Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Something You "Take The Lane" Folks Might Enjoy

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Something You "Take The Lane" Folks Might Enjoy

Old 05-26-23, 06:50 PM
  #1  
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
Thread Starter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491

Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times in 210 Posts
Something You "Take The Lane" Folks Might Enjoy

Breaking in my new (4-days old) Surly Lowside in my urban landscape (NOLA) i came across this sharrow indicating that bikes should take the lane. Never seen any exactly like this before. Royal Street just East of the French Quarter.

Enjoy


JoeyBike is offline  
Likes For JoeyBike:
Old 05-26-23, 07:12 PM
  #2  
Chuck M 
Happy With My Bikes
 
Chuck M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2,185

Bikes: Hi-Ten bike boomers, a Trek Domane and some projects

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 867 Post(s)
Liked 2,277 Times in 1,099 Posts
My town has those save for the green highlight. We also have, and I have seen in other towns as well, signage that states cyclists have the right to the whole lane. In situations like this, I keep to the right, but will signal when I'm preparing to turn left and will move into the lane if it is clear.
__________________
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels." -- Heinz Stücke

Chuck M is offline  
Old 05-26-23, 07:15 PM
  #3  
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 6,825

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3185 Post(s)
Liked 2,020 Times in 1,158 Posts
The version I have seen in NYC is placed closer to the parked cars on the right.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 05-26-23, 09:23 PM
  #4  
RCMoeur 
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 1,661 Times in 760 Posts
Regarding lateral placement of shared lane markings, this is what the US Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) has to say on the subject:

Guidance:
04 If used in a shared lane with on-street parallel parking, Shared Lane Markings should be placed so that the centers of the markings are at least 11 feet from the face of the curb, or from the edge of the pavement where there is no curb.


05 If used on a street without on-street parking that has an outside travel lane that is less than 14 feet wide, the centers of the Shared Lane Markings should be at least 4 feet from the face of the curb, or from the edge of the pavement where there is no curb.

(Disclosure: I served as chair of the NCUTCD Bicycle Technical Committee from 2002-2017, and am currently under contract to NCUTCD for organizational management services.)
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 05-26-23, 09:35 PM
  #5  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,812
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,015 Times in 570 Posts
We have a few here (also not with the green). I ride where the sharrows are placed. In the pictured case I certainly would to avoid the door zone. Those are short blocks so cars shouldn't really be going faster than bikes anyway.

The sharrows are in the city. My recreational riding is on rural roads near my house. A couple of those in the adjoining county have "bicycles may use full lane" signs that have been there for 25 years or more. A couple of prominent local politicians used to ride those roads with their bike club. Age and infirmity has sidelined them but the old signs remain.
jon c. is offline  
Old 05-26-23, 09:45 PM
  #6  
JW Fas
Cop Magnet
 
JW Fas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 331
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 240 Post(s)
Liked 274 Times in 128 Posts
These sharrows (sans the green paint) are very common on the Kansas side of the KC metro. Motorists still have no clue what they mean.
JW Fas is offline  
Likes For JW Fas:
Old 05-26-23, 11:32 PM
  #7  
AndreyT
Full Member
 
AndreyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: CA
Posts: 495
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 244 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 30 Posts
Not sure why some people keep repeating the nonsense about "motorists having no clue what they mean". Motorists know perfectly well what they mean.

What I do notice though is that not all cyclists fully realize what they mean. And these marking have significant consequences for cyclists, especially in states where traffic laws require cars to enter bike lanes before making a right turn (e.g. California). These marking signify the fact that cars and bicycles share one and only one lane, i.e. (key point!) there's no dedicated bike lane on that street, neither explicitly marked nor implied. Bicyclists have no right to assume that they are travelling in their own lane, and therefore have no right to assume that they have right-of-way over cars making their right turns from a regular lane.

In simple words, on a street with sharrows cars and bicycles are expected to travel in a single file. If a bicyclist tries to squeeze themselves into the gap between a car and curb and subsequently gets right-hooked, it is going to be bicyclist's fault.

On a street without sharrows, in case of a right-hook incident it is the motorist who will be found at fault.

Last edited by AndreyT; 05-26-23 at 11:39 PM.
AndreyT is offline  
Likes For AndreyT:
Old 05-27-23, 07:48 AM
  #8  
Paul Barnard
For The Fun of It
 
Paul Barnard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,843

Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2131 Post(s)
Liked 1,639 Times in 822 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c.
Those are short blocks so cars shouldn't really be going faster than bikes anyway.

.
You would not believe the speed that motorists will carry on some of these inner city streets in NOLA. I don't think NOPD even does traffic enforcement.
Paul Barnard is offline  
Likes For Paul Barnard:
Old 05-27-23, 08:41 AM
  #9  
Inusuit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: SE Wyoming
Posts: 607

Bikes: 1995 Specialized Rockhopper,1989 Specialized Rock Combo, 2013 Specialized Tarmac Elite

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times in 278 Posts
Some streets in Cheyenne have them. I avoid if possible.
Inusuit is offline  
Old 05-27-23, 04:17 PM
  #10  
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
Thread Starter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491

Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times in 210 Posts
Posting this YouTube link here because "taking the lane" is the topic. Coincidentally, my urban cycling capabilities were called out as a hoax on a different thread in A&S (@Leisesturm). Not that I NEED to prove anything to anyone here, it's just FUN to do so. And it's quite flattering to be accused of riding an E-Bike . I pass E-Bikes on the regular and let out a devilish laugh every time.

THIS is how I take the lane on a 35 mph narrow boulevard where getting passed is life threatening, without pi$$!ng off every motorist behind me. Enjoy!

(My GPS with speed is bottom left corner. Sadly the resolution YouTube used has the display impossible to read)


Last edited by JoeyBike; 05-27-23 at 04:31 PM.
JoeyBike is offline  
Likes For JoeyBike:
Old 05-28-23, 07:13 AM
  #11  
Kabuki12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,404
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 863 Post(s)
Liked 2,225 Times in 1,248 Posts
Here , in my area , they have the signs posted(…may take entire lane) and the bike insignia painted in the lane . On my weekly ride, there are two places where I have the option to take the lane and I do it to keep from getting squeezed out. It is only for a few blocks in both locations , and then the designated bike lane reappears.
Kabuki12 is offline  
Likes For Kabuki12:
Old 05-29-23, 05:36 PM
  #12  
daihard 
Just a person on bike
 
daihard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140

Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by AndreyT
Not sure why some people keep repeating the nonsense about "motorists having no clue what they mean". Motorists know perfectly well what they mean.

What I do notice though is that not all cyclists fully realize what they mean. And these marking have significant consequences for cyclists, especially in states where traffic laws require cars to enter bike lanes before making a right turn (e.g. California). These marking signify the fact that cars and bicycles share one and only one lane, i.e. (key point!) there's no dedicated bike lane on that street, neither explicitly marked nor implied. Bicyclists have no right to assume that they are travelling in their own lane, and therefore have no right to assume that they have right-of-way over cars making their right turns from a regular lane.

In simple words, on a street with sharrows cars and bicycles are expected to travel in a single file. If a bicyclist tries to squeeze themselves into the gap between a car and curb and subsequently gets right-hooked, it is going to be bicyclist's fault.

On a street without sharrows, in case of a right-hook incident it is the motorist who will be found at fault.
That's very interesting. Here in WA, I believe sharrows don't change the traffic laws. They are just markings that gives people on bike a false sene of safety.
__________________

The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
daihard is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 05:52 PM
  #13  
mschwett 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,028

Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1272 Post(s)
Liked 1,382 Times in 707 Posts
Originally Posted by AndreyT
...In simple words, on a street with sharrows cars and bicycles are expected to travel in a single file. If a bicyclist tries to squeeze themselves into the gap between a car and curb and subsequently gets right-hooked, it is going to be bicyclist's fault.

On a street without sharrows, in case of a right-hook incident it is the motorist who will be found at fault.
are you sure about that? is lane splitting only explicitly legal for motorcycles, and not bicycles? i see nothing in the filtering rules which reference sharrows. similarly, there is nothing in the section which requires you to ride as right as practicable which talks about sharrows at all:

(a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including, but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes) that make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or edge, subject to the provisions of Section 21656. For purposes of this section, a “substandard width lane” is a lane that is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway of a highway, which highway carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked traffic lanes, may ride as near the left-hand curb or edge of that roadway as practicable.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...2.&lawCode=VEH

i realize that california also has comp negligence, but the law about passing bikes with 3 feet clear also doesn't say "unless they're riding off to the side of a road with a sharrow..." so the fault would be primarily on the driver.
__________________
mschwett is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 07:33 PM
  #14  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,428 Times in 1,343 Posts
Sharrows aren't there for cyclists, who generally either, know the rules or have already decided how and where they'll ride. Sharrows are more about reminding motorists of cyclist rights to the road.

I'm a bit surprised by this example, because it seems that the roadway is wide enough for safe shared-lane passing. On that street, I'd keep left, riding out from the parked cars, and ready and willing to move over if/when necessary to make passing possible.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 07:46 PM
  #15  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,812
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,015 Times in 570 Posts
The need for these somewhat puzzles me:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5451...8192?entry=ttu

The wide 'shoulders' are technically parking spaces, but no one ever parks there. I certainly believe in taking the lane when appropriate, but it never occurred to me to do it here.
jon c. is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 07:58 PM
  #16  
daihard 
Just a person on bike
 
daihard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140

Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
Sharrows aren't there for cyclists, who generally either, know the rules or have already decided how and where they'll ride. Sharrows are more about reminding motorists of cyclist rights to the road.
Sharrows can give people on bike a false sene of safety, though. I know quite a few people, including my own wife, who were led to believe they are legally allowed to ride on roads marked with sharrows and not on roads without, which, at least in WA, is untrue.
__________________

The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
daihard is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 08:07 PM
  #17  
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
Thread Starter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,491

Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1422 Post(s)
Liked 315 Times in 210 Posts
Originally Posted by daihard
Sharrows can give people on bike a false sene of safety, though. I know quite a few people, including my own wife, who were led to believe they are legally allowed to ride on roads marked with sharrows and not on roads without, which, at least in WA, is untrue.
It also misinforms motorists that cyclists are only allowed on roads with sharrows or designate, marked bike lanes.
JoeyBike is offline  
Likes For JoeyBike:
Old 05-29-23, 08:09 PM
  #18  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,428 Times in 1,343 Posts
Originally Posted by daihard
Sharrows can give people on bike a false sene of safety, though. I know quite a few people, including my own wife, who were led to believe they are legally allowed to ride on roads marked with sharrows and not on roads without, which, at least in WA, is untrue.
Agree about the false sense of security, which is among the reasons I'm not a fan of segregated roadways.

However, you offered a poor example in your wife. In this case, she was suffering from a false sense on insecurity, not knowing that just about any road is legal (though not necessarily a smart choice).

That is a second reason I'm not a fan. Separate lanes and sparrows can imply that these are the only places legal for bikes. Not so much of a problem for cyclists who tend to sort it out fast enough, but a big problem when it reinforces their ideas that bikes don't belong on shared roads, unless specifically marked.

I'd greatly prefer graphic signage indicating safe passing and no bike passing zones.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 08:23 PM
  #19  
RCMoeur 
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 1,661 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by daihard
Sharrows can give people on bike a false sene of safety, though. I know quite a few people, including my own wife, who were led to believe they are legally allowed to ride on roads marked with sharrows and not on roads without, which, at least in WA, is untrue.
A serious question: where might this come from? I don't know of any reputable source of information that supports this viewpoint. Knowing why people might think this could be useful in addressing (mis)understanding of this and other traffic control devices.

This being said, I know that devices such as markings and signs can be misunderstood, even by people in positions of authority. For example, in 1998 the city of Phoenix installed non-standard white on green "share the road" signs depicting a motor vehicle and bicycle side by side. Over a decade later, I was stopped by a police officer who said I was riding illegally in the lane because an official sign (not even on that road) showed I was required to ride at the far right at all times. Fortunately, after a brief discussion of ARS 28-815.A.4 (far right exceptions) and 28-735 (passing offset) he saw the law was different, and even waved when he'd see me in the lane in future encounters. And the city stopped installing the problematic signs two decades ago, but alas several are still in place.
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 05-29-23, 08:39 PM
  #20  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by daihard
I know quite a few people, including my own wife, who were led to believe they are legally allowed to ride on roads marked with sharrows and not on roads without, which, at least in WA, is untrue.
"Led to believe" this falsehood by whom?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 09:06 PM
  #21  
daihard 
Just a person on bike
 
daihard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140

Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by JoeyBike
It also misinforms motorists that cyclists are only allowed on roads with sharrows or designate, marked bike lanes.
Very true.

Originally Posted by FBinNY
Agree about the false sense of security, which is among the reasons I'm not a fan of segregated roadways.

However, you offered a poor example in your wife. In this case, she was suffering from a false sense on insecurity, not knowing that just about any road is legal (though not necessarily a smart choice).
Yes, thank you for pointing that out.
__________________

The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
daihard is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 09:08 PM
  #22  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,544

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5703 Post(s)
Liked 2,428 Times in 1,343 Posts
Originally Posted by RCMoeur
A serious question: where might this come from? I don't know of any reputable source of information that supports this viewpoint. Knowing why people might think this could be useful...
There's a very common logic fallacy sometimes called an assumed converse.

So, if people regularly see signage indicating that bikes are legal [here], it's too easy to jump to the conclusion that no sign means no bikes.

This is an extremely old concept in thinking and logic and a reason that the framers felt the need to add the 9th amendment "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people", to the constitution.

It's also why we see phrases like "including....., but not limited to" in contracts.

Last edited by FBinNY; 05-29-23 at 09:30 PM.
FBinNY is offline  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 05-29-23, 09:10 PM
  #23  
daihard 
Just a person on bike
 
daihard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 2,140

Bikes: 2015 Trek 1.1, 2021 Specialized Roubaix, 2022 Tern HSD S+

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 56 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
"Led to believe" this falsehood by whom?
In the case of my wife, she just *assumed* that roads marked with sharrows were "sharable between cars and bicycles" because the sharrows include images of bicycles, and by extension, roads without such sharrows were not. I can't speak for others, though I'd suspect it's a similar assumption.
__________________

The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
daihard is offline  
Old 05-29-23, 09:12 PM
  #24  
RCMoeur 
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,471
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 491 Post(s)
Liked 1,661 Times in 760 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
So, if people regularly see signage indicating that bikes are legal [here], it's too easy to jump to the conclusion that no sign means no bikes.
That was one of the concerns raised during the development and approval of the shared lane marking. Also the R4-11 Bicycles May Use Full Lane sign.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 05-29-23, 09:12 PM
  #25  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,812
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,015 Times in 570 Posts
Originally Posted by JoeyBike
It also misinforms motorists that cyclists are only allowed on roads with sharrows or designate, marked bike lanes.
I don't think there are a large percentage of motorists who are that ignorant.
jon c. is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.