Any Framebuilder familiar with this Track Frame?
#1
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Any Framebuilder familiar with this Track Frame?
I had originally posted this in "Classic & vintage" but was advised that maybe posting here would warrant better results...
I just purchased a used frame from an elderly gentleman off of Craigslist. I was looking for an affordable track frame to complete my build using leftover new stock components I had from 2 previous builds. At $75 I felt it was a good buy. Upon further investigation, I think I may have stumbled on an incredible find. The frame appears (by some frame components) to be Italian but the frame is not marked by any manufacturer or serial number. There are no markings or labels of any kind aside from the Brev Campagnolo stamps on the rear dropouts. Based on the fork I would assume that the frame was built late 50s early 1960s due to the sand-cast Davis fork-crown which was available in 1958-1960. Being the wealth of knowledge that all of you are, do you have any clue what bike this is and its true worth. I'd hate to put cheap components on it and sell it to later find out I had something truly special. Any advice you can give would be much appreciated.
*I plan to take better photos (white backdrop) this weekend but was hoping these attached photos might provide a little info.
Thanks so much!
Being a newbie it won't let me attach photos or a link. Please copy and paste the following to view images of the frame. i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h
I just purchased a used frame from an elderly gentleman off of Craigslist. I was looking for an affordable track frame to complete my build using leftover new stock components I had from 2 previous builds. At $75 I felt it was a good buy. Upon further investigation, I think I may have stumbled on an incredible find. The frame appears (by some frame components) to be Italian but the frame is not marked by any manufacturer or serial number. There are no markings or labels of any kind aside from the Brev Campagnolo stamps on the rear dropouts. Based on the fork I would assume that the frame was built late 50s early 1960s due to the sand-cast Davis fork-crown which was available in 1958-1960. Being the wealth of knowledge that all of you are, do you have any clue what bike this is and its true worth. I'd hate to put cheap components on it and sell it to later find out I had something truly special. Any advice you can give would be much appreciated.
*I plan to take better photos (white backdrop) this weekend but was hoping these attached photos might provide a little info.
Thanks so much!
Being a newbie it won't let me attach photos or a link. Please copy and paste the following to view images of the frame. i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h
#2
blahblahblah chrome moly
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Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)
Mark B in Seattle
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i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h
I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
#4
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i.imgur.com/s0TE53D.jpeg or imgur.com/gallery/HWLZ66h
I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
I have been trying to figure out who made my French track frame for a decade now with no success. And it's far more distinctive than yours.
#5
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Ok 10 posts down, here are the pictures
Photo of complete setup taken by previous owner
Here is the only stamp I have found on the frame
Pretty sure the binder bolt isn't original
Photo of complete setup taken by previous owner
Here is the only stamp I have found on the frame
Pretty sure the binder bolt isn't original
#6
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That crown was still available as late as mid-'80s, though they were starting to look a bit old-fashioned by then.. We used maybe 10-15 of them over about 5 years at the shop I worked at ('79-'84), and I have three of them at the moment. I doubt those were leftovers "in the pipeline" since 1960 – they must have been made up into the late '70s at least.
Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)
Mark B in Seattle
Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)
Mark B in Seattle
Wow, thanks so much for all the info. The only other piece of information I have been able to come up with was from the previous owner. Prior to him purchasing the frame 20+ years ago, it was powder-coated in Boston. I know that doesn't really help determine anything, but it's at least something new I had learned. No, I do not know which type of bottom bracket threads they are. I have not yet removed the sealed cartridge bottom-bracket that is currently installed just yet. I plan to this weekend. I am aware that reverse threaded bottom brackets on the non-drive side would eliminate the possibility of either a French or Italian bottom-bracket threading, but that is about the extent of my knowledge. How would you recommend me determining the threading aside from that? BTW I do not own a caliper for exact measurements.
#7
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After removing the current BB a test fitting of a know threading one will give a lot of data.
Do I see partially collapsed seat lug ears? Andy
Do I see partially collapsed seat lug ears? Andy
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AndrewRStewart
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Looks like a 1970's Chas. Roberts frame from England. Only thing missing is the R that was usually cut into the seat stay caps.
Regards,
MF in SF
Regards,
MF in SF
#9
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#10
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That crown was still available as late as mid-'80s, though they were starting to look a bit old-fashioned by then.. We used maybe 10-15 of them over about 5 years at the shop I worked at ('79-'84), and I have three of them at the moment. I doubt those were leftovers "in the pipeline" since 1960 – they must have been made up into the late '70s at least.
Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)
Mark B in Seattle
Though they look a bit massive, they are cast hollow and are actually decently light.
We would carve them into pleasing shapes, mostly by subtraction, and I never saw one crack or bend, so I think they are strong and malleable castings.
Your frame unfortunately is a bit generic, not in a bad way, just not much that would help pin down the maker or year. I tend to doubt it is Italian – they were unlikely to use a British crown, back in olden times. Might be American-made.
What are the bottom bracket threads? (Do you know how to tell or do you need help with that?)
Mark B in Seattle
Based on the photos and thread type I just posted, any ideas?
#11
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Thanks so much for the suggestion. I reached out to the remaining staff of Roberts Cycles (Roberts Cycles). They took a look and were kind enough to send a response.
Could someone fill me in on what he is referring to when he mentions "The frame number looks to be something four which makes it pretty early ie 1960s"? I am not seeing a frame number from my pictures. Am I overlooking it or is this a reference to the geometry of the frame?
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#13
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That frame dates from the 1970's and I would bet it was imported by Cycle Imports in Cornish, Maine. They were a Roberts importer / distributor, along with other bike parts and framebuilding supplies from Reynolds and Columbus.
The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.
Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.
Enjoy your new bike !
The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.
Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.
Enjoy your new bike !
#14
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Thread Starter
That frame dates from the 1970's and I would bet it was imported by Cycle Imports in Cornish, Maine. They were a Roberts importer / distributor, along with other bike parts and framebuilding supplies from Reynolds and Columbus.
The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.
Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.
Enjoy your new bike !
The number 14 stamped into the Track Ends is probably just a painters reference # to keep the correct fork matched with the correct frame. Very necessary when dealing with multiple frames from multiple builders.
Roberts of that era were very nice frames. If it were mine I would strip that awful, porous clear powdercoat and get it "properly" painted and decalled. I think Franklin Frames in Ohio do a great job for pretty reasonable prices.
Enjoy your new bike !
#15
“I understand...”
Newbie here so I cannot post pix yet but this looks very similar to my (reportedly-not decal’d) Chas Roberts I bought 30yrs ago. Same fork crown, seatstay caps, and triple circle cutouts in lugs. After ten posts I will try to post pix. -Cy
Last edited by ThatsOK Cyril; 11-28-20 at 02:39 AM.
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if you try to post pics now, the system will save them in your gallery and we can post them for you.
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#17
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I would love to see pics when you are able to post.
#18
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After 6+ months of work, she's finally done.
A full list of photos can be found here Roberts Bike | Flickr
A full list of photos can be found here Roberts Bike | Flickr
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#19
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Period Correct Components dating 1950’s-1960’s:
Ambrosio Champion “Dural Forge ET Estampe” Stem 95mm x 26mm
Ambrosio Champion Pista Drop-bar Handlebars
Campagnolo #1051, Record Pista (144bcd) 165 mm Crank Set with matching Campy Crank Bolts and Campagnolo Pista Chainring Bolts
Campagnolo seat post 27.2 diameter, 180 mm length #1044
Campagnolo Super Record Road-Track Alloy Toe Clips (Most likely from the 1980’s)
Campagnolo Nuovo Super Record #1072 Seat Post Binder Fixing Bolt 8 x 19 mm
Campagnolo Headset – Exact model unknown
Modern Components:
Campagnolo Record Pista Bottom Bracket
Charles Roberts, Chrome Racing Bar Plugs
Brooks Cambium Saddle C15
Izumi Jet Black with Gold Pins 1/2 x 1/8 Track Bike Chain
MKS Sylvan all black Track pedals
6KU 30mm Deep V Double-Walled Alloy Wheels
Novatec Flip-Flop Hubs
Christophe Vintage Leather Toe Straps
Custom printed Decals provided by hlloydcycles.com
Alternate Setup - Nitto B259 Urban Riser Handlebar + NITTO Y-3 Bicycle Stem 6-9 Young 22.2, 90mm
Ambrosio Champion “Dural Forge ET Estampe” Stem 95mm x 26mm
Ambrosio Champion Pista Drop-bar Handlebars
Campagnolo #1051, Record Pista (144bcd) 165 mm Crank Set with matching Campy Crank Bolts and Campagnolo Pista Chainring Bolts
Campagnolo seat post 27.2 diameter, 180 mm length #1044
Campagnolo Super Record Road-Track Alloy Toe Clips (Most likely from the 1980’s)
Campagnolo Nuovo Super Record #1072 Seat Post Binder Fixing Bolt 8 x 19 mm
Campagnolo Headset – Exact model unknown
Modern Components:
Campagnolo Record Pista Bottom Bracket
Charles Roberts, Chrome Racing Bar Plugs
Brooks Cambium Saddle C15
Izumi Jet Black with Gold Pins 1/2 x 1/8 Track Bike Chain
MKS Sylvan all black Track pedals
6KU 30mm Deep V Double-Walled Alloy Wheels
Novatec Flip-Flop Hubs
Christophe Vintage Leather Toe Straps
Custom printed Decals provided by hlloydcycles.com
Alternate Setup - Nitto B259 Urban Riser Handlebar + NITTO Y-3 Bicycle Stem 6-9 Young 22.2, 90mm
#20
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That's a nice looking bike now. Great job!
I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
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#21
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That's a nice looking bike now. Great job!
I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
I do have to comment on the seat though. It's been my experience that often when a seat is so tipped down, at it's nose, that the seat height is too high. Especially when I see a set of high positioned flat bars. But I suspect you are ok with this so forget i said anything Andy
Thanks again for commenting I appreciate any and all feedback