bikes because he would know better.

If he wants a more general peer review of his setup, he ought to submit his bike and views to the GCN app in the Hack vs Bodge section or even just the bike section so we can all have a laugh at the comments. Alternatively, he can stop dicking about with daft theory and go and get a proper bike fit and truly learn what changes he can make to both himself and bike for greater speed over the route he wants gains on.


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Old 07-19-22, 11:44 PM
  #673  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Yep. TicTac’s bike is not even close to that TT setup. The fact that he thinks it is speaks volumes to how little he understands it.
TT bikes have steep STAs. TicTac has done exactly the opposite and shoved his saddle all the way back on a setback seat post.
And why would one even post a TT race pic in a thread on non-competitive riding? Does he think those guys ride bikes like that when they are not racing or training?
I used to use a forward offset saddle

My Ride by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
and forward offset bars
220mm stem by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
to, as far as possible, put myself in more of time trial bike position with as far as possible a steep effective seat tube angle (STA). Since I ride on roads with cars, I wanted to use road bike bars, rather than time trial bike bars, for their superior braking and maneuverability.

These days as you say, my set up is set backwards. This was mainly because I got old and my glutes got weak and also because I realised how to get low on a rearwardly offset road bike.

In either case I am aiming to
1) reduce the frontal area of my body which I believe makes the greatest contribution to being aerodynamic.
2) "Anything but KOPs" because I find it makes it easier to spin if you are tiptoe pushing back at the end of the stroke, in a time trial position, or heel-down pushing forwards, in my current "French"/ "ankling" style of road bike riding.

I do this, though I never compete (other than in the past on Strava), because I find it exhilarating and motivating to go fast, which helps keeps my weight down, so far (though I think I'll get fat again one day, alas. Fight fight against the growing of the flab!).

I am not quite sure how Robbie is pedaling but my position is now fairly similar to that recommended to road-bike time-trialists by John Cobb, advisor to LeMond and Armstrong, and I believe the main point is getting down low, as was also encouraged by late 20th century road bikes, because catching the wind on your chest will make a lot more negative difference than the positive differences provided by internal cables and behind the frame brakes and all those "innovations" of the upright and therefore non-aero, "aero road bikes" of the past two decades, which I still believe to be cobblers.

Do you sell them?

Tim

Timothy Takemoto (timtak)

Last edited by timtak; 07-20-22 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 07-20-22, 05:14 AM
  #674  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I used to use a forward offset saddle

My Ride by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
and forward offset bars
220mm stem by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
to, as far as possible, put myself in more of time trial bike position with as far as possible a steep effective blah de blahhblahhblaah bloviate bloviate blah blah

Not only is this wayyyyyyyy off topic, that is the stupidest setup I have ever seen. Looks great if your goal is castrating yourself.

Just stop already.
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Old 07-20-22, 05:30 AM
  #675  
koala logs
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Originally Posted by timtak
I used to use a forward offset saddle
to, as far as possible, put myself in more of time trial bike position with as far as possible a steep effective seat tube angle (STA). Since I ride on roads with cars, I wanted to use road bike bars, rather than time trial bike bars, for their superior braking and maneuverability.

These days as you say, my set up is set backwards. This was mainly because I got old and my glutes got weak and also because I realised how to get low on a rearwardly offset road bike.

In either case I am aiming to
1) reduce the frontal area of my body which I believe makes the greatest contribution to being aerodynamic.
2) "Anything but KOPs" because I find it makes it easier to spin if you are tiptoe pushing back at the end of the stroke, in a time trial position, or heel-down pushing forwards, in my current "French"/ "ankling" style of road bike riding.
If you've been riding in that position for some time now to "train" your glutes, you should try going back to KOPS.

If you formed good enough muscle memory for the technique, you'll be able to keep doing it even if you go back to KOPS. You're simply changing your body pitch when you're adjusting fore and aft saddle position and tilt, just like riding on a flat road and then going downhill.

My pedaling technique also favors glute engagement but because I actually have strong and big glutes compared to my quads. Seems I've been born with big glutes so why not use it right?

So I did exactly as you did to "train" glute engagement by moving the saddle to the back. After a year or so, It has become 2nd nature and achieved full control of glutes during pedaling. As I have come to experience eventually, I'm having saddle soreness in longer rides and finding myself sitting in the wider part of the saddle to help relieve discomfort. But the position cause me to over-reach and overextend my legs on the downstroke.

That forced me to adjust the saddle forward into KOPs so I'm not over reaching when sitting in the wide part. It came as a nice surprise, I retained the pedaling technique. Glute engagement was fully maintained.
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