beabear444

Hello:
I'm a newbe. Wanted to say hi to all first.

I have a question about the 86 Nishiki Tri A tubing. Im aware that it is listed as Tange 1 on the bike as well as referenced in many other sources as such. I had previously assumed that means full Tange 1 frame and fork. However, when viewing what is said to be the 86 catalog online, in the specs page under "frame", I noticed that the manufacture lists it as "Tange 1 CR-MO double butted, W #2 DT and TT, #1 others".

Im assuming this would make the frame a combo of Tange 1 and 2? Im assuming the only main triangle tubing thats #1 would be the seat tube (ST) and the referenced "#1 others" would be the rear chain and seat stays as well as the fork?

Im not allowed to post URLs because Im new but a quick search under 86 Nishiki catalog will yield an image of the specs page of that catalog.

Thx
B

jdawginsc 

I have an 87 Bumblebee Kuwahara made Tri-A. Everything is Tange #1 except the down tube and the top tube where they designed it to be a little stiffer.

You should find your way to the C and V forums down the page a bit. Great folks and bikes!

Bumblebeena says hello.

beabear444

Thx for sharing. Your bumble bee is the same as the bike I have my eye on. Just trying to figure out the details. How do you find that it rides compared to other high end steel, ie, Columbus SL, SLX or Reynolds 531 etc.

So from your knowledge the 86 catalog is correct in that the DT and TT is Tange 2 which would be slightly thicker walls (.9mm x 6mm vs No 1 at .8mm x .5mm) which would make it a bit stiffer. Yet there is a slight weight penalty adding in #2.

So your understanding is that the rear end is all Tange 1 also? Im going to assume its all straight gauge along with the fork or are those areas DB also?

thx
B

jdawginsc 

I don't think the stays and fork blades are double butted in any tube set, so probably straight gauge. I am a Columbus guy, so I tend to compare all to SL. I love Bumblebeena. It is a neutral ride slightly on the responsive side rather than the sluggish side. Not quick-twitch. It is comfortable enough, which is probably due to the geometry more than the tubing. The tubing overall is good quality, just not Columbus which I find has a "spring" that is not backed up with data. You will definitely not be disappointed.

You will not notice it being sluggish at all. Honestly, Bumblebeena entered my heart pretty quickly, considering I bought her for $40 for the Klunker Challenge last year.

As for the stays/fork blades being Tange 1, I almost guarantee they were. I really do believe they specified the 1 for the comfort and the 2s for the stiffness. This was a high midrange bike, not entry level (it was spec'ed with 600EX, which was one click from Dura Ace)

beabear444

Hey thanks for you insight. Curious, when you say "spring" does that refer to the flexiness of the frame acting like a spring under shock? I've heard that term to describe good steel but I think it can be highly subjective. Another term I find interesting is "planing" to describe a ride quality of steel. I have two SL bikes, one a blue Basso Gap (which I notice you have), not sure of the year, and a Batavus Professional. I will have to pay more attention to the spring characteristics.

Being a Japanese bike fan of sorts I also find the Fuji framing interesting. Whats you knowledge on Fuji's Ishiwata tubing?
Been doing some research but havnt found much other then the basics. Hope you don't mind me curiosity and inquistiveness. : ) Thanks again for your insight and time.

B

T-Mar

Tange did not offer Champion #1 or Champion #2, seat stays, chain stays or fork blades. Depending on the year, there were some cross-section options available but #1 through #5 had the same options. There were no lighter gauge stays or blades, unless you stepped up to Champion Pro (later replaced by heat treated Prestige). For these tubesets, all the fork blade options used 1.0mm, seamless, CrMo, steel and all the stay options used 0.8mmseaml;ess, CrMo, steel. That's why, when you look at a #1 through #5 frameset (that uses the complete tubeset and not something mixed and matched), the fork decals are always red and have no numerical designation.

In fact, if it were from the early 1980s, there would be no difference in the seat tube either. Prior to the late 1980s, Tange #1, #2 and #3, all used the exact same seat tube. In the late 1980s, when Prestige was introduced, they repurposed the heavier of the two Pro seat tube options as a #1 seat tube.

I've got a pretty good grasp on most of the Fuji tubesets.

beabear444

Thx T Mar! Nice to meet you. Your somewhat of a legend on this forum. I'm honored.
I like many others have become quite the Japanese vintage bike fan.

My question about Fuji steel is this.

As you know Fuji used their somewhat mysterious DB 331 from the mid 70s to about 1982 on their top tier bikes when in
83 they switched over to quad butted 9658. Most references I see to this later material is that it was in fact Ishiwata 019E tubing. This is info found online as well as in Bevington's famous book Japanese Steel. Here's where it gets interesting. It would seem the .9.6.5.8 is reference to the tubes thickness. However, 019E's quad butted was .8.5.4.8. However, Ishiwata's EXO quad butted was 9658. Is it possible some have got this wrong and in fact the tubing was the slightly thicker and heavier EWO and not the 019e? Hard to imagine Bevington would have got that wrong.

Also there is not much info I can find on what exactly the Fuji's 331 was. Was it in fact early 019 or 022? It is speculated it was Ishiwata tubing given Fuji's long time relationship with him. Whats your understanding of these tube sets?

Thx
B

beabear444

Solving the mystery of Fuji QB 9658 tubing. Most references state it's Ishiwata 019E. I have my doubts.

After doing more research it appears Ishiwata EXO came in at least to flavors, L and M.
EXO L QB tube thickness is 08/05/04/07 while EXO M as 09/06/05/08 which would make it the most likely candidate for Fuji's
proprietary 9658 tubing used post 1982 on their top tier bikes.

Mystery number 2. What was Fuji's 331 tubing? Ishiwata? Which set?

What are your thoughts?

TugaDude

Some good info here.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...31-tubing.html

beabear444

Thx Tagadude!

Still a mystery on 331. The last poster, Unworthy1, mentioned that some time ago TMar speculated that 331 was Ishiwata tubing since they used their tubing for years. That makes sense to me since Fuji did not make their own frame sets, tubing. It's most likely rebranded 022. I doubt its 019 but it could be. Im about to weight my 1980 Fuji S-12 LTD with 331 stripped. It may give a clue. Wish we had some imput from someone that worked for Fuji back in the day.

T-Mar

The Fuji triple and quad butted tubeset line up with specific Ishiwata tubesets. The three or four numerals in the tubeset designation refer the wall thickness ( in 1/10ths of a millimetres) of the corresponding EX and EXO tubesets in Ishiwata's Exactus series. Fuji VALite corresponds to Ishiwata Magny.

However the correlation is not so obvious for the earlier Fuji double butted and plain gauge tubesets using three numerals. Fuji started using these three numeral designations circa 1977. The original intent appears to have simply been a marketing attempt to piggyback on the sucess of Reynolds 531, as all the designations rhymed with 531. They were:

Fuji 331: double butted CrMo
Fuji 441: (plain gauge) CrMo
Fuji 661: (plain gauge) hi-tensile
Fuji 881: double butted hi-tensile

Regarding Fuji 331, it was used on several models within any year. For instance, in 1979 it was used on six models, from the top of the line Professional, down to the S-12-S. That's a very broad range for a single tubeset, even if some of the cases were tretubi applications. Also, we've had a fair range of seat post sizes reported for Fuji 331 frames. Consequently, I suspect that Fuji 331 may have been a generic designation covering multiple gauges and that it simply indicates double butted CrMo. Since we're talking about possible variation between models and years, the best approach is to reverse engineer the tubeset based on a proper fitting seat post.

Fuji 331 is almost certianly an Ishiwata product. As of 1969, Japanese component manufacturers were divided into two trade associations, JBM and JEX. JBM included, among others, Shimano and Tange, while JEX members included Sugino, Dia-Compe and Sugino, While I've found no evidence of Ishiwata being part of JEX, Fuji was loyal to the JEX component manufacturers, during the Fuji 331 era. Consequently, it seems unlikly that Fuji would have gone with Tange, who was a member of the rival JBM group. Also, when fork steering tubes from the Fuji 331 era are examined, they typically have the Ishiwata logo, increasing the probability of the main tubes also being Ishiwata.

beabear444

Thx T -Mar! Where do you get you wealth of information? Its amazing. You must have done a lot of research.
I find it interesting that Bevington in his book Japanese Steel refers to Fuji 9658 tubing as being Ishiwata 019e when it appears it is QB EXO M which is a different tubing.

Sorry I'm new to this setup. By clicking on "reply" do I visit the forum again? I may have been hitting "quick reply" by mistake.

Yes, I also suspected 331 was Ishiwata. It seems Fuji was very secretive about this stuff. I have an 1981 Fuji S-12 LTD.
My seat post internal diameter is 26.8. I threw the frame (with no fork) up on the scale and newly painted it weighs in at approx 2160g. Fork is an additional wopping 855g. What would that imply about the type and/ or thickness of the tubing? Catalog lists the total bikes weight at 25lbs and the fork is Hi-ten steel so this is no lightweight Thoroughbred. Could this 331 be Ishiwata 022 or 024?

Thx again.

T-Mar

If Fuji had based a tubeset around 019E, it would have beencalled Fuji 8547. It was almost idenetical to EXO-L, but was seamless, used a higher strength alloy and thinner gauge seat stays which resulted in a 20g weight reduction. Now, there was an 022E set which used those wall thickness meausrments but it wasn't introduced until long after Fuji 331 was discontinued.

Typically, 024 would use a 27.0mm post, while 022 would use 27.2mm. The Ishiwata tubeset that would typically use a 26.8mm post is 025. Ironically, 025 used a CrMo main triangle with hi-tensile stays and forks. Sound familiar? However, the top and seat tubes were plain gauge CrMo, while only the down tube was double butted CrMo.Still, that would be enough to permit a CrMo double butted tubing decal. Of course, it's always possible that Fuji spec'd a custom set or did some mixing and matching of tubesets. A definitive answe would require Fuji documention, some sophisticated (and expensive) testing or destructtive testing. Weight rreally doesn't help much, as there can be quite a bit of variation due to theselected lugs, BB shell and other fittings.

Actually, there's not much research involved. It's primarily a case of sometimes doublechecking some facts. I started in the retail side of the bicycle business during the early 1970s bicycle boom as mechanic before graduating to shop manager. I was also a competitive cyclist and certified cycling coach, so that after I left the industry to become a Mechanical & Quality Engineer, I was still abreast of develpoments in the industry and was still in contact with those in the industry. Basically, I was in or on the fringe of the industry for over 40 years and my natural interest in cycling made it easy to keep abreast of developments.

beabear444

Again thx for you wealth of info T Mar. Much appreciated.

So it looks like I have Ishiwata 025 tubing on my S-12-S and I only get one tube DB. : (
Those guys at Fuji were kinda tricky wernt they. : ) Marketing tricks.
Explains why it is beefy. But Im looking forward to seeing how it rides. Some of this heavier gauged bikes Ive ridden did ride quite nice, just wouldnt go pounding up any steep hills with them.

Im keeping my eye out for a higher end model though. Would be nice to try the 9658 full frame. They dont pop up very often and when they do they are $$$$

Thx again and I will no doubt see you back in the forums again to continue my education.: )

B