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First Time Chain Waxer Calling on Chain Waxing Gurus

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First Time Chain Waxer Calling on Chain Waxing Gurus

Old 07-27-21, 09:26 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I've only ever used Molten Speed Wax. I'd seen the home brew formula posted above, but didn't want to bother tracking down and paying for shipping on all the proper ingredients. Besides, the MSW was less than 20 bucks and, more than a year later, half of it is still in the bag, untouched - I'm a-okay with that kind of value for convenience.
I haven't used Molten Speed Wax but it doesn't surprise me that it is lasting a long time. The PTFE and MoS2 cost me less than $20, and with the smallest containers I could find I now have a lifetime supply. I just need to grab a block of wax to make a new batch. I figure a 1 lb batch of wax mix cost me less than $3.50 and lasts for at least 2 years, or about 10,000 miles re-waxing the chain every 300-350 miles (30-35 applications.)

BTW, I found that CeramicSpeed has the Velo News chain lube tests on their website (click the "Download Full Test Report" button). In the original test plain paraffin wax was the lowest loss chain lubricant, in the second test Molten Speed Wax was the lowest loss.
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Old 07-27-21, 10:25 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by RGMN View Post
I haven't used Molten Speed Wax but it doesn't surprise me that it is lasting a long time. The PTFE and MoS2 cost me less than $20, and with the smallest containers I could find I now have a lifetime supply. I just need to grab a block of wax to make a new batch. I figure a 1 lb batch of wax mix cost me less than $3.50 and lasts for at least 2 years, or about 10,000 miles re-waxing the chain every 300-350 miles (30-35 applications.)

BTW, I found that CeramicSpeed has the Velo News chain lube tests on their website (click the "Download Full Test Report" button). In the original test plain paraffin wax was the lowest loss chain lubricant, in the second test Molten Speed Wax was the lowest loss.
For me, it was really a matter of ease of entry - the question about getting the right ingredients ("pfffft - those PTFE granules are way too big!") and the delayed shipping times just made it easier for me to spend a little more and get on with it.

Sure, I looked at the math before purchasing, too - I think that I paid $18, including shipping - and I knew that I'd be paying 5x-10x more in the long run. I know that some people like to look at relative costs to inform purchases but, particularly with low ticket items, I don't think that it always makes sense. A product or service that's 10x more expensive doesn't necessarily have to be 10x better, not when you're ultimately talking about a product that'll last years and a price difference that'll only get you a couple of Happy Meals.

I'll probably put the ingredients on a shopping list and buy them at some point, but I'll keep recommending options like MSW to noobs. Many people already perceive waxing as a faff, so lowering the bar of entry is a good thing and it can keep people from talking themselves out of something that might otherwise be a fruitful endeavor.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:18 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by RGMN View Post
Stop by your local auto parts store and get a can of dipping carburetor cleaner. These usually are in a 1 gallon can and have a basket you can drop the chain in. Used one of these for years to clean bike parts, after the carb cleaner got tired and loaded up I used OMS in it. It was a nice, convenient way to solvent clean the chain (and other bike parts)
Thank you for posting an alternative to OMS which is actually available in SoCal.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:23 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by gotrek99 View Post
Some chains are directional and meant to go on a specific way which could account for the shifting issue but I don't think a Shimano Ultegra is such a chain.
The current Shimano Ultegra/XT chain (CN-HG701) is directional according to the instructions that come with the chain.

Originally Posted by gotrek99 View Post
I have been waxing for years and have never had to make cable adjustments after doing so. It's more likely that removing the chain and taking the tension of the derailleur spring that the cable housing relaxed and did not re seat in quite the same way.
Thanks for this tip, I will have to pay attention to this aspect next time as well.
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Old 07-27-21, 10:34 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
For me, it was really a matter of ease of entry - the question about getting the right ingredients ("pfffft - those PTFE granules are way too big!") and the delayed shipping times just made it easier for me to spend a little more and get on with it.

Sure, I looked at the math before purchasing, too - I think that I paid $18, including shipping - and I knew that I'd be paying 5x-10x more in the long run. I know that some people like to look at relative costs to inform purchases but, particularly with low ticket items, I don't think that it always makes sense. A product or service that's 10x more expensive doesn't necessarily have to be 10x better, not when you're ultimately talking about a product that'll last years and a price difference that'll only get you a couple of Happy Meals.

I'll probably put the ingredients on a shopping list and buy them at some point, but I'll keep recommending options like MSW to noobs. Many people already perceive waxing as a faff, so lowering the bar of entry is a good thing and it can keep people from talking themselves out of something that might otherwise be a fruitful endeavor.
Yea I found the Gulf Wax at Ace for $4 and I picked up some PTFE (1.5 microns) for like 20 on Amazon, so it works out about the same if I had gone with Molten it was 20 + 8 for shipping...so meh.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:12 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
Yea I found the Gulf Wax at Ace for $4 and I picked up some PTFE (1.5 microns) for like 20 on Amazon, so it works out about the same if I had gone with Molten it was 20 + 8 for shipping...so meh.
Plus it is nice to have the PTFE, MoS2, and/or WS2 mixed in at the right ratio already. Imagine the clean up necessary if you sneeze at an inopportune moment when you are about to pour those ingredients into the wax.
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Old 07-28-21, 12:23 AM
  #107  
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Is there ANY proof these additives make any appreciable difference or are they in there for marketing purposes? I betting the difference is either nil or very close.
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Old 07-28-21, 02:27 AM
  #108  
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Depending on the mileage I get out of my first wax, I am debating doing the next wax with the Crock Pot on high (instead of low), which should speed things up and result in less wax left on the chain upon removal, thus hopefully eliminating the need to wipe the chain.
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Old 07-28-21, 04:52 AM
  #109  
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The wax will boil on high
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Old 07-28-21, 06:52 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
The wax will boil on high
depends on the croc. Mine on high won't boil. Probably why it was $6 at the thrift store.
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Old 07-28-21, 06:57 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Depending on the mileage I get out of my first wax, I am debating doing the next wax with the Crock Pot on high (instead of low), which should speed things up and result in less wax left on the chain upon removal, thus hopefully eliminating the need to wipe the chain.
Originally Posted by kingston View Post
The wax will boil on high
How hot is your crock pot? Paraffin wax boils at 698F. My crock pot barely gets above 220F.
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Old 07-28-21, 07:04 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by RGMN View Post
How hot is your crock pot? Paraffin wax boils at 698F. My crock pot barely gets above 220F.
No idea, but it ain't 698F, so boil was the wrong word, but mine starts to steam when I leave it on high too long.
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Old 07-28-21, 07:15 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Is there ANY proof these additives make any appreciable difference or are they in there for marketing purposes? I betting the difference is either nil or very close.
From Velo New's chain lube test Molten Speed Wax took 0.14 watts less than plain paraffin wax. Squirt took 0.10 watts less.

From my use I found chains waxed with paraffin only last about 3,000 miles. Chains waxed with the additives last over 4,000 miles. This was done with Campagnolo chains and was determined by when the chain got within .1mm of the 132.6mm Campagnolo specifies as the wear limit on the chain.
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Old 07-28-21, 10:02 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by RGMN View Post
From Velo New's chain lube test Molten Speed Wax took 0.14 watts less than plain paraffin wax. Squirt took 0.10 watts less.

From my use I found chains waxed with paraffin only last about 3,000 miles. Chains waxed with the additives last over 4,000 miles. This was done with Campagnolo chains and was determined by when the chain got within .1mm of the 132.6mm Campagnolo specifies as the wear limit on the chain.
132.6mm ..

How did you measure that and what does an new campy chain measure? A new Shimano and/or KMC chain measure ~123.25mm between 12 rollers, meaning 132.6mm is only ~0.25%, Including roller wear. Might as well just bin the chain right out the box ;-)
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Old 07-28-21, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
132.6mm ..

How did you measure that and what does an new campy chain measure? A new Shimano and/or KMC chain measure ~123.25mm between 12 rollers, meaning 132.6mm is only ~0.25%, Including roller wear. Might as well just bin the chain right out the box ;-)
IIRC a new chain measures around 132.2mm. Here's Campagnolo's replacement instruction from their 11/12 sp chain tech manual.

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Old 07-28-21, 01:25 PM
  #116  
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132.2mm new, bin at 132.6?

If true, that would make you bin the chain at 0.3% wear, including roller wear. I bet you true elongation is negligible at that point. Bordering on pedantic perhaps?

Did you actually measure this or are you using some sort of gauge?
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Old 07-28-21, 01:48 PM
  #117  
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For the ultrasonic clean I help out the built in heater by boiling the water in a stove pot then pouring it into the cleaner. This sufficiently is hot enough with simple green to strip the chain. I then rinse the chain. Some do an alcohol based rinse there, but I won't if it isn't a "race chain prep". For day to day riding, I skip that.

Same for wiping the chain outside, do that.

Also, before it fully cools but is cool enough to handle, remount it and back pedal it a while as it cools and I've noticed I'm able to then just back pedal it on the first ride for a few seconds and am good to go.

Here's the bottom line with lots of drip lube versus a crock wax job: a crock wax job pretty much prevents you from accumulating the grime that folks get from just adding more drip. So many group rides or weeknight worlds see these near black cassettes and chains and just cringe. If you truly clean a chain how you should for drip lube or waxing, you're doing already 75% the time spend of waxing. The crock is the last little step.

Also for time savings, spend on a spare chain. Do two at the same time. Halves the time spend. Thus almost making the whole time spend argument a wash.
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Old 07-28-21, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
No idea, but it ain't 698F, so boil was the wrong word, but mine starts to steam when I leave it on high too long.
From what I have seen online, a Crock Pot (the specific brand) is about 220 *F on low and 300 *F on high; the latter is definitely not needed to melt the wax but I am curious whether the increased temperature will decrease viscosity to a sufficient extent that it eliminates the need to wipe chain upon removal from the Crock Pot.
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Old 07-28-21, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
132.2mm new, bin at 132.6?

If true, that would make you bin the chain at 0.3% wear, including roller wear. I bet you true elongation is negligible at that point. Bordering on pedantic perhaps?

Did you actually measure this or are you using some sort of gauge?
I use my Mitutoyo 6" caliper to measure it every time the chain comes off for waxing. I get 25,000 miles minimum out of my cassettes (they usually get changed because I want different gearing rather than because they are worn out) and I have never replaced a chainring when following these instructions.
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Old 07-28-21, 02:42 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
From what I have seen online, a Crock Pot (the specific brand) is about 220 *F on low and 300 *F on high; the latter is definitely not needed to melt the wax but I am curious whether the increased temperature will decrease viscosity to a sufficient extent that it eliminates the need to wipe chain upon removal from the Crock Pot.
MSW specifically advises against going above 220 or so. Frankly, going up to the 300 region, that you're considering, would make me more concerned about wax staying liquid too long and working out of the rollers while hanging (that and, as I've mentioned multiple times, I've never needed to wipe a chain after removal, anyway).
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Old 07-28-21, 03:12 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
From what I have seen online, a Crock Pot (the specific brand) is about 220 *F on low and 300 *F on high; the latter is definitely not needed to melt the wax but I am curious whether the increased temperature will decrease viscosity to a sufficient extent that it eliminates the need to wipe chain upon removal from the Crock Pot.
Try it out if you're curious. The wax will steam and smell like burning wax, and it's not necessary for it to get that hot. Sounds like not everyone wipes the wax off anyway. I just do it to minimize the flaking. I've never had a problem shifting with a waxed chain even if I don't wipe it off.
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Old 07-28-21, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
MSW specifically advises against going above 220 or so. Frankly, going up to the 300 region, that you're considering, would make me more concerned about wax staying liquid too long and working out of the rollers while hanging (that and, as I've mentioned multiple times, I've never needed to wipe a chain after removal, anyway).
Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Try it out if you're curious. The wax will steam and smell like burning wax, and it's not necessary for it to get that hot. Sounds like not everyone wipes the wax off anyway. I just do it to minimize the flaking. I've never had a problem shifting with a waxed chain even if I don't wipe it off.
OK, thanks for the advice.
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Old 07-28-21, 11:40 PM
  #123  
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I used my 3 qt Instant pot tonight and cooked up some wax and ptfe, waxed 2 chains, let them cool, broke the wax link stiffness on one, installed on the bike, spun around the hood for a couple of laps...easy peasy, mac and cheesy. No issues shifting at all. took about 90 mins tops. the second chain was a new one I picked up a couple of years ago, so I figured I would just rotate the chains as I go and will always have one ready to roll as it were. I plan to do my this for my wife's bike as well.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:18 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
I used my 3 qt Instant pot tonight and cooked up some wax and ptfe, waxed 2 chains, let them cool, broke the wax link stiffness on one, installed on the bike, spun around the hood for a couple of laps...easy peasy, mac and cheesy. No issues shifting at all. took about 90 mins tops. the second chain was a new one I picked up a couple of years ago, so I figured I would just rotate the chains as I go and will always have one ready to roll as it were. I plan to do my this for my wife's bike as well.
What temperature setting did you use on the Instant Pot?
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Old 07-29-21, 04:44 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
Depending on the mileage I get out of my first wax, I am debating doing the next wax with the Crock Pot on high (instead of low), which should speed things up and result in less wax left on the chain upon removal, thus hopefully eliminating the need to wipe the chain.
My experience with thinning the wax by heating the crock pot on high is that the chain is a bit starved for wax and then starts to become noisy much earlier. This is my biggest complaint about waxing - noise. If anybody has a secret for how best to insure a long lasting quiet chain, I would love to hear it. In my experience with Molten Speed Wax and my home brew, for both, the chain is quietest for the first 100 miles or so. After that, it gradually becomes more and more audible especially during “grinding” high torque riding segments such as seated & standing climbs. Also, for some reason, I have found different brands of chains will make more noise in certain chainring combinations and it is a bit random. For example, my Wippermann chain can be noisier in the small chainring. I have a theory that over use of “small -small” combos can lead to faster chain wear - maybe somebody could speak to that.

I also have experienced smelly, brown colored wax when I accidentally left the crock pot on high. To be fair, this is when I turned on the crock pot ahead of time & forgot about it. For this reason, I have poured out the burnt wax and started fresh with new gulf wax.
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