robow

Just a little of enlightenment from this past week of touring down in hilly Arkansas. One of the riders in the group was a trim woman who was bike packing with a gravel bike with wider knobby tires. I was using a standard 4 bag approach with more narrow smooth rubber. On several descents, with neither of us pedaling, she continued to pull away from me on the downhills at a rather surprising pace. Now my friend who was with us also pulled away from me but that was nothing new considering he is much taller and heavier than I am and he carries considerably more gear. But I'm sure I had at least 60 pounds on her between my greater weight and additional gear and yet there she coasted away from me along with my heavier friend. This continued even when I went down into a more aero tuck to avoid the wind resistance. It was hard for me to believe but her decreased wind resistance in the low to mid 20's mph was very real. Over the course of a day, even at 14-15 mph, I'm sure it adds up. I can't really attribute her increased speed to anything more than how she packed but then maybe I'm missing something.

seedsbelize 

BlarneyHammer

Most of the time, aerodynamics plays a much larger role than weight. CyclingAbout did an excellent study on the subject.
More and more, I think about how much space something takes up more than I think about its weight.

alan s 

fietsbob

Zziper Fairing in front of the handlebars ?

MarcusT

Unfortunately, that's the name of the game. Wind resistance will play a large part of cycling and can be affected by many things, like hand position, foot position and even the angle you keep you head. So, using panniers will affect your aerodynamics in a large part. For most of us, it's the trade off for having all that gear. For a tour of a few days, I could handle a capacity of 25 liters, but for longer self supported trips, 60 liters is the minimum for me.

I've seen vlogs of people doing long distance tours with bike packing gear, carrying a tent, sleeping bag, mattress, drone, lap top and cooking gear. I cannot see how they do it.

djb

It's very clear to me how this factors into play, but as Marcus mentions about minimalist packing, you get into a number of important factors:

how one can put up with very little stuff, few clothes changes or quite simply, the level of comfort or discomfort that works for you (cold, rain, having a pillow etc)

cost-- super light, super compact stuff generally costs a lot more money

which leads us to--a lot of us already have x and y doohickies, so we use our stuff that we couldn't fit into backpacking bags anyway

which also touches on panniers, a lot of us have panniers, so would have to buy a whole new set of bikepacking bags, so more money.

so for me, it's a question of money, combined with not being 25 anymore and not caring or thinking of creature comforts and stuff-- but yes, it would be neat to have new lighter stuff, and a narrower footprint of air resistance clearly has an advantage.

I have a riding friend who outweghs me by about 60lbs and it's surprising how I pull past him on hills, and I think the factor here is partly aero AND the tires, he uses stiff clunky tires vs my more supple ones.

anyway, very interesting observation on your part.

and yes, I'm sure it adds up a lot over a day, but then us slight riders just aren't as strong also, so it probably balances out to an extent.

Tourist in MSN

I have spent a couple days really suffering down in a granny gear on flat and level ground pushing into gale force winds for hours and making minimal headway with a four pannier setup. But I really do not want to deprive myself of a lot of the campsite things that I find useful. I am going to stick with a four pannier setup.

And, I am now retired, thus I have more time. My last couple tours, I sat around a campsite on some of the really windy days because my schedule is not as tight as it was back when I was working and only had a five day vacation to accomplish a tour. I factor extra days into my trips, thus I can take a day off for weather now and then.

I also get nervous about really windy days, several years ago I was biking on a very windy day (not a bike tour, exercise ride 20 miles from home) and the wind blew down a tree right in front of me. I was fortunate that when I hit it, I hit it with my bike, if I got to the tree a split second sooner I would have gone head first into the tree or perhaps hit it with my chest. But not too lucky, as it meant two shoulder surgeries and three years of PT. So, days with gale force winds make me nervous for safety reasons.

I suspect that most people that do bikepacking are not doing it for aerodynamics, they are doing it because they want a lighter more responsive bike. And they are willing to give up some of the campsite amenities that I enjoy. For them the aerodynamics in a headwind is just one more minor plus to their setup.

revcp 

Reminds me of two experiences.

First there have been a few times on canoe trips when we've been windbound. I've experienced it only three or four times out of hundreds of days, but those were times when it was so windy you just couldn't hold the canoe in place on the water and load it with packs, let along actually paddle out into angry waves. This summer's bike tour will be going through Kansas. I went to college in Kansas, so we've built in a few days to be windbound.

The other, again about canoeing. We (the same friend I'm touring with this summer) were heading south on the "Memory Lane Portages," a set of three grueling portages in Ontario's Quetico Provincial Park. A violent storm whipped up during the middle portage. As I was portaging the canoe, a large birch tree, probably 20 inches in diameter, went down about 20 feet from me, parallel to the portage trail. It was quite a shock. I was thankful it fell alongside me instead of on top of me.

Tourist in MSN

Yup, been there, done that. But most of my canoeing was on American side, not Canadian side where you are going. Been windbound on Alton, Brule, Saganaga, Knife, Lac La Croix. I knew someone that was related to someone that flipped the boat on Saganaga in the wind, died of hypothermia.

Sunset photo taken on Seagull Lake on Oct 9, 2015, reduced the photo for posting but otherwise no post processing was done. This is the most colorful sunset I have ever seen.



Sorry for being off topic, but I really like the BWCA.

djb

Like Tourist, I've had some days with side/head winds that were just a slog, granny gear stuff fighting to be able to go 10kph tops and or to stay on the road and or not be blown into the path of all the trucks going by---but I pretty much agree with Tourists take on it, that bikepacking's appeal is a lighter, more responsive bike vs more comforts/options of stuff with 4 panniers.

so you pick your poison doncha?

re near misses from wind stuff--in town not far from my house I was riding past a new building going up when a big wind storm was going on. All of a sudden about 25 ft behind me came crashing down a 4x8 sheet of plywood that got blown down from somewhere up on the partially built 4 or 5 storey....one of those times where if I had left the house a few seconds later that day, I could have been at that spot.....just plain dumb luck.

revcp 

Off topic? If people don't want to read they can skip. Outdoor travel translates from one kind to another.

We rescued a couple guys on Brule one day a few years ago. Most everyone was holed up at campsites or piled up on shore, but we were doing fine hopping from lee side of island to lee side of island. At one point we looked out and saw a flipped canoe and two heads. It was two teen aged boys with a church group. All their gear was gone and one of the boys was very overweight and fading quickly. We emptied their canoe, hauled the other one into it and on the third attempt got the one in who was not doing well. He was hypothermic enough that he couldn't help, and if the third attempt had not succeeded, we we're going to lash his wrists to the gunwale.

We towed their canoe to where the remainder of their group had blown ashore. I told one of the adult leaders to take the kid into the woods, strip him down, get him in dry clothes and give him water and food. I tasked another with starting a fire. They tried to laugh it off. I'm a pastor and in a "former life" was a canoe guide. I explained pretty directly that this was very serious and they were knuckleheads. There was no doubt in my mind that boy would have died if we hadn't happened along.

So, we paddled to our take out and waited for the other two members of our own group who had blown ashore and were waiting out the wind. Several hours later the church group paddled in. They had started their five day trip that morning, but they were done and headed home.

djb

I grew up doing flat and river trips with my dad, so can relate to both your stories. Personally never had experienced any really scary wind stuff, well a bit , but probably because my dad and the canoe club members that we did trips with, were experienced enough to respect conditions and to know not to be out when it was too dangerous.

just think though Revcp, how the ripple effects of your actions have gone along throughout the years for all those involved--or rather, how you most likely stopped some horrible ripples that would have torn apart peoples lives that would still be rippling out to this day for the parents and loved ones of that teenager, not to mention those present.
I am not religious, but thank God you were there that day.

It's scary how often folks get into situations where they really are unaware of the potential dangers, even worse when adults are in charge of young adults like this.
thanks for sharing that sobering story

ps, and this connects to how doing canoe trips really taught me about what to take, and that balance of what to take, enough to cover unforeseen things, but not too much so that portages and whatnot are like a Death March.

thumpism 

Aero panniers, anyone? These are by AngleTech but Specialized made the Tailwinds several decades ago.

LeeG

Rick

This is as arrow as I get.

boomhauer

I have no interest in going fast.
Passing semi's down hill, in the left lane (in my youth) reminded me if I hit a bit of road debris..... my tour was over.
What's the hurry, really?

Tourist in MSN

Agree.

Happy Feet

It's more aero but minimalistic

CraigMBA

To OP: its not in your head.

I have seen a 30 watt savings between riding on the hoods and the drops, if I had power on the touring bike I could quantify what the panniers do but you get the drift. I dunno what it would be like in a headwind other than worse.

Aero matters on a bike anywhere over 13mph, in case of a cycling tourist or an rider doing endurance events, any watts not consumed mean calories you don't have to refuel. If you are doing long days, that can make a big difference.

Ultimately, everyone is going to do what it takes to be more comfortable. If riding with four panniers makes you conforable, I'd seriously consider putting on whatever bars are most confortable for you, and ignore the drops unless those are your choice.

alan s 

Tourist in MSN

Was that Seven Mile bridge? Looks like you are at the raised section for ship traffic to cross below.

MixedRider

I have also found that smoothness of drivetrain (bearings, brake rub, wheel true, etc...) make a difference as well. I had an older bike with no-name wheel/hub/crank combo from an interweb store I assembled and maintained myself. constantly trueing wheel, adjusting brake caliper, adjusting chain line (singlespeed with horizontal dropouts) and toured on that for years with the wife. She always was able to coast downhill faster than me. Then, I splurged and got my "dream tourer" from a local bike shop. (Same panniers, rack setup, gearing, etc), but now I am faster than her coasting down hills.
So I think there are a number of reasons why someone goes faster downhill. So unless it really bugs you, I would not worry about it too much.

djb

Ive come to think that hubs can make a diff also, although I suspect its probably a matter of numerous factors that come into play.
I used to do a supported ride every summer, and there were often the same people doing it every year (total riders 1500 about) and I used to see this very tall lady roadie, very friendly, who rode with pretty serious roadie types. Numerous times we happened to be going down hills at the same time, and she would always pull away from me--I'm sure it was a combo of my having a small pannier on, my bike has cantis, my helmet has a visor and a mirror on it, and she probably weighs more than me. I still would wonder though at how much she would pull ahead of me over 40 , 50kph, and while I am certain the factors I mentioned are part of it, I suspect also that her really nice road bike has hubs that roll easier may play a small part too.

over the years, in a food line or whatever, we would joke about this and then she would remember who I was (you see someone only in bike clothing , helmet and glasses, you often dont recognize them in civvies)

I have noticed on my bikes, as someone who regreases my ball bearing hubs, that when there is a ton of grease in at first, and or I have slightly overtightened the cones, there is a difference---all anecdotal as Ive never had anything to measure these observations, but it certainly does seem that way.

alan s