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fearing the slow good bye to rim brake bikes

Old 06-19-22, 12:39 PM
  #226  
Koyote
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
It’s always interesting watching the debates devolve as a new technology becomes accepted. For acceptance to succeed it is because the product or technology is superior overall than what is being replaced. The luddites crawl out of the woodwork hanging on by whatever tenuous threads of logic to defend the obviously dated and inferior equipment. Clipless pedals, Index shifting, Brifters, 700C Clinchers, Carbon, Low spoke count wheels, Tubeless, Electronic Shifting, GPS Bike computers, 2X drive systems and now disc brakes. Anyone who has spent any extended time on an quality disc brake bike especially in the mountains or in adverse conditions knows they function better and are nicer to use than rim brakes. This is the reason a vast majority of passionate cyclists prefer and enjoy disc brake bicycles. To each their own however defending a rim brake bike as just a larger disc but not taking into account the inherently flexible calipers and cable system is laughable. The advantages of hydraulic actuation and a rock solid caliper design is overwhelming.
I'm not sure if each of these technologies is "superior overall," or if some of them are superior for some riders, and irrelevant or inferior for others. Easy example: I find clipless pedals superior on my road bike, but would never run them on my city commuter bike.

In other words, these arguments over new tech are less about superiority and more about personal priorities and preferences.
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Old 06-19-22, 12:48 PM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by _ForceD_
This isn’t meant to be derogatory, but when you (and/or other disc brake users) state that “disc brakes are superior”…how exactly do you mean they’re superior?
You took my statement out of context. It was made in direct response to a question about pickup truck brakes.
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Old 06-19-22, 12:51 PM
  #228  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I'm not sure if each of these technologies is "superior overall," or if some of them are superior for some riders, and irrelevant or inferior for others. Easy example: I find clipless pedals superior on my road bike, but would never run them on my city commuter bike.

In other words, these arguments over new tech are less about superiority and more about personal priorities and preferences.
Good point. My comment regarding clipless would be when compared to legacy foot retention systems such as toe straps especially with the old school TA slotted cleats. For commuting I prefer the dual sided SPD over flats.

But I prefer a steel frame to a carbon one for touring for example because in that use case I would argue that steel is superior. These forums usually devolve into an all or nothing debate which triggers the contrarian in me.
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Old 06-19-22, 12:54 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
To each their own however defending a rim brake bike as just a larger disc but not taking into account the inherently flexible calipers and cable system is laughable.
The cable flex can be eliminated with compressionless housing. It’s lighter, too.
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Old 06-19-22, 01:03 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
It may not be pointless to everyone. It highlights the fact that what we call disk brakes are not inherently better than what we call rim brakes, because in fact they're the same thing. One of them just has a much smaller diameter rotor (less mechanical advantage), and also weighs more. The tradeoff for those limitations are that you can use carbon rims, and also avoid overheating the rims under long hard braking. A lot of people mention other things like mud, or fender clearance. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, and people should choose based on their actual requirements. It's definitely not a "newer is better" thing.
You can refer to your rim brakes as disc brakes if you like. I'm going to start referring to my disc brakes as "rim brakes that utilize a smaller, coaxially-mounted secondary rim that doesn't have a tire mounted on it." Because, you know, rim brakes and disc brakes are really the same thing, and this will highlight that.
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Old 06-19-22, 01:08 PM
  #231  
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Originally Posted by smd4
The cable flex can be eliminated with compressionless housing. It’s lighter, too.
The stretch of approximately 1 meter of brake cable is noticeable as is the slack in the various junctions in the system. As hydraulic braking systems have for all intents zero compression except a very small amount of expansion of the brake housing under very high pressures. Hydraulically actuated brakes are vastly superior to cable in direct feel and transfer of energy.
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Old 06-19-22, 01:10 PM
  #232  
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But will always be heavier.
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Old 06-19-22, 01:38 PM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
I'm not sure that's actually true. A lot of people talk about disk brakes as though they're a completely different type of brakes, and are somehow "better". In their mind they are comparing disk brakes to drum brakes (like on a car). In fact, rim brakes are disk brakes that simply use the rim as the rotor.
They are a completely different type of brake, which is why people speak of them in that manner.

Rim brakes use the rim to brake.
Disc brakes use a disc to brake.

^ see that? Different things are used for braking. Thst makes them different.

I understand what you are trying to say and find it of no benefit. It does no good to stand up any time someone says 'I like disc brakes' and tell them that actually their disc brakes are the same as a rim brake.

Find another hill to die on.
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Old 06-19-22, 01:54 PM
  #234  
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog
fearing that it maybe time to sell my beloved steeds old with rim breaks to begin the Next phase in cycling.
Read that many will not build rim break bicycles. I love my bikes...feeling sadder older broker...
Breaks? as in " 'dems da "?
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Old 06-19-22, 04:21 PM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
They are a completely different type of brake, which is why people speak of them in that manner.

Rim brakes use the rim to brake.
Disc brakes use a disc to brake.

^ see that? Different things are used for braking. Thst makes them different.

I understand what you are trying to say and find it of no benefit. It does no good to stand up any time someone says 'I like disc brakes' and tell them that actually their disc brakes are the same as a rim brake.

Find another hill to die on.
Both varieties use calipers to squeeze brake pads against a rotating disc, causing friction which slows down the rotation of that disk, to which the tire is attached.

Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
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Old 06-19-22, 04:33 PM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
Both varieties use calipers to squeeze brake pads against a rotating disc, causing friction which slows down the rotation of that disk, to which the tire is attached.

Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
Why do you keep going on about this? Your point is ... pointless.
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Old 06-19-22, 04:36 PM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
Both varieties use calipers to squeeze brake pads against a rotating disc, causing friction which slows down the rotation of that disk, to which the tire is attached.

Are you really having trouble understanding a bicycle wheel as a rotating disk? With rim brakes, the braking surfaces of that rotor are simply at the outermost edge of that large rotating disk. Don't let the hollow part in the middle fool you - those spokes are part of the disk. It might be easier to visualize a solid wheel instead of a spoked wheel - then it's easier to see that they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
The fact that both can be considered “discs” in an interesting factoid, but not actually relevant.

There are several critically important differences, which is why in fact that behave differently.
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Old 06-19-22, 04:45 PM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
And just as a reminder, rim brakes ARE disk brakes.
Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
...they are the exact same type of brake, differing only in execution and complexity, and of course the diameter of the disk.
To recap, they are the same...except for design and execution.
Got it.


All seriousness, yes I understand your argument. I get the concept that both are discs.
I just don't view it as a useful argument. When basically nobody views them as the same, the aren't the same...even if the way both perform uses the same mechanics.
Your argument is 20+ years old- it's been made since back when I barely rode bikes. It's hardly groundbreaking and doesn't really further the discussion.


I will try to eespind this way- so what? What really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?
Yeah, both rims and rotors are discs. That is meaningless. It's like arguing- 'remember, both are made of metal.' as if that means something.
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Old 06-19-22, 05:15 PM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
To recap, they are the same...except for design and execution.
Got it.


All seriousness, yes I understand your argument. I get the concept that both are discs.
I just don't view it as a useful argument. When basically nobody views them as the same, the aren't the same...even if the way both perform uses the same mechanics.
Your argument is 20+ years old- it's been made since back when I barely rode bikes. It's hardly groundbreaking and doesn't really further the discussion.


I will try to eespind this way- so what? What really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?
Yeah, both rims and rotors are discs. That is meaningless. It's like arguing- 'remember, both are made of metal.' as if that means something.
I'd suggest that the implication that's been made somewhere in the above morass is that both brake systems work well enough, and that it's not surprising because fundamentally they're quite similar brake systems. Perhaps there's just as much difference between the various types of rim brakes (Canti, U, Dual/Single pivot, Side-pull, direct mount) than there is between the best rim brake systems with the best disc brake systems?
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Old 06-19-22, 06:45 PM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Why do you keep going on about this? Your point is ... pointless.
Gimme a brake.
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Old 06-20-22, 06:30 AM
  #241  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
It’s always interesting watching the debates devolve as a new technology becomes accepted. For acceptance to succeed it is because the product or technology is superior overall than what is being replaced. The luddites crawl out of the woodwork hanging on by whatever tenuous threads of logic to defend the obviously dated and inferior equipment. Clipless pedals, Index shifting, Brifters, 700C Clinchers, Carbon, Low spoke count wheels, Tubeless, Electronic Shifting, GPS Bike computers, 2X drive systems and now disc brakes. Anyone who has spent any extended time on an quality disc brake bike especially in the mountains or in adverse conditions knows they function better and are nicer to use than rim brakes. This is the reason a vast majority of passionate cyclists prefer and enjoy disc brake bicycles. To each their own however defending a rim brake bike as just a larger disc but not taking into account the inherently flexible calipers and cable system is laughable. The advantages of hydraulic actuation and a rock solid caliper design is overwhelming.
Yeah, it's like they don't realise that we have plenty of experience of the older tech to make our own comparisons.
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Old 06-20-22, 06:44 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute


How, exactly, does a hub mounted disc brake give better “modulation” than a rim brake (i.e. a spoke mounted disc brake)? In my experience, I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel or, in extreme situations, spin me around the center of gravity. The only brake that I’ve ever used that didn’t have “modulation” was a hydraulic hub mounted disc. That one was full on or full off with no intermediate control…i.e. the opposite of well modulated.

I’ve seen people on line who claim that linear brakes are either on or off. I’ve never experienced anything like that in 30 year of using linear brakes.
I find hydraulic disc brakes more precise in their bite and modulation in wet or dry conditions. I used to find rim brakes inconsistent in their feel, especially when wet. I also prefer the lighter lever action of disc brakes, especially when braking from the hoods. Can't say I've ever missed rim brakes personally.
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Old 06-20-22, 08:08 AM
  #243  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
People throw the term “modulation” around with regard to bicycle all the time and don’t define it. From the dictionary definition



Another definition



How, exactly, does a hub mounted disc brake give better “modulation” than a rim brake (i.e. a spoke mounted disc brake)? In my experience, I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel or, in extreme situations, spin me around the center of gravity. The only brake that I’ve ever used that didn’t have “modulation” was a hydraulic hub mounted disc. That one was full on or full off with no intermediate control…i.e. the opposite of well modulated.

I’ve seen people on line who claim that linear brakes are either on or off. I’ve never experienced anything like that in 30 year of using linear brakes.
I don't think it's "throwing around the term". You're an experienced cyclist and must certainly recognize that there are differences in modulation between different brakes, even two different brands or models of the same type. Sure, all brakes behave as you describe - I can pull on either a little or a lot and get the bike to slow a little or lock the rear wheel - but there's a vast difference in how brakes behave in between that range. I agree that the term "either on or off" is an exaggeration, but some brakes are definitely too grabby for me. I've got a few sets of V-brakes in a drawer that I took off bikes and replaced with cantis, just for that reason. Any good brakes will lock up the wheels if you need them to, so for me it's a matter of how much control I have between lightly feathering the brakes and full-on panic stop. I think it's more important to some than to others. To some people, especially less experienced riders, V-brakes seem more "powerful" but what they're really feeling is that full braking comes on much more quickly. I use the term "grabby".
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Old 06-20-22, 08:29 AM
  #244  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
TWhat really is your point? Both are discs, one is just larger. Ok then, so what? Why are you making that point? What is your goal of continually saying it?....
I'm not continually saying it - I said it once, in the reply that began "As a reminder..." The rest of it has been me explaining it to you.

The point is to dispel the notion that disk brakes are anything really different, and that they are inherently better. Remember that the OP asked about the future of rim brakes and whether he should migrate his stable of bikes to disk. The answer is that 1) No, we won't have any problem getting rim brakes in the future, and 2) There's no inherent benefit to disk brakes, and there are some downsides too.

The most that can be said is that disk brakes can be better, for some bikes under some circumstances. Remember that it was only last year that we had the first TDF winner with disk brakes. If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:09 AM
  #245  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
I If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
No. It's because they are superior in every way.

The braking system is not a major factor contributing to winning or not.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:26 AM
  #246  
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Originally Posted by prj71
No. It's because they are superior in every way.
Except for weight...
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Old 06-20-22, 09:35 AM
  #247  
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The weight is not a factor in winning or not either.
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Old 06-20-22, 09:58 AM
  #248  
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Originally Posted by prj71
No. It's because they are superior in every way.
In "every way"? That's obviously not true. Perhaps a little perspective would help. Here's a couple articles to get you started.

From this article (and supported by other opinions as well) - "And yet, on a bike optimized for performance, rim brakes often remain the better choice."
Myths Debunked: Disc Brakes DON’T Always Work Better Than Rim Brakes

Here's another good read.
Disc Brakes Vs Rim Brakes: A Pros and Cons List
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Old 06-20-22, 09:58 AM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by prj71
The weight is not a factor in winning or not either.
My response was only directed to your statement that disc brakes "are superior in every way." They are not superior in lightness.
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Old 06-20-22, 01:15 PM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
I'm not continually saying it - I said it once, in the reply that began "As a reminder..." The rest of it has been me explaining it to you.

The point is to dispel the notion that disk brakes are anything really different, and that they are inherently better. Remember that the OP asked about the future of rim brakes and whether he should migrate his stable of bikes to disk. The answer is that 1) No, we won't have any problem getting rim brakes in the future, and 2) There's no inherent benefit to disk brakes, and there are some downsides too.

The most that can be said is that disk brakes can be better, for some bikes under some circumstances. Remember that it was only last year that we had the first TDF winner with disk brakes. If they were "better" then racers would have switched to them long ago. It's only because of their sponsors that more teams are switching.
Disc brakes are different from rim brakes though. They use a disc instead of the rim to stop. That is different. I get that you think just because a piece of metal is squeezed in both examples they are the same, but they are not.
To highlight, rim brakes are also quite different. A cantilever brake is different from a vbrake which is different from a single pivot caliper which is different from a dual pivot caliper. <---4 different types of rim brakes, even though they all squeeze the rim to stop.
A cantilever brake is significantly different from a dual pivot caliper brake in setup, design, and use. Same goes for a vbrake compared to a cantilever brake.


We dont need vast changes in how a bike brakes for the brake systems to be different enough to recognize them as just that- different. We dont need to go from sticking a branch in the spokes to using a brake lever to call the brake systems different.

Cool- disc brakes and rim brakes both use compressing pads to slow a bike. They are the same in that way. The pads, caliper location, and item that is being rubbed are different, but yes- both use pads that compress. Thank you for the observation- we all recognize how both slow a bike down.
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