Bitten by Tubeless
09-14-21, 04:42 AM
#251
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,399
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4393 Post(s)
Liked 4,835 Times
in
2,989 Posts
I've read about so many failures with tubeless tyres but there seems to be a constant in the narrative: narrow tyre size.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
I've weighed 14 stone (91kg, gym rat) for the past 15 years or so and I have never even considered 23/25mm tyres to be a suitable tyre for my weight ( not only for comfort but for tyre support), not even on paper.
28mm being the narrowest I've ever used, with 32-35 being my choice if the frame can take it.
Not having a go at people here just trying to understand their process when it comes to choosing suitable tyre size, all things considered: frame allowance, affordability, tyre size, system type ( tl, clinchers, tlr). Do people think about these things prior to buying or just grab whatever their mate told them they should?
I mean I cannot wrap my head around how a 23/25mm tubeless tyre, which is designed to be ridden at a lower pressure (60 psi?) in the first place for the system to even be correctly set up to work, can support an average weight of 85kg without rims touching the ground. The pressure from the weight alone would deem puncture sealing non existent.
Also how the same tyre 23/25mm can be made to be easily installed (similar to tubed tyres) yet seal the air inside under high rider weight and not let much air out when puncturing? ( again 85kg average but more than that usually, lets be honest most riders do not weigh 65-75 kg at least in UK and US is not known for it's slim figure, so don't even go there).
I mean if I get a puncture at 91kg running 25mm tyres, I would probably not even be completely stopped and there would probably be no air in the tyre left.
Again, not hating, don't care how much you weigh, just interested in your process of selecting the tyre base on your current status.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
I've weighed 14 stone (91kg, gym rat) for the past 15 years or so and I have never even considered 23/25mm tyres to be a suitable tyre for my weight ( not only for comfort but for tyre support), not even on paper.
28mm being the narrowest I've ever used, with 32-35 being my choice if the frame can take it.
Not having a go at people here just trying to understand their process when it comes to choosing suitable tyre size, all things considered: frame allowance, affordability, tyre size, system type ( tl, clinchers, tlr). Do people think about these things prior to buying or just grab whatever their mate told them they should?
I mean I cannot wrap my head around how a 23/25mm tubeless tyre, which is designed to be ridden at a lower pressure (60 psi?) in the first place for the system to even be correctly set up to work, can support an average weight of 85kg without rims touching the ground. The pressure from the weight alone would deem puncture sealing non existent.
Also how the same tyre 23/25mm can be made to be easily installed (similar to tubed tyres) yet seal the air inside under high rider weight and not let much air out when puncturing? ( again 85kg average but more than that usually, lets be honest most riders do not weigh 65-75 kg at least in UK and US is not known for it's slim figure, so don't even go there).
I mean if I get a puncture at 91kg running 25mm tyres, I would probably not even be completely stopped and there would probably be no air in the tyre left.
Again, not hating, don't care how much you weigh, just interested in your process of selecting the tyre base on your current status.
Secondly quite a lot of UK riders I come across really are in the 65-75 kg weight range, but there are also plenty well above that too. I'm in the 75-80 kg range depending on my training regime and I consider myself a fairly heavy rider in the kind of events I target e.g hilly GFs. There is no shortage of 70kg and under mountain goats whenever I enter those!
I run 30/32 mm tubeless at around 70-75 psi and have no issues with that combination. I run Pirelli tyres (Cinturato Velo 32 and P-Zero Race TLR 30) as I think they have tubeless well sorted and they are easy to fit/remove.
09-14-21, 05:47 AM
#252
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
I've read about so many failures with tubeless tyres but there seems to be a constant in the narrative: narrow tyre size.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
.
09-14-21, 06:13 AM
#253
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times
in
252 Posts
25mm tubeless tires aren't designed for 60 psi (in fact, they're cathegorically not designed for 60 psi, if you read the sidewall); optimal pressures for speed are in the 80-90 psi range (pressures assuming your pump reads pressures correctly - mine read nearly 10 psi above when I actually checked the calibration; I hear that's pretty common). 23mm tubeless tires only really exist in the realm of timetrial specific tires. I mean, they are sexy and light and fast and soft and you can ride them on the road, but if you go over glass there's a 50/50 chance the tire will puncture which may or may not seal (because it is, after all, a very much paperthin tire of a very lightweight construction), while a GP5000TL will typically just happily trundle over it, and the speed difference just doesn't justify their use outside of timetrial / triathlon.
You are right that heavier riders should choose wider tires, but they already overwhelmingly do; the move towards wide tires and wider frames is largely driven by the fact that overweight customers are the norm rather than the exception (deteriorating infrastructure in some countries may be a contributing factor).
You are right that heavier riders should choose wider tires, but they already overwhelmingly do; the move towards wide tires and wider frames is largely driven by the fact that overweight customers are the norm rather than the exception (deteriorating infrastructure in some countries may be a contributing factor).
09-14-21, 06:19 AM
#254
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
I've read about so many failures with tubeless tyres but there seems to be a constant in the narrative: narrow tyre size.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
I've weighed 14 stone (91kg, gym rat) for the past 15 years or so and I have never even considered 23/25mm tyres to be a suitable tyre for my weight ( not only for comfort but for tyre support), not even on paper.
28mm being the narrowest I've ever used, with 32-35 being my choice if the frame can take it.
Not having a go at people here just trying to understand their process when it comes to choosing suitable tyre size, all things considered: frame allowance, affordability, tyre size, system type ( tl, clinchers, tlr). Do people think about these things prior to buying or just grab whatever their mate told them they should?
I mean I cannot wrap my head around how a 23/25mm tubeless tyre, which is designed to be ridden at a lower pressure (60 psi?) in the first place for the system to even be correctly set up to work, can support an average weight of 85kg without rims touching the ground. The pressure from the weight alone would deem puncture sealing non existent.
Also how the same tyre 23/25mm can be made to be easily installed (similar to tubed tyres) yet seal the air inside under high rider weight and not let much air out when puncturing? ( again 85kg average but more than that usually, lets be honest most riders do not weigh 65-75 kg at least in UK and US is not known for it's slim figure, so don't even go there).
I mean if I get a puncture at 91kg running 25mm tyres, I would probably not even be completely stopped and there would probably be no air in the tyre left.
Again, not hating, don't care how much you weigh, just interested in your process of selecting the tyre base on your current status.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.
I've weighed 14 stone (91kg, gym rat) for the past 15 years or so and I have never even considered 23/25mm tyres to be a suitable tyre for my weight ( not only for comfort but for tyre support), not even on paper.
28mm being the narrowest I've ever used, with 32-35 being my choice if the frame can take it.
Not having a go at people here just trying to understand their process when it comes to choosing suitable tyre size, all things considered: frame allowance, affordability, tyre size, system type ( tl, clinchers, tlr). Do people think about these things prior to buying or just grab whatever their mate told them they should?
I mean I cannot wrap my head around how a 23/25mm tubeless tyre, which is designed to be ridden at a lower pressure (60 psi?) in the first place for the system to even be correctly set up to work, can support an average weight of 85kg without rims touching the ground. The pressure from the weight alone would deem puncture sealing non existent.
Also how the same tyre 23/25mm can be made to be easily installed (similar to tubed tyres) yet seal the air inside under high rider weight and not let much air out when puncturing? ( again 85kg average but more than that usually, lets be honest most riders do not weigh 65-75 kg at least in UK and US is not known for it's slim figure, so don't even go there).
I mean if I get a puncture at 91kg running 25mm tyres, I would probably not even be completely stopped and there would probably be no air in the tyre left.
Again, not hating, don't care how much you weigh, just interested in your process of selecting the tyre base on your current status.
FWIW, when I started using tubeless, I was running 25mm tires at ~100psi, and Orange Seal worked just fine. There were occasions when the leaking didn't stop until there's was a significant drop in pressure (down to ~60-70psi), but once the puncture was plugged, the sealant would hold when pumped back up to full pressure.
Likes For WhyFi:
09-14-21, 07:29 AM
#255
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,608
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10954 Post(s)
Liked 7,482 Times
in
4,184 Posts
09-14-21, 07:36 AM
#256
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
We have pounds/ounces and kilos/grams. What is the subweight of stone. Would that be pebbles? 
09-14-21, 08:01 AM
#257
Full Member
09-14-21, 08:13 AM
#258
Full Member
There are plenty of 23mm tubeless tyres available but I agree 25mm GP5K seems to be the flysheet
I wasn't exactly sure what the recommended tyre pressure was, hence the '?', for 25mm since I never even considered them.
91kg + 90psi is pushing the limits quite a bit on a 25mm punctured tyre tbh.
91kg at 5'11" and I'm on the beefy side,
6' and above, you can be skinny all you want at 90kg, my initial post was weight not fat related.
32mm Panaracer GK+ @65 psi + Stan's is what I run
I wasn't exactly sure what the recommended tyre pressure was, hence the '?', for 25mm since I never even considered them.
91kg + 90psi is pushing the limits quite a bit on a 25mm punctured tyre tbh.
91kg at 5'11" and I'm on the beefy side,
6' and above, you can be skinny all you want at 90kg, my initial post was weight not fat related.
32mm Panaracer GK+ @65 psi + Stan's is what I run
09-14-21, 08:18 AM
#259
Full Member
And I don't want to take that away from you mate, but, for the rest of the world I actually stated my weight in kg as well.
09-14-21, 08:20 AM
#260
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,608
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10954 Post(s)
Liked 7,482 Times
in
4,184 Posts
It sounds snarky, but I do get a kick out of seeing 'stone' because in my mind its such a dead unit of weight. Obviously its very much alive elsewhere though.
This reminds me of when I was younger and would hear someone say 'it cost 4 quid' and I would have 0 idea what that translates to. It meant as much as if someone said 'it cost 4 maroon'. But then once I realized thats just slang for 'pound', I got all sorts of confused again since 'pound' meant currency and not weight!
Good stuff.
09-14-21, 08:36 AM
#261
Full Member
To be clear, I really do like reading it because it isnt common so its not like i have to google it frequently. And in your example, you added kg which helps give me a general idea(i double it then cut a bit to get my pounds estimate) so it really does work fine.
It sounds snarky, but I do get a kick out of seeing 'stone' because in my mind its such a dead unit of weight. Obviously its very much alive elsewhere though.
This reminds me of when I was younger and would hear someone say 'it cost 4 quid' and I would have 0 idea what that translates to. It meant as much as if someone said 'it cost 4 maroon'. But then once I realized thats just slang for 'pound', I got all sorts of confused again since 'pound' meant currency and not weight!
Good stuff.
It sounds snarky, but I do get a kick out of seeing 'stone' because in my mind its such a dead unit of weight. Obviously its very much alive elsewhere though.
This reminds me of when I was younger and would hear someone say 'it cost 4 quid' and I would have 0 idea what that translates to. It meant as much as if someone said 'it cost 4 maroon'. But then once I realized thats just slang for 'pound', I got all sorts of confused again since 'pound' meant currency and not weight!
Good stuff.
One is ok but more is always better isn't it?
09-14-21, 09:33 AM
#262
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times
in
252 Posts
And... that's it for 23mm tubeless. I would actually like if 23mm tubeless GP5000 existed because one of my wheelsets really aerodynamically works with 23s, and our roads are pretty decent, but 🤷
Last edited by Branko D; 09-14-21 at 09:37 AM.
09-14-21, 09:39 AM
#263
Full Member
Looking on Bike24 which is easily the biggest EU internet bike stuff retailer, there's the Vittoria Corsa Speed (TT specific tire, great for what it does, but it's currently out of stock everywhere), a Kenda Valkyre Pro (first time I heard of it, doesn't inspire confidence, also out of stock), older generation Schwalbe Pro One which is no longer in production and out of stock and Cadex Race which costs 83.93 Euro a pop yet tested for rolling resistance is diabolically bad.
And... that's it for 23mm tubeless. I would actually like if 23mm tubeless GP5000 existed because one of my wheelsets really aerodynamically works with 23s, and our roads are pretty decent, but 🤷
And... that's it for 23mm tubeless. I would actually like if 23mm tubeless GP5000 existed because one of my wheelsets really aerodynamically works with 23s, and our roads are pretty decent, but 🤷
09-14-21, 10:04 AM
#266
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
09-14-21, 02:54 PM
#267
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,399
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4393 Post(s)
Liked 4,835 Times
in
2,989 Posts
No, it’s the Europeans who use Bar for tyre pressures. We Brits use psi. Stones and lbs for body weight, although kg is just as widely used these days over here. 1 Stone = 14 lbs.
09-14-21, 03:24 PM
#268
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,633
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4731 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Ok, but is it a coincidence that the added together diameters of a 700c wheelset is 14 hands?
09-14-21, 03:40 PM
#269
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,952
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Ibis Ripley AF, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 871 Post(s)
Liked 726 Times
in
436 Posts
Last Friday I had my first tubeless puncture (significant, anyway, as I think I've heard momentary hissing before but not seen any sealant spray) since I switched to tubeless over a year ago. Was my rear OG 25mm Schwalbe Pro One at about 75 PSI on 20mm IW rims with my 140 lbs plus whatever riding gear weighs. Orange Seal Endurance sealed it up after leaking out for a while. Either I got a second puncture on the ride or it reopened so I pulled over but didn't find anything obvious breaking the tread. After spinning my wheel quickly for a bit (I was on a H.C. climb so the 9-10 mph speeds might've not helped) it resealed and didn't leak again for the duration of the ride, nor on subsequent rides after topping up the sealant.
I don't know exactly how much I've ridden on the tire but it should be more than 1000 km. I rode 400 km just a few weekends ago in back-to-back imperial centuries+ bonus miles. Every generation of Pro Ones seem to have the reputation for being fragile, so not upset whatsoever at what transpired.
I don't know exactly how much I've ridden on the tire but it should be more than 1000 km. I rode 400 km just a few weekends ago in back-to-back imperial centuries+ bonus miles. Every generation of Pro Ones seem to have the reputation for being fragile, so not upset whatsoever at what transpired.
Likes For surak:
