Trakhak

I imagine that I might have had one or two bikes with no toe overlap during the last 60 years of riding racing bikes, but if so, I never noticed. In other words, toe overlap has always been a nonissue for me.

That said, since there are people for whom toe overlap is undesirable (and fair enough), if it were up to me, I'd require bike manufacturers to specify the front center measurement for the various sizes of each of their bike models and specify which (if any) of those bikes are likely to exhibit toe overlap.

Iride01 

What some might call twitchy, others of us might call more maneuverable or sporty handling.

My longer wheelbase '91 Schwinn Paramount was great for a steady comfortable ride when solo or when in very small groups. But when in large groups and some of those people doing unexpected things, I really appreciate the shorter wheel base of my Tarmac that lets it respond quicker to avoid sudden hazards that come up.

Kapusta

It should also be noted that there are varying degrees of overlap. If the overlap is very small, then it will only interfere when your crank/foot is in a pretty specific position. The more overlap there is, the greater range of positions that will give you interference.

I think there is something to the comment someone made earlier about it being harder to deal with when it is infrequently encountered. If someone rides bikes of a size that overlap is uncommon, then the few times they encounter it, it could be an issue. On the other hand, if you are like me and deal with it all the time, you just adapt and it is a non-issue.

Pratt

I understand that pros have a technique for detecting tarsal disproportionality on bicycles; they call it a "test ride."
On a serious note, my Bruce Gordon touring bike has it and it always puzzled me since I expected a longer wheelbase would avoid that. The bike is very stable at low speeds, high speeds, loaded, and unloaded. I have fallen many times, but never because of toe overlap.

63rickert

Fredo has it right. Getting an adequate front-center to avoid overlap is not a frame design issue at all until you want fenders and 35mm tires on a 50cm frame. (Talking level top tube sizes here. If you want a sloping frame that actually makes it all easier.) And yes, you can get that front-center with no compromise to handling.

If every bike you have ever owned has overlap that would be because you are riding factory production bikes designed by clerks. Small size frames are also low sales volume frames. They really don’t care if you have the same problem with their bike you had with the competitors bike.

Simple stuff. Everyone uses shallower head angles on the small frames. To make the bike ride properly with that shallow angle then fork rake must be increased. Yes, long rake forks make a shallow head angle ride properly, they don’t make it ride soft. No large manufacturer is willing to spend the money to make a range of fork rakes when it is so much easier to use the same fork on every frame. That longer rake also moves the wheel away from toes.

Simple stuff. If the top tube has to be longer so what? Use a larger diameter and therefore stiffer top tube. This is not 1964 when all top tubes had to be 1”. No need to risk speed wobble. Come to think of it Claud Butler used oversized top tubes back in the 1940s.

Simple stuff. People who ride small frames have shorter legs than people who ride big frames. Give them shorter cranks. Again, no manufacturer will spend to do this. Or they tell you 165 is short. It is not.

Simple stuff. Higher bottom bracket brings the crank closer to the front wheel. Why does everyone believe the opposite? Because you have been sold confusion, and I mean sold, because confused customers buy the retail objects the makers want to push on you.

Bikes with 700c wheels have been made without toe overlap in a full range of sizes since forever. They have never been all that common. That you have not had one does not mean the creature cannot exist. They do exist. What has been made once can be made again.

Until factories decide to be serious about small frames your choices are suffer, get a custom, find something old that was done right. Any custom builder who can’t handle something so simple is a builder you don’t want anyway. In this house we ride old bikes. The wife is 5’3” in her old age. Her 1973 51cm Colnago rides like a Colnago. With 29mm tire and original 165 cranks she had over a centimeter of toe clearance. A 32 would fit in front but too close to crown to look right. Oh, she has unusually large feet (size 9) for someone her height and that doesn’t matter either. If Ernesto could do it right in 1973 there is no excuse in current era.

If everyone believes it is non-possible then there is no pressure on manufacturers to do the job properly. And that is why they sell nonsense about frame design.

zandoval 

Toe Clearance Solved for an older bike...

I had trouble with my 80s UNIVEGA on toe clearance. I use large wide toe cages for my big feet and on making sharp turns my front wheel just did not give me the clearance I needed. No biggie but I replaced my UNIVEGA fork with a MOTOBECANE fork from the early 80s. WOW! what a difference! Not only did I get a more comfortable ride but it solved my toe clearance problem. Here's a pic I clipped from the net to show how much clearance an old fork can have.

Kapusta

Why would I buy a custom frame to address something that is a total non-issue?

Honestly, I would rather bike designers don’t go messing with the front end geo on my bikes to make up for other peoples’ lack of handing skills.

Let those people buy the customs.

qwaalodge

Max out your cleat adjustment as close to the toes as possible and adjust saddle height to compensate cleat adjustment - riders who pedal toes down might have to increase saddle height, those who pedal heels down might have to reduce saddle height.

I made such adjustment few months ago, got used to it and wasn't bad at all. Performance and comfort and is not affected as soon as I got used to it.

rossiny

I agree 100 %. 100, my road/race bike i bought new in 1984 was a Rossin Record all super record had like 1/2 inch of clearance. If Rossin could do it correctly why can't it be done now. Why have a chance of that one time your riding in thd city , tight turn , your foot jambs, and down you go.. I think its a defect from defective engineering , and not specifically designing the bike correctly for each frame size... non of my bikes have toe overlap. My race bike , a Basso titanium clears by about 1/2 inch . It reminds me of my old Rossin. Should have kept that one.
ps . On a side note if you got overlap on a touring bike, I really think its a defective. Your on off , and city riding or trail riding . You can easily have turning where you jamb your foot. I gave away a mint Schwinn Voyageur, made in Japan that had huge overlap. I later found a minty Schwinn Voyageur, green, 1980 , made in Japan. It has great clearance. I'm currently tuning it up and curios how it rides. In all these comments it seems some are trying to deny an obvious design flaw, by saying it a "non issue ". Well non -issue , until you turn a certain way and your foot jambs in the front wheel.!!
A track bike would be the only time that it will never come into play. Your designing a bike to go as fast as possible and handle on a "track".....

freetors

To be honest, I think even the claims of needing fast, responsive handling on a bike for pace line riding or racing are dubious at best. It's a bicycle, not a MotoGP bike.

ThermionicScott 

One of a few reasons I enjoy my 650B-converted Bianchi. 38mm tires and fenders in the space that 700x25C tires once occupied, so toe overlap is not worse than it was originally. This just makes everything nicer when navigating dense crowds of riders and unpredictable foot traffic at stops in Paris-Brest-Paris or RAGBRAI.

It's funny -- usually improvements to make products more user-friendly are applauded, but they are resisted every time in the bicycle world. "I learned how to put up with it -- why should you have it any easier?"

cyclezen

LOL!
One reason... at 2:00 min.
in a very small pack, no less.
I'd wanted to be one of the riders who made it around....
bike handling is a myriad of things - one is a bike which gives you a chance...
seen this in quite a few non-racing rides as well.
but then, this never happens in Cat 2, 1, Pro... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri

Kedosto

Wow. Reading through this thread really highlights those who do, and do not understand bicycle frame design. Comical.

79pmooney

Not true for the sprinters. Those are the guys who ride really slowly. Like so slow that they have in place a rule that you are disqualified if you back up.

urbanknight

Funny you should say that, because the only time I ever fell because of toe overlap was on a track bike. With the fixed gear, you can't ratchet. Granted, I was being stupid and paying attention to my teammate who was qualifying while I was cooling down on the apron, veered too close to the grass and steered back, catching my toe which could only continue moving forward or come to a complete stop.

prj71

I don't think you need to go custom. The simplest way to avoid toe overlap look at the geometry and make the decision from there. A bike with the top tube a bit longer and the seat tube a bit steeper, creates more space between the front wheel and the crankset without changing the way the bike handles . And if you feel too stretched out...just put on a shorter stem.

Kapusta

So, ride a size too large to avoid a non-problem?

No.

Fwiw, the road/gravel bike I ride already has a steeper STA, slacker HA, and more fork offset due to the small size.

My top tube is long enougj that I run a 60-70mm stem and I still have toe over lap.

I could not care in the slightest. There is no problem to solve, here.

PeteHski

As far as frame geometry is concerned "Front Centre" is the primary measurement you are looking for. Indirect measurements that affect Front Centre are Head Angle, Fork Offset and Reach.

So the worst case scenario is a small frame (short Reach) with a steep Head Angle and low Fork Offset. Front Centre is a function of these 3 parameters. The longer it is, the less likely you are to get toe overlap.

Crank length, cleat position and shoe size will also make a difference. So long cranks, big feet and cleats set further back all make toe overlap more likely for a given frame.

Kapusta

Can people really not accept that for some folks toe overlap is simply a non-issue?

I have bikes with it and bikes without it. It makes ZERO difference to me.

PeteHski

A long wheelbase can be the result of long chain stays (long Rear Centre), so a bike could still have a relatively long wheelbase and a short front end with toe overlap.

79pmooney

The issue here is that we have two schools of people. Those for whom toe overlap doesn't matter and those for whom it does. They'll never see eye to eye.
I ride bikes with and without overlap. On some it matters, others it doesn't. Fix gears for city riding and around pedestrians, it can matter a lot because if that overlap happens at slow speed, I go over or have to make an unplanned course adjustment fast. Even on geared bikes, in those situations, overlap is sometimes fatal to fenders. Same bikes at speed in the country (or in a race - previous life) that overlap doesn't matter at all.

I also know that any desired handling can be achieved without overlap and without loss of optimum fit. Such a bike may, however, not appeal as the best for a mass market compromise. What we could all benefit from is a world with more choices of bike sizes and geometries and with better spec sheets so we can make informed choices. Also more custom builders; perhaps focusing on having easily modified frame geometries who can provide custom fit at less than exorbitant prices. (This isn't really completely far fetched. In this country we used to have framebuilders in all cities of any size. In little Dayton, Ohio early last century there was a shop run by brothers that made bikes basically from scratch. (They would have stayed forgotten as most were except they dabbled in airplanes.)

Camilo

OR... As many have already said, maybe it's exactly the geometry you want in terms of fit and handling and toe overlap is totally a non issue, that a bike that was designed to eliminate it would be a faulty design?

ThermionicScott 

You've posted "It's a non-issue for me" about 11 times so far in this thread. I think we believe you on that. How many more times do you think it'll take to make it true for everyone else?

Kapusta

Oh, come on

I am not saying it is true for everyone else. But some folks are insisting that it is true for nobody (or those that think it is have drank some marketing Koolaid)

ThermionicScott 

What I think is true for everyone, is that bikes should be available in a variety of geometries so that we don't keep having these threads where people try to invalidate each other's experience or preferences. Want a bike with a short wheelbase and can handle TCO? Great, you can have that! Want a bike that obviates TCO by having some combination of slacker HTA/more fork rake and possibly smaller wheels, and are okay with different handling? You can have that too!

Doesn't seem like the topic needs to be so contentious, IMO.