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Trek 620 on 700x48 Tires??? A $10 New School Frame Shows The Way

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Trek 620 on 700x48 Tires??? A $10 New School Frame Shows The Way

Old 05-29-21, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post



Skinny tubes, horizontal top tube and fat tyres - it's a looker 👌.
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Old 05-29-21, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sdn40 View Post
The proportions thing is real, especially for taller riders. For some, the tall head tube just throws off the look of the bike. It's probably why a lot of tall riders are on the lookout for a Cannondale. The OS tubing takes care of that "odd" look. Just as STI's and modern components eventually made their way into this fabulous forum, we are now entering a crossroads where some of the newer frame technologies are becoming more available at a price point that becomes very attractive. As seen above, looking to achieve certain things can become complicated, and expensive, and sometimes not possible. Riddle mentioned it briefly, but it has flown under the radar what was available for $10. Obviously, that is an extremely fortunate example, but like I said, crossroads.
I recently picked up a prime example of this (pickup scheduled). I wasn't in the market, but we all know how that goes. I didn't believe the picture and the owner had a chuckle as he shared my same thoughts. This isn't your dads 62cm proportioned bike. It looks like a 58cm. Never in a million years did I think I would own a Surly, but here we are, at a price point cheaper than a Walmart bike. 32c here I come. Just like the STI's, at some point you just can't say no. And yes - I'm crossing my fingers that the seatpost is the Dura Ace aero

Your OS tubing comment is an astute one. It "shrinks" a 64cm+ frame to something closer to a 59-60cm, proportionally, and that can make all the difference. I've looked at large ~1990 OS Paramount framesets and thought "That looks like a 60cm." Nope! standard tubing on 65cm+ frames is indeed a delicate balance, even more so when employing large diameter tires (38mm+ IMO).

The $10 Nashbar frameset was indeed a for-a-song price, and would normally be $75-100 on CL. $10 gave room for other components to be bought and not balloon the eventual asking price into unwanted territory.

As a number of early-'00s bikes and framesets reach their desirability nadir (15-20 years old seems to be the trough of a bike's value curve, assuming it is semi-desirable or more in the first place), we will find more of these deals. As a 6'5" rider, from about 1990 to about 2010, give or take a year or two, is the Era of Abandonment (or Great Betrayal) for properly tall production frames. Cannondale, among very few, were the keepers of the flame. Surlys do have a lot to offer, provided the look, weight, and geometry are to one's preference. I've long found them to have much too long a top tube for their stated height/size, with their height/size offerings not being tall enough. I find Somas to be more attractively proportioned (commensurate price increase, naturally) and much closer to fitting me (stack and reach, primarily). That Nashbar frame was revelatory. Trek has made their FX line for at least a decade. Steel, aluminum, or carbon for the forks depending on the level (7.1FX, 7.2FX, 7.3FX, 7.5FX, 7.7FX etc). Twin bottle cage bosses and stack/reach specs, at least at the largest 25" size, to be nearly identical to my 620 and other 25.5" Treks of the mid-'80s. And this is a flat bar hybrid (where a super long TT is the norm), which means drop bar conversions are a snap. 44.5cm to 45cm chainstays (and early-'80s touring bike angles/fork geo), room for 40mm tires if you do it right, V-brakes for great stopping power. Enthusiastic aluminum frame (modern Trek aluminum is a lot of fun). I keep a lookout for a good deal on one as it would be fun to try a modern "hybrid" that possesses considerable vintage touring geometry DNA. Just don't ask me why they put the seat tube bottle cage so freaking low--I don't know either!

Your Pacer looks sharp, and whatever aero seatpost that may be, it looks great. Enjoy!
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Old 05-29-21, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Fast forward some more and we have the additions of two more Specialized Ribcage II bottle cages joining the single one I had. Drops 75g over the silver Sunlites. I have long used the Ribcage cages to denote my top-flight bike, so it is more than fitting that a top-flight frame be given these. I picked up a used carbon seatpost (that actually weighs a little more than my old Trek alloy one...) as well as ported over the 3TTT stem and stem conversion from the Medici (for fit setup purposes). Carbon Zipp bars drop a ton of weight (not cheap, naturally) and eliminate a ton of road buzz. The tops angle back slightly a la Nitto Noodle, which I really like. The aforementioned used DT Swiss R23 Spline (what an ugly name!) wheelset buy drops another 300g out of the wheelset weight, and restores some springiness when accelerating and climbing out of the saddle. Tire width bumps to about 39.5mm on these 22.7mm wide (external) rims, edging closer to that nominal 700x42 size labeling. I switch to a 7g heavier but much more comfortable black/white Prologo Scratch Pro saddle as well. Lighter Brooks bar tape (vs the other black tapes I had to choose from), yes really! Changing from bar-ends to DT shifters netted another 159g drop.

So as it sits now, I'm at a hair under 23.5 lbs. Incredible! Yes, I am still a bit heavier than ctak's 24" '85 720, but that's to be expected with a larger and thicker gauge tubeset as a starting point. It's perfect for me, so I'm fine. Buying back my old Dura-Ace WH-7850s (C24 predecessor) would drop another 175g, and a full drivetrain change to a 2x10 (50/34 up front and 11-36 out back) could net me another 200g or more. Latex or light weight inner tubes? Another 70-80g. I know it seems silly to have a large touring bike that weighs closer to 10kg or under 23 lbs, but I'm up for it so long as I don't burn my wallet down (and sell off the other parts to offset the costs). 23.5 lbs feels good, and "light" when I pick it up. I love the aesthetic balance of a 3x10 setup, so I am happy to leave it for now. One step at a time for changes, you know?
I've definitely enjoyed following your 620 project through its various incarnations, both in person and through thread updates. No doubt by the time it has received its new posts and pigment, 'Super' status will be nigh..
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Old 05-30-21, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Those are some very good looking brakes!

Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Fast forward some more and we have the additions of two more Specialized Ribcage II bottle cages joining the single one I had. Drops 75g over the silver Sunlites. I have long used the Ribcage cages to denote my top-flight bike, so it is more than fitting that a top-flight frame be given these. I picked up a used carbon seatpost (that actually weighs a little more than my old Trek alloy one...) as well as ported over the 3TTT stem and stem conversion from the Medici (for fit setup purposes). Carbon Zipp bars drop a ton of weight (not cheap, naturally) and eliminate a ton of road buzz. The tops angle back slightly a la Nitto Noodle, which I really like. The aforementioned used DT Swiss R23 Spline (what an ugly name!) wheelset buy drops another 300g out of the wheelset weight, and restores some springiness when accelerating and climbing out of the saddle. Tire width bumps to about 39.5mm on these 22.7mm wide (external) rims, edging closer to that nominal 700x42 size labeling. I switch to a 7g heavier but much more comfortable black/white Prologo Scratch Pro saddle as well. Lighter Brooks bar tape (vs the other black tapes I had to choose from), yes really! Changing from bar-ends to DT shifters netted another 159g drop.

So as it sits now, I'm at a hair under 23.5 lbs. Incredible! Yes, I am still a bit heavier than ctak's 24" '85 720, but that's to be expected with a larger and thicker gauge tubeset as a starting point. It's perfect for me, so I'm fine. Buying back my old Dura-Ace WH-7850s (C24 predecessor) would drop another 175g, and a full drivetrain change to a 2x10 (50/34 up front and 11-36 out back) could net me another 200g or more. Latex or light weight inner tubes? Another 70-80g. I know it seems silly to have a large touring bike that weighs closer to 10kg or under 23 lbs, but I'm up for it so long as I don't burn my wallet down (and sell off the other parts to offset the costs). 23.5 lbs feels good, and "light" when I pick it up. I love the aesthetic balance of a 3x10 setup, so I am happy to leave it for now. One step at a time for changes, you know?

Beautiful bike and impressively light too! It was already a looker with the silver rims but this certainly brings it to a new level. Curious to hear more about that Innicycle stem.
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Old 06-06-21, 09:59 PM
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Got the 620 back from Cyclefab on Friday (so, a few days ago). Came out great! I measure 79mm front spacing and 82mm rear spacing, so we're in a great spot. Cyclefab (or simply, Colin) set the canti post height to the standard 283mm from the axle, which, while shaving off a few millimeters from Maximum Vertical Clearance Possibility, still clear the 42mm tires by 4-6mm depending on if it's the front or rear. No 42s and fenders dreams for me any more but really...was I going to? All good info for next time (aka another bike) should I go down that route. The canti post brazing is well done and looks period correct while also allowing for easy water drainage.

Assembled frame upon bringing it home.


Who gets three spring tension setting holes per post now? Massive upgrade (will still use the center, lol). More seriously, but this is one angle that shows the slightly outboard setting of the fork's cant posts. As you'll see in other views, it actually isn't that bad at all. REALLY excited about that!


Direct front view. The canti post unit only minorly breaks out of the fork blade's "silhouette"--sweet.


Direct rear/back view. This lateral protrusion will not be an issue once powder coated.


Just a small rear drain hole, something that we'd normally see on the inside of a fork blade or seat stay, but since this is a narrower fork with requested wider post spacing, we get this.


Here are the rears, up from 77mm to 82mm. Looking good.
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Old 06-06-21, 10:32 PM
  #56  
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These next photos will be the last you'll see of it in this original color etc. Colin mentioned finding rust underneath the paint as he removed it for canti work--certainly something I've known about (and mentioned to him). Good excuse for a new color, right?

Below is the "roller" I quickly built up yesterday to test a fully operational TRP mini-V braking situation with the lever type I'd be using. Firstly, it felt fantastic to coast down a crummy, bumpy hill on the 620 with its 42mm tires again. I have missed them! Secondly, the brakes work phenomenally well, and that's with the pads not even bedded in, let alone Koolstops! And the brake lever effort? LIGHT. Supid light. I tell ya, man, cantis are nice for their time etc etc etc, but they are trash in comparison to the incredible power-to-effort ratio of V-brakes or mini-V's. Like, I'm all for the romance and stuff, but objectively it's a lightyear's of improvement with the TRPs.

Pretty casual looking "bike" here, but in real life, leaning against the couch or the wall, it has presence. It will have even more soon.


Front perspective of the new TRPs. The new posts don't break the fork blades' inner "silhouette" which means chucking fully inflated 42mm tires into the fork is as easy as it would be if no brakes existed at all. Wonderful!


V-brakes doing what they do: standing tall and wide. A little camera foreshortening to make it look a touch wider but I don't even care--it looks good to me and performs excellently.


Thanks to considerable fork offset, the 283mm axle-to-post height (vs. 294mm or something before) makes for the pads sitting much farther up in their slots than I had anticipated. Still, tire clearance is good, so I have no issue.


Rear brakes looking a lot better than they did before. The wheel still sits a touch off no matter what I do (spins dead true though), and humorously, the fender mount on the brake bridge is skewed 0.5mm to the left.


Good tire clearance in the rear as well.


Notice that, due to no fork offset, the axle-to-post height of 283mm makes for pads lower in the slots here.


More of a macro view here, and as always, "paint's not compelte" caveat here. In real life, it looks good/fine/not out of place or proportion. And I do away with all the crazy ship rigging at the front. Super clean and stupid easy to set up. I just can't tell you enough how crazy light the lever effort is. So good!


The big arc that the brake cable follows from top tube to wide-radius noodle is casually bold. Welcome to the 620!
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Old 06-07-21, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Looking good What color are you using for the 2.0 version?

Would you mind measuring the height and width of the tyre for me? Maybe I can fit that one on my K-M Graveller with fenders if it is not too big.
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Old 06-07-21, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Looking good What color are you using for the 2.0 version?

Would you mind measuring the height and width of the tyre for me? Maybe I can fit that one on my K-M Graveller with fenders if it is not too big.
Thanks! Color, after MUCH internal and external debate, will be a continuation of my former 1974 Paramount: satin black. I loved how it contrasted with chrome lugs and polished components. The white lettering looked sharp, as did the eventual tan wall tires. I like so many colors, and ordered a number of swatches to see what they looked like. A deep metallic red was the other leading candidate, but such a 'modern' color with old graphics/fonts was stumping me. It would have more easily allowed contrast with either polished or black components, but still, the graphics had me hanging up. Satin black is a known and very well-loved quantity, and between the former Paramount and former CAAD10 Black Inc. Disc that I also built up, I wanted the 620 to have that same presence. It's a "throw down" bike in several ways--very large size, very long wheelbase, large tires, serious performance-oriented components, and in general a Counterpoint to modern steel & aluminum big tire (gravel/adventure/touring) bikes. A good bit rogue, but serious about it.

The DT Swiss rims measure 22.7mm externally, and ~16.7mm internally. These Soma Supple Vitesse EX 700x42 tires, at 40-45 PSI, on that rim, measure 39.0mm wide x 35.5mm "tall" (aka height above the top of the rim lip).





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Old 06-09-21, 01:28 AM
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Bike has been dropped off and now the four or so week wait begins. New decals ordered as well, and that was today, after much Photoshopping, research, and mental effort. A light metallic silver will be the primary color, and a nicely dark grey will be the striped "shadowing" for the TREK and USA logos. The greyscale theme keeps in line with the (mid) 1980s. I considered gold/light gold for the John Player Special touch, but it's the wrong decade and things just didn't quite line up there. I also considered white main graphics like my Paramount (and various late-'80s road/race Schwinns), but concluded that it was a bit too "obvious" or stark. The 620's original graphic scheme, along with most Treks of that era (and before), are not as readily indulgent of "in-your-face" compositions. They'll step out confidently, but stop short of being over-the-top. The silver/dark grey graphics continue that ethos, and allow the 'techy' era 620 to be a composition other than its original blue. It's going to look so good when it's done!
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Old 06-09-21, 03:27 AM
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Looking really good! Man, that machine’s going to crank out the fun. You’ve got me wondering if those brakes will fit under the post-mounted racks on my Raleigh… Better braking is the low hanging fruit of improvement there.

Looking forward to seeing this back from paint. Satin black is a nice choice and one that would be at the top of my list for my next bike given the choice.

Enjoy!
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Old 06-09-21, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir_Name View Post
Looking really good! Man, that machine’s going to crank out the fun. You’ve got me wondering if those brakes will fit under the post-mounted racks on my Raleigh… Better braking is the low hanging fruit of improvement there.

Looking forward to seeing this back from paint. Satin black is a nice choice and one that would be at the top of my list for my next bike given the choice.

Enjoy!
Thanks! I have always thought the concept of linear/V-brakes is an extremely logical one as they answer the question of "What is the best way to make brake pads, that need to move horizontally for stopping, do so in the most efficient manner?" They work great on run-of-the-mill hybrids and MTBs before (and during) them. I am thankful that the 620 and me are a great match and thus, in a market like this, with a one-bike goal (ok, the 510 gets to stay, too...), it's a bike/frame worth spending some money on and modernizing for the next several decades.

I don't know of the Raleigh you're talking about, but like anything, the post width/spacing, post height (or is it drop?) relative to the centerline of the rim brake track, and rim width all play a part in the matter. I am a fan of being able to stop, and stop NOW, when needed. I'm also a fan of the braking system not resisting my efforts to try and stop. I find many a vintage setup to be considerably less than adequate, and one can forget about emergency stopping. Though, in a humorous twist, I've been using single pivot brake calipers (Dura-Ace 7402 short reach, and Dia-Compe G standard reach) with the same Koolstop pads, against MA2 rims (same wheelset), with modern levers, and the braking is quite strong. Well into the satisfactory range and good for emergency stops or steep hills--and this compared to dual pivot calipers, which I am very fond of. Sometimes it's the combination of things that just works, disproving honestly-obtained knowledge and resulting theories. And the Dia-Compe brakes aren't even flexy!

On the "casually" weight weenie front, with a much lighter crankset situation (for not much effort at all) and lighter wheels (that I don't have any more), I could be well into the 22.x lb range. For several reasons, I'll just switch to a double crankset I already have, and bump the cassette to a 32T low (from 28T) and run a simplified system (3x to 2x). [Crankset Q-factor and color/finish matching the derailleurs are the main drivers, plus I already own it/don't have to buy it] That will get me to 23.2 lbs and that's a good enough laugh for all of us to have. Of course, my nearly-as-long Trek 510 (25.5" size as well) weighs 23.1 lbs with zero weight weenie effort put into it--just decent used components and 33mm tires. That is the power of being spotted 353g in frame/fork/headset weight as it would otherwise be just under 24 lbs, which is what the 620 was, prior to mounting 42mm tires and much heavier inner tubes.
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Old 06-12-21, 02:17 AM
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As I wait the remaining three or so weeks for the 620's frame to be recoated, I turn my focus onto gearing and finishing kit. TRP's RRL levers in black (with black, smoked silver, or carbon blades) are a fantastic look, but their lever body to bar angle/interface has always looked off to me. They take after the angles of vintage levers (like, the non-aero kind), where the brake lever body is a 'growth' out of the bar instead of a sweeping off it, like many modern STI/Ergo levers do. I was able to hold some in addition to testing that angle theory today. Peaked lever body (on the longitudinal axis), concave lever body profile (when viewed from the side), and weird body-to-bar interface angle just struck the TRPs out. So sad! They are a fantastic looking lever, and certainly would fit the ethos of the 620. Alas, the Tektro R200's reign supreme.

Gearing has also been a mental wrestling match. I have taken my Trek 510 a total (over two days) of just over 66 miles, with mileage split pretty evenly (30, 35) over those two days. Not terribly impressive at all for big commuters etc, but for my left knee's continued recovery, doing a metric century over two days, even with stops, is a big deal for durability in being able to repeat high effort days without my knee(s) letting their displeasure be known. Very good news! I hope to do a 60+ miler within the next week to notch that in my belt. It will also match or slightly exceed the mileage I did on a BF member ride outside of Port Angeles several years ago (pre-injury saga). That would be a really cool thing to match again.

So in that vein, my standard "full road" gearing for Seattle is 53/39 up front and 11-28T out back, over a 10-speed cassette. As I want to keep my polished silver drivetrain on the 620, and as I also want to employ my Chorus crankset (because my knees really like the Q-factor etc), I need(ed) to figure out if 1) going to a 32T big cog was even possible for my 7700 GS derailleur 2) if a resulting 39-32T low gear was even worth it (given that I could go 3x10 and have a 26-28 low gear).

Here we have part of a SRAM 11-36 10-speed cassette mated to three 10-speed Shimano cogs. 9th position (2nd largest) cog is a 32T. Does the 7700 GS make it? Yes! The B-tension screw needs to be wound all the way in, but the rear derailleur happily shifts to and from it!


Visual proof, haha. 36T cog capability is an emphatic no. But dang, 32T without trouble is impressive!


B-tension screw wound in all the way.


The whole drivetrain ensemble. This was earlier in the week. Tonight I put this "cassette" onto the actual rear wheel the 510 is using and tackled near a dozen varying grades in the neighborhood around my apartment. The varying grades (where you have to put in some effort at least) begin around 10% and go up to almost 27%. ~21% grades are the usual killers and they are prevalent on Queen Anne hill. For tired legs, the 32T cog in the back was an absolute game changer (over a 28T). As I approach a 1:1 ratio up any steep incline, I dislike the lack of distance covered for the effort. Sort of a weird diminishing returns situation. Plus, past about 20%, I don't like to be seated as I'm either leaning forward like crazy, or feeling like I'll fall over backwards. Standing is preferred.

So, an 11-32T 10-speed cassette is a go for me/the 620, which allows me to keep the polished silver drivetrain ensemble together for maximum visual cohesion as well as maximum contrast/effect on a newly satin black 620 color. In the mean time, the 510 has proven an incredible long-distance mileage machine--in the saddle, with the lower drivetrain components you see making up that "Dream Team." That will get ported over to the 620 and I will have to fill the void on the 510 with (obviously) equal componentry, of which I am halfway there. I'll need chainrings and a front derailleur to do so, presently.
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Old 06-26-21, 01:24 AM
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Just over two and a half weeks into The Waiting over here at Camp Super 620, and the last of the components has joined the party. A Shimano XT M771 11-32t 10-speed cassette arrived in the mail several days ago. Beautiful piece! Its claimed weight is 280g with lock ring. With my scale, it was pretty much right on the money at 281g. I'll need to weigh my 11-28T Ultegra 10-speed cassette, but if it's anything like the official listing, it'll be 230g or so (including 1mm spacer). The end result here is a 50g bump just as a 2x FD and Chorus crankset and BB come into the picture and drop more weight. This is more amusing right now rather than any weight weenie pursuit. The aesthetic composition complements the road superiority mission, and "just" a 32T big cog acting opposite a 39T chainring will be just fine.

The 11-32T cassette, for anybody curious has cog tooth counts as such: 32 - 28 - 25 - 22 - 20 - 18 - 16 - 14 - 12 - 11

I am hoping that within the next week and a half, I will get communications from both the powder coater and Velocals that things are done. My 510 has done very well in the 620's stead, even being my riding partner in covering 70.2 miles in a single ride--my longest ever! I know this may not sound impressive to many, but for me and certainly for my left knee, this was huge. The 620 with it's larger tires, longer still WB, and more comfortable saddle, will be even better, and I can't wait. Getting antsy!

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Old 06-26-21, 07:31 PM
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Got the XT cassette mounted, because it was something to do in 100° heat. This will be a super interesting post.

Yup, looks like a cassette. The old Ultegra was 234g (without 1mm spacer), so I'm only "gaining" 47g in weight.


This is a 2.0-2.5mm spacer that I used with the Ultegra cassette, and it worked fine here. Maybe the cassette is a touch more outboard than I expected...


...but in the frame (I slotted into my bare Fuji S12-S LTD frame) it's got plenty of room/clearance for the chain and the seat stay.
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Old 06-27-21, 06:53 PM
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Did you ever mention how wide those 42's actually are? I went back and read through but I did not notice it if you did
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Old 06-27-21, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beicster View Post
Did you ever mention how wide those 42's actually are? I went back and read through but I did not notice it if you did
I did, and it's up there. But depending on pressure (40 vs 45 PSI) they are different. Presently, on the DT Swiss rims, they're 39mm on the nose at around 40 PSI.
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Old 07-02-21, 01:31 PM
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After waiting three and a half weeks of an "about four weeks" lead time, I got the call that the 620 frame and fork were complete! I was on my way to visiting a friend when I received the voice message, and it was too late in the day to--should I have been available--endure five crappy sections of I-5 on the way to and from Olympia in any sort of sane, acceptable travel time. So I did it yesterday morning (9:30am to noon, more or less) and still had a few crappy sections of traffic. Get it together, western Washington!

Some photos of my "I can't believe it looks this good!!!" 620, courtesy of my nearsighted iphone8:


That satin sheen is dynamite!
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Old 07-02-21, 01:46 PM
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I spent most of yesterday helping some friends move after getting home from Olympia, so when I got home it was time to install the Innicycle headset!

A preview of an assembled frameset:


Night time wrenching. There's this machined ridge that, certainly for the home-headset-installer, has to be accounted for. I did so by putting a 20mm 1 1/8" spacer inside the cup against its flat surface and then having my homemade tool press against the spacer. A single Innicycle logo/graphic exists, so I elected to put it facing forward.


[Work magically happens "off camera"] Alas, the final product! Lots of grease on bearings, cups, threads and races later and we have the beginnings of 50 Shade of Black.


"Top cap" that secures the top piece/quill to the steerer and locks the bearing preload and entire assembly in.


Upper cup logo centered. Whew.


Lower one as well. Whew 2x.


The powder coating minimally affected frame detail--certainly well within my tolerance/expectation window. A very good thing. No textured finish. The lower headset assembly has a taller stack height than the original Stronglight unit, so the geometry is ever so slightly changed. It will likely be impossible to notice.


Upper assembly view. So very clean.


The First Silver (back on the bike) portends what is to come!
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Old 07-02-21, 01:59 PM
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The next step, aside from waiting for Velocals to get my order completed and mailed to me [I am in the 15-20 business day window presently, but man would it really help a guy out if they hustled it along. I know, wait to fill up enough orders to make a print run most cost-efficient regarding material usage, but dang...], is actually several steps. I do have a head badge to mount, but I put the frameset up on its wheels to set saddle position and, crucially, stem/bar/brake lever positions. I aim to replicate the 510's setup on this 620 as that proved comfortable on my 70-miler two weeks ago.

So, you all get a good preview of the overall proportion of the bike. Silver+dark grey decals, the gold head badge, and the silver drivetrain will do wonders to bring out the intrigue, depth, and contrast. CAN'T. WAIT. For now, it looks like I'll need a 110mm stem, a 5-7mm stem mounting point drop, bar rotation up (not pointing downward), and brake lever reposition. I'll be running the stem with no spacers below it to 1) not bulk up the top segment of the bike and introduce an aesthetic imbalance to the bike, and 2) well, I don't need to as I've run this stem on my quill conversion with no spacers directly pressed on by the stem. Save weight, work properly, and look better. Works for me!

(Bottom bracket added for more accurate saddle measuring and setting purposes)
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Old 07-02-21, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
The next step, aside from waiting for Velocals to get my order completed and mailed to me [I am in the 15-20 business day window presently, but man would it really help a guy out if they hustled it along. I know, wait to fill up enough orders to make a print run most cost-efficient regarding material usage, but dang...], is actually several steps. I do have a head badge to mount, but I put the frameset up on its wheels to set saddle position and, crucially, stem/bar/brake lever positions. I aim to replicate the 510's setup on this 620 as that proved comfortable on my 70-miler two weeks ago.

So, you all get a good preview of the overall proportion of the bike. Silver+dark grey decals, the gold head badge, and the silver drivetrain will do wonders to bring out the intrigue, depth, and contrast. CAN'T. WAIT. For now, it looks like I'll need a 110mm stem, a 5-7mm stem mounting point drop, bar rotation up (not pointing downward), and brake lever reposition. I'll be running the stem with no spacers below it to 1) not bulk up the top segment of the bike and introduce an aesthetic imbalance to the bike, and 2) well, I don't need to as I've run this stem on my quill conversion with no spacers directly pressed on by the stem. Save weight, work properly, and look better. Works for me!

(Bottom bracket added for more accurate saddle measuring and setting purposes)
Visually, I think it looks great with the threadless stem because of frame size and slender tubing, the stem is offset by the saddle. Taping those (31.8mm ?) bars will prob make them look a bit off.

I have a question about your choice of brakes: as you've altered the mounting posts how come you didn't consider centre pulls?
(Or maybe you did and I missed it in previous posts?!)
Direct mounted centre pulls, with perpendicular arms, have been the best rim brakes I've ever experienced.
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Old 07-02-21, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
Visually, I think it looks great with the threadless stem because of frame size and slender tubing, the stem is offset by the saddle. Taping those (31.8mm ?) bars will prob make them look a bit off.

I have a question about your choice of brakes: as you've altered the mounting posts how come you didn't consider centre pulls?
(Or maybe you did and I missed it in previous posts?!)
Direct mounted centre pulls, with perpendicular arms, have been the best rim brakes I've ever experienced.
Thanks. I sweated the Innicycle + threadless stem considerably, mostly in my Medici Pro-Strada build thread (via CAD work) and then a bit with this 620 (also in CAD). Thankfully, the visual bulk of the wheels/tires anchor the composition well. With the Medici, not only did I have to deal with thin (standard) tubing, but also a slender wheel (or rather, rim) and tire setup. No visual mass increase in the lower portion of that composition.

As for the bar tape, it will be no thicker than any other handlebar from 25.0 to 31.8mm clamp. The clamp diameter is 31.8mm, but since all brake levers and shifters employ the standard 23.8-24.2mm bar clamp diameter, the bar tape situation will be unchanged as many bars taper up to their clamp diameters pretty closely to the clamp area. Every company runs the taper differently, especially with modern, shaped carbon bars. That was something I had to take into consideration.

What brake types have you experienced apart from direct/post mounted center pulls (like on late-70s Centurion Pro-Tours)? And what makes them the best for you? Power? Modulation? Looks? Effort level? Setup ease? Center pulls, to me, are visually bulky/ungainly, and their aesthetic is dated--I am looking forward on this 1985 frameset (several years past the last lone use of center pulls by Trek in their 1982 728, before that was ~1977). One has to have both front and rear cable stops (like canti brakes) which often add cable friction due to routing that employs tight/tighter bends, especially with under-the-tape cable routing for the front brake. Return springs on center pulls (and pretty much every brake type back then) were/are strong, and to me that is completely unnecessary--modern quality brakes require much less effort. Center pulls are height-from-rim dependent, cantis and V-brakes are free from that--this all meaning I don't have to worry about tire or fender encroachment from above. The setup for center pulls, while not as much of a faff as cantis, are more than the other types, and if they're going to be a hassle they better look cool. Nothing says legit touring bike like proper wide-set cantis, certainly to me. The only rim brake system that employs horizontal cable movement (at the 'caliper') to enact horizontal pad movement is a V-brake ("direct pull"). That is as logical and efficient as it gets, and as a result, even cheap V-brakes (set up correctly) are absolute vices, and without having to squeeze very hard at all. The TRP CX 8.4s look incredible and work with modern road levers. They are also a breeze to set up. They also have phenomenal stopping power, and whether braking lightly or heavily, require the effort of a hydraulic disc brake lever user, which is to say, very light. I am a tall 200 lb rider who lives in an area with very active city traffic and steep hills (10-20% grades). I would greatly appreciate my braking system not resisting my efforts to employ it to slow or stop, especially if I have to slow or stop NOW.

This is a 1985 frame taking it, in a number of ways, to the 2021 bike crowd. Some direct engagement (aesthetics, braking, componentry, large tires, wider rims) to go along with some contrarian elements (DT shifters, 2x system, silver componentry in places, steel touring frameset). It takes a lot of great things--ok maybe just the killer frameset that pairs really well with me and my style of riding--and improves upon it in all areas, to a considerable degree.

If you haven't tried V-brakes, I'd give them a shot. They're on 8 million cheap and expensive hybrids and mountain bikes, and have even been on a number of CX bikes (hence these TRP's origins). They may not look better/cooler than cantis, or side pull calipers, but they work better than them all while not looking too bad while they're doing it.
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Old 07-03-21, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Thanks. I sweated the Innicycle + threadless stem considerably, mostly in my Medici Pro-Strada build thread (via CAD work) and then a bit with this 620 (also in CAD). Thankfully, the visual bulk of the wheels/tires anchor the composition well. With the Medici, not only did I have to deal with thin (standard) tubing, but also a slender wheel (or rather, rim) and tire setup. No visual mass increase in the lower portion of that composition.

As for the bar tape, it will be no thicker than any other handlebar from 25.0 to 31.8mm clamp. The clamp diameter is 31.8mm, but since all brake levers and shifters employ the standard 23.8-24.2mm bar clamp diameter, the bar tape situation will be unchanged as many bars taper up to their clamp diameters pretty closely to the clamp area. Every company runs the taper differently, especially with modern, shaped carbon bars. That was something I had to take into consideration.

What brake types have you experienced apart from direct/post mounted center pulls (like on late-70s Centurion Pro-Tours)? And what makes them the best for you? Power? Modulation? Looks? Effort level? Setup ease? Center pulls, to me, are visually bulky/ungainly, and their aesthetic is dated--I am looking forward on this 1985 frameset (several years past the last lone use of center pulls by Trek in their 1982 728, before that was ~1977). One has to have both front and rear cable stops (like canti brakes) which often add cable friction due to routing that employs tight/tighter bends, especially with under-the-tape cable routing for the front brake. Return springs on center pulls (and pretty much every brake type back then) were/are strong, and to me that is completely unnecessary--modern quality brakes require much less effort. Center pulls are height-from-rim dependent, cantis and V-brakes are free from that--this all meaning I don't have to worry about tire or fender encroachment from above. The setup for center pulls, while not as much of a faff as cantis, are more than the other types, and if they're going to be a hassle they better look cool. Nothing says legit touring bike like proper wide-set cantis, certainly to me. The only rim brake system that employs horizontal cable movement (at the 'caliper') to enact horizontal pad movement is a V-brake ("direct pull"). That is as logical and efficient as it gets, and as a result, even cheap V-brakes (set up correctly) are absolute vices, and without having to squeeze very hard at all. The TRP CX 8.4s look incredible and work with modern road levers. They are also a breeze to set up. They also have phenomenal stopping power, and whether braking lightly or heavily, require the effort of a hydraulic disc brake lever user, which is to say, very light. I am a tall 200 lb rider who lives in an area with very active city traffic and steep hills (10-20% grades). I would greatly appreciate my braking system not resisting my efforts to employ it to slow or stop, especially if I have to slow or stop NOW.

This is a 1985 frame taking it, in a number of ways, to the 2021 bike crowd. Some direct engagement (aesthetics, braking, componentry, large tires, wider rims) to go along with some contrarian elements (DT shifters, 2x system, silver componentry in places, steel touring frameset). It takes a lot of great things--ok maybe just the killer frameset that pairs really well with me and my style of riding--and improves upon it in all areas, to a considerable degree.

If you haven't tried V-brakes, I'd give them a shot. They're on 8 million cheap and expensive hybrids and mountain bikes, and have even been on a number of CX bikes (hence these TRP's origins). They may not look better/cooler than cantis, or side pull calipers, but they work better than them all while not looking too bad while they're doing it.
Well, I've experienced almost every brake system available, from flintston'ing (fixed gear) to disc brakes, in the past 15 years of cycling (started young)
I am very familiar with vbrakes and their power, still vividly remember being thrown over the handlebars, a few times. I remember one instance when i braked hard and was thrown over rhe handlebars upwards, bike fell on top of me whike continuing to tumble down a slope. When I got home, there were tyre marks in my armpits and all over my ribs.

Unfortunately haven't come across a frame that I liked with centre pull posts, but I will get a custom frame at some point.
My personal fav modern brakes are Dura Ace 9100 side pulls.
I have riding buddies riding with direct mount 9100 brakes and they rave about them, technically those are modern vbrakes, however haven't had the pleasure yet.

A couple months back, I almost put up with vbrakes as I was considering a Soma Grand Randonneur v2 frameset, for which I would have chosen Paul Mini Motos.

As far as modulation and progressiveness goes, IMO, a brake system needs to be fully tested in order to understand the modulation available for that specific system. Meaning that I need to ride very fast and brake very hard a few dozen times for muscle memory.
I don't think most people understand that and 'modulation' gets thrown around a lot, possibly mixed up with 'slowing down gently'.
edit: I am also 195lbs lol, but, in the gym rat category, not tall people category, 5'10"/ 5'11" on a good day, so I'm giving braking power a run for it's money hehe.

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Old 07-04-21, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Schlafen View Post
Well, I've experienced almost every brake system available, from flintston'ing (fixed gear) to disc brakes, in the past 15 years of cycling (started young)
I am very familiar with vbrakes and their power, still vividly remember being thrown over the handlebars, a few times. I remember one instance when i braked hard and was thrown over rhe handlebars upwards, bike fell on top of me whike continuing to tumble down a slope. When I got home, there were tyre marks in my armpits and all over my ribs.

Unfortunately haven't come across a frame that I liked with centre pull posts, but I will get a custom frame at some point.
My personal fav modern brakes are Dura Ace 9100 side pulls.
I have riding buddies riding with direct mount 9100 brakes and they rave about them, technically those are modern vbrakes, however haven't had the pleasure yet.

A couple months back, I almost put up with vbrakes as I was considering a Soma Grand Randonneur v2 frameset, for which I would have chosen Paul Mini Motos.

As far as modulation and progressiveness goes, IMO, a brake system needs to be fully tested in order to understand the modulation available for that specific system. Meaning that I need to ride very fast and brake very hard a few dozen times for muscle memory.
I don't think most people understand that and 'modulation' gets thrown around a lot, possibly mixed up with 'slowing down gently'.
edit: I am also 195lbs lol, but, in the gym rat category, not tall people category, 5'10"/ 5'11" on a good day, so I'm giving braking power a run for it's money hehe.
I'm confident I'll be very happy with a fully-functioning bike with mini-Vs (my glider 'build' just to test brakes only with no drivetrain was very promising). Plenty of bike journalist fear-mongering with "Gee oh man these new brake sure are powerful, but I just don't know about their ability to modulate. Maybe they aren't as safe, I guess. More like an on-off switch, ya know?" drivel back in the day and even to today. Like nuance today, sensing feedback and dexterity seem to be utterly elusive to "bike testers" as they just caveman their way through an evaluation. It's exactly how I brake, too: digitally. No brakes or FULL ON. Get real, "experts." I've run hydraulic discs before on a road bike (Ultegra level), and the breathless claims of life-changing power and ease ran right into the reality of crappy fork feel when engaging the brakes, the unpleasant (normal) noise that they make, the finicky nature of the pads and their proneness to contamination, and the non-revelatory nature of the braking power. The ease of lever pull was nice, but not nice enough to put up with everything else, including the price, though maybe I'd be fine giving it a shot with mechanical discs at some point, should I get the wild idea to. I'm very happy with 7800 Dura-Ace calipers and good pads otherwise.
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Old 07-04-21, 11:51 AM
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In general updates, I just received an email from Velocals that the decals are shipping!! This was yesterday. The label has been created, so I assume that sometime in this coming week they will arrive.

A 110mm will have to be obtained as well. The current 100mm 3T still works, of course, but to get the fit where it needs to be, a little longer will be better. Finding one that aesthetically works with the 620 will be a challenge. I exhausted one local option and still have another to go. Don't want to roll via ebay if I don't have to--it's time to get this bike back on the road.
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Old 07-06-21, 07:21 PM
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Since watched pots never boil (aka waiting for my decal order to arrive), it was off to buy a pipe cutter for my Innicycle 'steerer', because nothing says logic like buying a Park Tool steerer cutter online and waiting days to get it. Or taking it to a bike shop and hoping they have one, because any shlub can cut a tube with a hack saw, including me. So I got to the cutting of the 'steerer' and now have a tool I can use for future home jobs or meth-driven copper pipe extractions... The cut was precise, and it may have been better to have it sawed--it certainly would have been a lot faster--but I got it done and things filed nice and square. I took off 11mm of length, and it looks a lot better!



Gorilla Glue for the very original (and imperfect) head badge, now properly vertically centered. Taped just to hold it--like it needed it.


The black edges of the head badge were showing the metal below, so I touched them up. A lot cleaner.


Looking really good now, I must say. Even barely "advanced" since last time, the proportion of the steerer/stem is dialed and the mounted head badge starts to put some 'personality' (and color) to the frameset.
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