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Shimano 12 spd Durace 9200 and Ultegra 8100 - new freehub design?

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Shimano 12 spd Durace 9200 and Ultegra 8100 - new freehub design?

Old 09-01-21, 08:13 AM
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bluehills3149
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Shimano 12 spd Durace 9200 and Ultegra 8100 - new freehub design?

With the release of the 12 spd groupsets, shimano has released a new freehub spline pattern. The MTB 12 spd groupsets were recently upgraded to Microspline (which can take 10 tooth cassettes) but it's unclear if this is the same or related to the road groupsets just released.
From cyclingtips.com "Although it’s different from the current 11-speed spline pattern (more on this in a bit, too), the new cassette has been designed to be backward-compatible with existing 11-speed hubs and wheels." it appears is is different to microspline.
And from cyclingweekly.com (who spoke to Mike Anderson, PR manager of Madison, Shimano’s UK distributor) says " the new 12-speed wheels have a new freehub design that is not Microspline, like the 11-speed hubs, meaning that 11-speed cassettes will not fit the new 12-speed freehub. However, all 12-speed cassettes fit existing 11-speed Hyperglide wheels.
So do we now have 3 different freehub designs? Micro-spline for 12 spd MTB, a new road 12 spd design and the old familiar 11 spd that's been around for eons?
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Old 09-01-21, 08:44 AM
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If you include an MTB wheel freehub design, then I guess there are 3.
But then why not include MTB shifters in this discussion if we are including MTB freehubs? So now we have multiple shifter designs too!
Kidding...kind of.
CT's Huang said Shimano didnt want to do a 10t cog due to drivetrain wear. So based on that, the road set doesnt have 3 different freehub designs.

Shimano is using MTB rotors and 12sp chains moving forward. So they are clearly willing to use MTB gear when they feel its best.

Last edited by mstateglfr; 09-01-21 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 09-01-21, 09:23 AM
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Here's a pic of microspline.


And the new road hub.

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Old 09-01-21, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by bluehills3149
So do we now have 3 different freehub designs? Micro-spline for 12 spd MTB, a new road 12 spd design and the old familiar 11 spd that's been around for eons?
Basically, yes.

I'd say this is mostly so Shimano could make the new 12-speed road cassettes backwards compatible with all 11-speed freehubs (but not the other way around).
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Old 09-02-21, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
CT's Huang said Shimano didnt want to do a 10t cog due to drivetrain wear.
Which may be, but I find that argument specious. I have one bike with a 10t top cog, and the chain seems to wear no faster on that bike than they do on my others with Shimano cassettes. But, definitely, there is plenty of testimonial evidence from folks that the SRAM 10t cogs beat up chains pretty good.

I did read that the engineers believed the reduced chain angles as the chain wraps around the larger sized cogs (remember they also increased the 53/39 to a 54/40) made the drivetrain more efficient, reducing "power loss" in the chain.
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Old 09-02-21, 06:51 AM
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Most users spend very little time in the smallest sprocket, whether it's a 10 or 11. I've heard of the smaller sprockets wearing out first, on bikes ridden on flat lands, but never heard of accelerated chain wear. Campy has Ekar 1x13 with 9T sprockets. They ran tests that showed the power loss to be minimal.

I use sram force axs with a 48/31 crank and 10-36 or 10-33 cassette. The 48/10 is the same as a 53/11. I use it on mountain descents or lesser slopes with a big tailwind, but it's sees little use. I spend about twice as much time going up a mountain as I do going down.
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Old 09-02-21, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I've heard of the smaller sprockets wearing out first, on bikes ridden on flat lands...
I live in a relatively flat area and my 12t is my most shiny and unused cog.
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Old 09-02-21, 07:55 AM
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Sure, a 10t cog may not be ideal but why not let the customer decide if the trade-off is worth it? And the benefit of being able to fit a new 12 spd cassette on old 11spd xd spline of small benefit since you can usually retrofit a microspline body onto many popular hubs or you can today buy 12spd cassettes from brands like Sunshine (in 11-28t) that fit old style XD hubs.
I'm thinking this is going to be a huge PITA in the future, particularly for gravel bikes whose gearing blurs between road and mtn.
Sure, I understand why XD had to be put out to pasture, but why 2 standards to replace it?
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Old 09-02-21, 08:39 AM
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Microspline is Shimano and XD/XDR are SRAM. No compatibility there. The new Shimano DA 12 is not Microspline. As I understand it, it accepts both the new Shimano 12 road cassettes and previous 11 speed cassettes. Microspline is required to use a 10T sprocket and shimano won't be making one for road.

XDR can be used with XD cassettes with a spacer or XDR cassettes.

When a 10T road cassette is used, it nearly always has a big ring of 50 or less. Sram makes pro level cranks with larger chain rings but that's usually to create specific ratios with the 11-12-13-14 and the 10 is almost never used.
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Old 09-02-21, 09:35 AM
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My bad - yes, I meant SG (Shimano) not XD (sram).
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Old 09-02-21, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Microspline is Shimano and XD/XDR are SRAM. No compatibility there. The new Shimano DA 12 is not Microspline. As I understand it, it accepts both the new Shimano 12 road cassettes and previous 11 speed cassettes. Microspline is required to use a 10T sprocket and shimano won't be making one for road.

XDR can be used with XD cassettes with a spacer or XDR cassettes.

When a 10T road cassette is used, it nearly always has a big ring of 50 or less. Sram makes pro level cranks with larger chain rings but that's usually to create specific ratios with the 11-12-13-14 and the 10 is almost never used.
the new DA 12sp freehub won’t accept 11sp cassettes, however, 12sp cassettes can be fitted to 11sp freehubs. The goal, I imagine, I’d to encourage the adoption of 12sp by not making a whole generation of 11sp wheels obsolete in one fell swoop. But you’re not going to get to use those swanky new DA wheels unless you go with 12sp
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Old 09-02-21, 03:58 PM
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The design of the DA 12 speed freehub and cassette was done to enable the use of lighter/softer material. Where each of the spline/tooth on the older freehub and cassette cog contacted only 1 point, this new design contacts 2 points. Some of the pre-12 freehubs had a similar 'slot' in the spline but served no purpose other that saving weight. The cog only contacted the outer edge. The new cassette interface uses what was the unused 'slot" as an additional bearing point.

In the space between the load bearing splines, the 12 speed DA freehub has an additional shorter spline that prevents the use of older cassettes. Presumably this was done to prevent older cassettes from being used which would cut into the alum. body. Since the Ultegra wheel has a steel freehub body it could possibly have been designed use an pre-12 cassette. Haven't seen the new Ultegra wheel and freehub body, nor seen any info about its specs.
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