merziac

Mazda Soul Crystal Red was my original pick for the Strawberry until I drilled down and found the cost to be a $ way too far and that it does not translate to the same wow factor on skinny tube bike frames. It's a very finicky, labor intensive process as well. 4 coat process that requires very high level of skill and experience to get it right. Its been in the pipeline long enough for the experience to have come in general by now but it also seems to not age well and chipping easily is a big concern.

At the Velo Cult framebuilders show, Paul Ketelaar came from Austrailia with a frame he had done in it, he redid it several times before he got the hang of it but the end result was not the same for the small tubes although it was pretty awesome.

Real world numbers have this at easy $1k or more for a paint job that would be somewhat lackluster at best on a bike frame compared to a car.

JaccoW

There are places that have the experience though. One of them is Unlimited Colors in the Netherlands. Not sure about the price but they are pretty quick to reply if you e-mail them.

They do some crazy designs.

RiddleOfSteel

@merziac that second photo with the black Ultegra components (6700 generation for those playing at home) has me thinking that red translated pretty well! Also, what a great color composition for a bike.

I think the world has gotten some version of candy or metallic red down to a reliable and attainable science. Again, black works well, and if this takes any longer (lol, whose hands is that in???), then I'll go delightfully bonkers and lay down a red-magenta type color in pearl or metallic and build the rest of the bike to suit.

Something like this. Go with a black seatpost, stem, and bar tape. White modern saddle and SRAM hoods. SRAM Red carbon crankset, 30-40mm deep (gloss black) carbon wheels. A visual "throwdown."


Or something deeper, color-wise, but still with some flair.

merziac

^^^ Agreed, the "trick" in some cases is to find a base coat that can be used by itself. Black Magic nailed it on the Strawberry.

It is Honda Basque Red and I was originally not happy with how dark it was but of course it grew on me and gets compliments all the time.

It was an extra $150 just for the paint since they didn't have anything darker than Colnago/Sarinoni Red in stock that was too bright/light for me.

Should have trusted them from the jump instead of being a pita about it but I researched it after they told me about it and found several examples where it looked orange or even darker than It seemed, so I was pretty spun up.

They told me it was already ordered by the time I thought I didn't want it so that was it.

I know a lot about the process having a very good friend that is an expert painter and has so many horror stories about paint, customers, color, cost and so on but he just laughs at me about painting bikes, I had hoped to have him paint it but no dice.

It of course looks fantastic and different in every situation depending on light, background, etc.





This would have been a good choice as well if it would work with just the base coat..

RiddleOfSteel

A bit of a non-visually-aided update for everyone here. I have been putting my mind through the wringer trying to get two halves of a bridge to unite, and I have largely been working two different themes with regard to the stem, handlebars, and brake levers. The first theme is, of course, a more traditional one employing a quill stem and mid-to-late-'80s brake levers (or at least that look) while still using compact bars. The second theme is a conversion to threadless stem (quill adapter or Innicycle, essentially), using compact bars and a brake lever that looks the part (could be more vintage or more modern). Why the constant of compact bars? Saddle to brake hood drop. Using traditional drops, while excellent looking, puts the brake levers much too low for comfort, especially over multi-hour efforts. I've locked in my drop to 55-60mm, and 26.0mm (clamp diameter) compact bars theoretically allow for no hood height loss relative to the bar height at the clamp.

I had gathered a gaggle of 110mm and 120mm stems with which to potentially employ on this 74° head tubed frame. Stems that had flat top edges as opposed to the dip-and-bump-up top edge profile of, say, a Cinelli 1A. Stems that were not ugly, too. So many ugly quill stems out there, it's saddening. Anyway, the flat-top-edge stems usually do a good job of correcting the "that looks angled down" attitude of many a traditional quill stem, especially on steeper head tube angled frames. The goal is to have the stems look horizontal just like the top tube. This happens often for many of us. Well...I struck out on all four stems! ITM? 71° actual, but the most beautiful in design and gloss black. 3TTT? 72° with a very lovely design, but still, no dice. My Modolo X-Tenos? 73° which worked and looked level, even if it was technically angled down 1° (1° is my limit for angle variance here now)! What went wrong? It would not even entertain having a compact profile bar be slid through it. Not even close. So outside of a miracle, the quill stem effort has been met with a very large wall. [and no, MTB-inspired TIG welded stems are 99% hideous, don't climb tall enough, and are the most incongruous and inelegant component to saddle a lugged frame with.]

Things haven't looked too much better on the quill conversion side of things either. Since this frameset isn't a 67cm, a "slammed" quill conversion is out of the question. You've seen previous posts of the 20mm of spacers used to dress up the quill conversion, and that puts the front end at a great height. The side profile of the Nitto M151 bars necessitates a brake lever with a long body like the SRAM levers I have. That is, if I or someone wants to have a smooth transition from the hoods to the bars (a huge reason those of us buy compact bars in the first place). Other compact bars are a lot more amenable to older levers like Shimano 6400, 7402, BL-R400s and R600s as far as lever body to bar transitions go. So the M151's need the SRAM levers. I like the SRAM levers. The SRAM levers are killer looking and very modern looking. And all black. Cool! But on a potentially traditional build? Oof. Something is going to have to give, and I may be going a different direction (aesthetically) than originally planned....let's just say there might be ghosts of Paramounts past at work...

Previous CAD build screen shots have shown my improving an Innicycle headset, even building threadless stems in CAD. Well, since I am human and thus fallible, I had been building them incorrectly. The diameter was too large, but an 1/8". That makes a huge difference in general, and especially with standard diameter steel tubing and lugs. Add headset spacers, as threadless systems need, and the diameter issue only gets worse. Thankfully I have recognized my error and corrected it. I've even reworked the Innicycle headset to work with a 1" threadless stem. It is very promising in the CAD model, where ideas live for free and without consequence. I'll cover this in a future post.

But for now, I wanted to let everyone know that I have been fastidiously (totally not obsessively...) working on this, but it's been slow and more than a bit agonizing. I will be refraining from posting CAD renderings until I can make the rest of the components and make the rest of the bike more complete before making any final cockpit-area decisions.

Anyway, thanks for reading the text wall. Hoping to have more updates soon. For now, I'll just be riding it in its jalopy-looking state.

JaccoW

Throw on some teal handlebar tape and you have a great looking CMYK combination.


Color palette generator

Rocket-Sauce 

I think if I interpret what you are saying, that the problem with the Innicycle route is you would need a stack of spacers with this sized frame, and that would look too thick or beefy? This brings up a question I've had about Innicycle Conversion Headset (of which I have on 3 bikes): are the spacers necessary? Is it possible for the stem to clamp tight enough to the upper portion of the Innicycle (the false steerer tube) that it would support your weight during a ride?

That combined with a narrower stem, (like a Syntace F99?) may solve some of this.

RiddleOfSteel

I think it is implied that spacers are not needed for the Innicycle, but that people put them on to give a more traditional look (less "lollipop"-ish). I could be wrong, but it's a guess. I suppose we could look at seatposts and go, hey, that's a M6 or M8 or whatever bolt that holds plenty of light and heavy riders up and it's fine.

Thank you for the heads up on the Syntace F99 stem. That is a great possibility.

I have just completed full CAD modeling of my Medici, in that, I have replicated all components necessary to make the bike complete, including chain and cables. That is the primary reason I've gone "dark" on this thread. I will be doing a series of renderings today, though loading the now-very-heavy CAD file into the program will be a bit fun.

RiddleOfSteel

@Rocket-Sauce I just had the thought come to me as I was out for an evening ride. In threadless stem conversion, of which I have done many, the stem clamps onto the adapter and that is it. No spacers below to help support or anything. Essentially the Innicycle headset would have the stem function similarly. As long as it looks natural (or natural enough) without the spacers, it's fine. I've certainly had the instance where, on a modern bike, I've used spacers, but the stem was more slender around the steerer that it looked a little odd. High quality stems have 2mm of thickness around the steerer--quite svelte and much more so than their older counterparts which were in the 3-4mm range. Add in some clever "implied line/form" design work on the part of the modern stem manufacturers, and I could get away with the no spacer look.

RiddleOfSteel

Ok, everyone. FINALLY. Been a rendering madman in addition to still working the component composition in light of my parallel Trek 510 project. Basically it comes down to saddle color on the 510 and the domino reaction to it either keeping its planned Open 4 CD wheelset, or getting the MA2 wheelset currently on the Medici. The MA2 was part of the current Medici plan before a well-loved Honey-colored Brooks saddle and Trek's Chestnut paint color clashed. The Trek's plan was to have a Honey colored saddle and bar tape--a "light colored upper"--with beautifully contrasting Open 4 rims, but with the 'weathered Honey' tone and the 510's color, that is now very much up in the air. Which means I must consider Open 4s for the Medici so that the Trek can have the "easier to match" polished silver wheelset. Which then throws the more finalized Medici composition plans up in the air, too! And we're back to that old stem angle chestnut, partially complicated by how the modern SRAM levers look with a traditional quill stem and thin bars.... Welcome to my brain at present. It's been a bit of a war. And if you are somewhat (or completely!) confused by all of this, let me present some lovely CAD renderings to both satisfy Text Central here as well as further tell the story.

For the last week or so, I have been hammering away at completing the bike's componentry, modeled after the actual components on the Medici at present. You learn quite a lot about component construction, thought process and detail when you take the calipers to these things.

Anyway, these first renderings will be of the bike with a stock, properly-measured Innicycle headset. This will give you an idea of the diameters and "visual masses" at play here in the front end with a non-slammed stem position and standard diameter tubing. I use the same color composition in all three images here--one of the finalized plans I had in my head--with the differences being solely in headset and stem arrangements. Note that the "bar tape" mimics vintage leather-wrapped bars as, annoyingly, my CAD program galactically overcomplicated the surface detail of a normal looking bar wrap job (aka HUGE data/file size increase = not good/wanted). Simplify, get the "wrap diameter" close, adapt, and move forward. Note 2: How GOOD does a fully "built" bike in CAD look vs the partially built stuff before??? Note 3: Absolutely NAILED those SRAM levers, right??

Image A: 1 1/8" stem on Innicycle headset with normal headset spacers that you'd see on a modern threadless-steerer bike. Stem is the inside-wedge type, and this was done to minimize the visual mass as much as possible given the stem's height and position on a tall, slender frame.


Image B: Same as above, but with the spacers removed. You can see how an older or cheaper threadless stem, with its thick steerer wraparound section, looks more "lollipop" than we'd probably like. Certainly for me. But honest representation helps us decide, so I include it. The Innicycle's diameter is nice otherwise (less than the head lug diameter).


Image C: I modified the Innicycle headset, bumping the lower diameter out a hair and creating a 1" steerer section so that a 1" threadless stem (with traditional clamping bolt positions) would appear flush (in diameter) to the rest of the headset/stem assembly. It helps quite a bit.


Image D: Same as Image C but with polished silver seatpost, headset, and stem. Saddle and hood colors switched to black (what I presently own).


Image E: Part way through my initial dozen or so batch of renderings (at the time), I switched to a side view, which I really like. This color combination is Image C, and you can see how the stem angle matches the hood (top edge) angle. Really complementary.


Image F: Up close and personal with the modified Innicycle headset. It's still a pretty "techy" look when looking at the quite traditional overall composition. Silver or black headset/stem--doesn't really matter. This has led to much consternation and mulling over.

RiddleOfSteel

So what do you do with an agreeable-enough stem and headset solution that clashes with a traditional-looking build otherwise? Change the color. 1974 Paramount Part II. Pirate. Carbon Hunter. Remove a big traditional element and let the bike's components do the talking.

Full stealth with a dash of flash at the top. Still modified Innicycle headset.


Standard Innicycle headset, in silver, with a 1 1/8" stem that, apart from its inside wedge/clamping system, imitates a modern, high-end stem with it's minimal steerer wraparound thickness (2mm). If I went the matte black and MA2 route, this would be the setup I'd run.

RiddleOfSteel

But what if a quill stem became an option again, due to the need to run Open 4 wheels and having that composition change not work with the modern headset and stem combination? What if the only truly 73° quill stem out there, of good quality, and actually somewhat available, was the venerable Cinelli 1A? Forget not wanting to mess with a shim, if I can go traditional on that front, I will happily put up with shimming it!

Let's see what it looks like... Nice! Even the SRAM levers play along. And here, I basically build my dream '80s Paramount, branded water bottles included, as a Medici.


Hot side view. You can see the stem angle down eeeeever so slightly, which is accurate. Still looks fine, though (real life mounting will have to confirm good/bad, as always). Angled bar and SRAM levers also plays nice. Whew!


The "Parts I Actually Have" build/composition.


Looking good.


Matte black version. Yes, please.


Classically good looking (to me!).


Hey, how about we go "full ['80s] send" and throw down some hot pink / flamingo / fuchsia and let the dark anodized components bring the heavy contrast? A bit of go-fast, a bit of Miami Vice, and a whole lotta double-takes.


I mean, I'm game if you are, and I am REALLY GAME to do this!


You can let me know how in outer space (or completely grounded!) I am.

RiddleOfSteel

Back to reality.

I visited Recycled Cycles and did some stem-to-stem comparisons as well as lined up a Cinelli 1A stem they had to my frame. Sigh. All angled down noticeably. I brought a threadless stem I'd bought at Bike Works a few weeks prior, and slotted it onto a black 1 1/8" steerer of one of the forks RC had on their rack. It looked pretty darn good! No "lollipop" issues, or at least, ones that would be problematic. At this point, it was high time to put this stem dilemma/torture to bed. The threadless stem, a very svelte and sharp looking 3TTT ARX II Team 100mm unit with a 31.8mm bar clamp diameter, is the chosen stem. Yes, I will have to now source a 31.8mm clamp bar, but I will live. An Innicycle headset will have to be obtained as well.

Not to assume too much, I ended up replicating the 3TTT stem in CAD yesterday, because of course I did. I need to see how it looks! Interesting fact: this 3TTT (31.8mm clamp) stem is 1mm or less wider and taller (in main body/shaft cross-sectional dimension) than the no-name 26.0mm clamp stem, which I found both surprising and encouraging. A quality 31.8mm bar is going to feel even better/less harsh than a 26.0mm bar, if my experience proves correct.

I will show the three final color choices I'm focusing in on--nothing you've seen before, but with the considerable finalization of the headset/stem/bar situation, it will give you an idea of what colors and compositions play best together.

Firstly, the candy red metallic option. A more normal red (like fire engine red) just looks a bit trite, so deep candy it is. Still heavily on the fence about this color working with the stem, but it is what it is...


The stem is a clean-looking unit, I will say. Torx bolts are the fancy pants name of the game here, which...I wish they just used Allen bolts.


Matte/satin black. Still looks great, especially if a silver headset is employed. The continuous black is broken up while not messing up the overall upper frame/bike visual mass balance.


Even better.


Tops in the "lolz" category, but also tops in the "This looks soooo cool" category as well. The difference between leaving the fork crown chrome and painting the fork crown is huge. That "color solidarity" is, from what I witness here, critical in "combating" the untraditional and visually bulkier (compared to a quill stem) threadless headset and stem situation--especially an all-black arrangement. It's a party and people are getting along. Thus it remains a frontrunner.


You can see the "continuous color" from the fork dropouts all the way up to the upper headset cup. The visual "message" is delivered strongly before a new "message," that of the thicker, black headset and stem, is given.


Here's an up close shot of the 3TTT stem. It isn't labeled, and is naturally a little more matte, but this gets the point across well. The lower stem clamp/wrap-to-steerer transition is more of a stem than it seems, but that's CAD and renderings for you. In real life, it looks smaller and thus even better.


Yes, I even got the "3T" cutout into the stem's faceplate, just like the real one.

RiddleOfSteel

Andy, you could always try black & white. A little chocolate chip mint ice cream, eh?

Andy_K 

I prefer spumoni. Maybe some pink bar tape with brown hoods and cables?

mstateglfr 

The pink and mint look neat. A black top half with silver lower half is less neat. Black drivetrain and brakes if the cockpit and seat post are black. Or keep it all silver.
As for all your renderings with various innicycle setups, using the included spacers is best for sure. They dont move since they have a rubber seal and they make the setup look like a smoother transition.

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks for the feedback. I've been basically threading a near-impossible needle on a number of fronts with this bike. Normally, I would be 100% for a fully black drivetrain to match a black stem and seatpost, but I'm trying to be resourceful with the components that I have (and enjoy using). Thankfully there is some late-'80s aesthetic precedent with black stems (and seatposts) used with silver drivetrains and dark anodized aero rims. You obviously see me breaking up the black upper half with a white saddle and brake hoods, and I believe there is success there. The dark anodized rims mirror the black of the upper half more or less, and that helps balance things. Going with a matte/satin black paint color puts black everywhere, thereby eliminating the color balance issues.

As for the Innicycle spacers, they look to be of a standard thickness (and resulting outer diameter). This becomes troublesome, visually, as the outer diameter, as explained in previous posts, is greater than not only the head tube diameter, but the head lugs' diameter. Looks too bulky for this frame size and tubeset diameter. OS tubing or Cannondale frames and this becomes considerably less of an issue, or none at all. I'd need to have made some very slender spacers to eradicate the transition while also not being too bulky. That's a tall order. Basically, I need something--stem, spacers, or Innicycle design--that doesn't exist. With a matte black bike and silver headset, employing a black stem can alleviate the "obvious" form transition issue by having the color transition "run blocker" and distracting the eye from the form transition. Or it can highlight it...

...whatever, I'll figure something out. This thing is either getting made crazy or I'm buying a different frame with a 73° head tube angle to give me an unlocked door to open. Or I'll just let this lie fallow while I focus on my 510....

RiddleOfSteel

Hello, previous selves, just wanted to update everyone (if you care at all) that the frameset has been sold to a good friend (and as yet seldom-posting BF member) and has a bright (in more ways than one!) future ahead for it. He is aware of my "dedicated" efforts (and yours, thank you very much!) here, so hopefully that will help him. And yes, I did send him a detailed photo of the decal placement locations, with measurements.

Kobe 

That's not the ending I was expecting. This feels like the last episode of The Sopranos.

Hopefully the new owner will post on how it turns out.

RiddleOfSteel

Me, too. I had basically parameter'ed myself into a corner and went dark to figure it out. Then I put 42mm tires on my Trek 620 and discovered the ability to go as fast, more easily, and not get beat to a pulp on Seattle roads. On suburban and country roads, as well as smooth bike paths, any bike can and is a champion (which is great!). I don't like near that. I want and need a bike to be able to take on the city streets. I built the Medici one last time early last week or so, albeit with the stiffer DT Swiss wheelset I'm using on the Trek. In a word, "no." Beyond tired of getting jackhammered around town.

The Pro-Strada will be re-chromed from what I've heard, and will give good company to another Pro-Strada in his stable. The Innicycle headset dream lives on in my 620 project (I have it ready to install), which will become reality in a month when a busy powder coating shop gets to it.

1 Lugnut

All’s well that ends well…so they say!
And here I was expecting a gran finale’ 🥲