A stunning mystery bike on San Fran CL
Likes For bicyforev:
05-17-21, 03:06 PM
#77
Full Member
Likes For belacqua:
05-17-21, 05:24 PM
#78
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
05-17-21, 06:52 PM
#79
Senior Member
OP: Entirely separate from the frame craftsmanship (I also noticed the lug thickness thinning at the borders, stunning):
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.
- Half step plus granny chainrings
- 36 hole 3X spoke lacing
- I believe also double socketed rims (double wall, with a steel cup tying inner and outer walls together, riveted to the inner wall, drastically improving fatigue strength of the rim); heavier but durable.
05-17-21, 09:20 PM
#80
Full Member
The posting is gone.
05-19-21, 08:56 PM
#83
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,038
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4511 Post(s)
Liked 6,378 Times
in
3,667 Posts
Remains to be seen, or not. 
05-19-21, 10:02 PM
#84
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
Peter Johnson et al
On first glance, Peter Johnson came to mind, especially seeing that the bike was on San Francisco CL, .
The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...
There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.
The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.
Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm
Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.
Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:
Tom Ritchey, main
Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"
verktyg
The frame is sort of nondescript in the sense that it's an extremely well finished frame but nothing stands out to point to a particular builder, especially in the SF Bay Area...
There was a lot of "cross pollination" between Peter Johnson and Tom Ritchey that went all the way back to their high school days.
The color isn't something that I would expect from Peter, but whomever built the frame, it was probably the owner's choice.
Here's a link with some photos of Peter's work.
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Peter_Johnson.htm
Scroll down to the light blue bike and compare the lugs with the SF CL bike.
Compare with Tom Ritchey's work:
Tom Ritchey, main
Peter didn't build anywhere near as many frames as Ritchey but they have more "panache"
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 05-19-21 at 11:24 PM.
Likes For verktyg:
05-19-21, 11:03 PM
#85
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
3 Rensho Lugs
3rensho lugs are beautiful - in fact I'd put them up against all but the finest custom frame makers in many cases (IMHO). This is one of those finest of custom frame makers; these lugs are in another league.
3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
3resnho was putting out between 900-1200 frames per year (with a 5 man shop or so..) there's simply no way they would have the amount of time required to produce lug work like this.
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 05-19-21 at 11:51 PM.
Likes For verktyg:
05-19-21, 11:47 PM
#86
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 7,244
Bikes: '72 Cilo Pacer, '72 Gitane Gran Tourisme, '72 Peugeot PX10, '73 Speedwell Ti, '74 Peugeot UE-8, '75 Peugeot PR-10L, '80 Colnago Super, '85 De Rosa Pro, '86 Look Equipe 753, '86 Look KG86, '89 Parkpre Team, '90 Parkpre Team MTB, '90 Merlin
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 834 Post(s)
Liked 2,125 Times
in
554 Posts
FWIW, I never heard back from the seller. I would have loved to have added this bike to the collection, too.
05-21-21, 05:47 AM
#87
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
3Rensho, main
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
By the late 1970's, 3 Rensho was using investment cast lugs. These required a lot less hand filling plus provided a much closer fit with the tubing.
BTW, here's a sketch that shows what they used for lugs and tubing on their "standard" frames in 1979. Tubing was Ishiwata 019 main tubes with 022 forks and stays, Tange cast lugs and Suntour dropouts:
verktyg
.. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this? 3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.On a side note, the '83 specialized Allez that I have which was built by 3rensho looks to be built using their own lugs. They are similar to the Tange ones from their early 80s catalog but there are noticeable differences in the design and workmanship.
Last edited by tendency; 05-21-21 at 05:52 AM.
05-21-21, 05:17 PM
#88
verktyg
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,030
Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1980s DeRosa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA SBDU Team Pro
Mentioned: 207 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1036 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times
in
654 Posts
3Rensho
.. very cool drawing of the frame and lugs that were used on early stock frames. Where'd you come across this?
3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.
3rensho used a wide variety of lugs from the research I've done. Later, by the early to mid 80s or so, many of his bikes were using Yoshi's own investment cast lugs that he created. It does clearly appear though (and certainly backed up by your drawing) that a certain percentage of their frames were using 'stock' Tange lugging.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Likes For verktyg:
05-21-21, 07:07 PM
#89
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 451
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 236 Post(s)
Liked 171 Times
in
104 Posts
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
05-22-21, 08:48 AM
#91
Senior Member
I met with Shin and Yoshi Konno plus another member of their company - CYCLONE Limited - at the 1979 New York International Bicycle Show.
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
It was their first visit to the US and they were looking for an importer. Their booth was across from ours and I got involved with them in part because I spoke Japanese and helped them with translations.
They left me with the three frames that they brought with them for the show. They were spectacular builds but they were 50cm-52cm frames plus 2 of them were track bikes so it was hard to develop much interest in an unknown small Japanese producer with the likes of Centurion, Nishiki, Fuji and others already successfully in the US market.
Additionally the prices at time were 30%+ higher than the prevailing US market and shipping plus import costs would have pushed them up another 10%-15%...
Sadly I left the bike industry later that year and my efforts died on the vine...
verktyg
Maybe some of the phrasing comes from a translation, but I do enjoy the more elegant communication. Very different from the "u tk $50?" I sometimes get now.
Likes For Shrevvy:
06-26-21, 07:10 PM
#92
Full Member
I bought the bike
I asked Peter Johnson if he built the bike and he said no. He thinks that it’s a Tom Richey maybe from the 80s. He took one look at the seat cluster and said it had to be Tom. Others have said Otis Guy.
06-26-21, 07:33 PM
#93
Banned.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 12,294
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked 4,824 Times
in
1,709 Posts
Pull the fork - perhaps there is some sort of identification information on the steerer tube.
DD
DD
06-26-21, 07:35 PM
#94
Full Member
06-26-21, 08:03 PM
#95
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,635
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1299 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4678 Post(s)
Liked 5,795 Times
in
2,281 Posts
Pix are great, but for once I'd rather hear "the rest of the story!"
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
06-26-21, 08:07 PM
#96
framebuilder
Thread Starter
Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
. And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
06-26-21, 08:12 PM
#97
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,582
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1443 Post(s)
Liked 1,062 Times
in
787 Posts
I think if Peter Johnson says it "has to be Tom" he's one to know! Glad to see that it finally went to you gravelinmygears after all that drama and uncertainty! I'm sure yours is a happy resting place for this bike, Cheers and enjoy it! 
06-26-21, 08:46 PM
#98
Full Member
Golden ticket
To make a veeeeery long story short, the seller finally replied to my email and agreed to walk it down to a shop for payment and shipping.
I’m disappointed that it’s not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. I’ll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didn’t work. Unapproved maybe?
It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! There’s lots to explore.
I’m disappointed that it’s not a Peter Johnson. I liked that idea. I’ll keep exploring to see if there are any more clues. I tried to post it on the CR list but it didn’t work. Unapproved maybe?
It is a beautiful frame and the close triple is interesting! There’s lots to explore.
06-26-21, 08:48 PM
#99
Full Member
Since you got one of the best of the best (even though we don't know yet who built it), it will be all down hill if you want to continue looking for more classic frames . And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?
. And you already have a custom built to you so there isn't going to be improvement there. This is when someone in your position starts to think maybe a new gravel or randonneuring bike?That’s kind of foolish to say though. I’d really like a Peter Johnson. And a rainbow traut. And a nice Japanese builder bike. I do try to get rid of bikes before I get new ones tho.
Last edited by gravelinmygears; 06-26-21 at 09:28 PM.
06-26-21, 09:05 PM
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, East bay
Posts: 7,658
Bikes: Miyata 618 GT, Marinoni, Kestral 200 2002 Trek 5200, KHS Flite, Koga Miyata, Schwinn Spitfire 5, Mondia Special, Univega Alpina, Miyata team Ti, Santa Cruz Highball
Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1609 Post(s)
Liked 2,590 Times
in
1,224 Posts
You can contact Otis Guy through the museum if you care to...
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/
https://mmbhof.org/contact-us/