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New Dura Ace R9200 announcement on GCN

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New Dura Ace R9200 announcement on GCN

Old 09-01-21, 01:37 PM
  #51  
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The more I think about it, the less I can believe 12s Ultegra or even DA will be/stay electronic only. Its completely contrary to what Shimano is doing in mtb groups and will leave a giant hole between 105 mech and ultegra DI2. Usually Shimano has options for every price point. That is assuming R8000 is not continuing parallel to R8100 DI2.
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Old 09-01-21, 01:43 PM
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Old 09-01-21, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
If there was no market for mechanical shifting, Shimano would have killed it off completely in 105 and Tiagra, which I am pretty sure wont happen for a long time. That they dropped two tiers at once should be a clear indicator about where they think the market is and where it is headed, and how they see themselves going forward.
I don't think Shimano will stop mech shifting, but that they might not bother with mech shifting for Dura-Ace and Ultegra, because the vast majority of sales is DI. I don't ever expect Sora or Claris or Tourney to go electronic.
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Old 09-01-21, 02:19 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
Im snide when people make statements that skyline themselves on the ridge of not understanding how capitalism works. Its all about choices.
Ummm .... yeah capitalism is Not in any way about choices .... it is about using capital to make more capital. The choices are made by the person with capital, who chooses what products to offer at what price point t maximize profit.

If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.

In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
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Old 09-01-21, 02:31 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
It was just funny that you seemed to blame people for not consuming enough new products as the reason for us being where we are.
Shimano makes a good enough product to last for years and years without replacing the product or bike its attached to, then you blame people for not purchasing enough bikes in recent years that are rim brake or mechanical shifting.
The mild scolding was what I found funny(and odd). Based on this thread, others interpreted your post in a similar manner too.
I thought he was being a bit tongue-in-cheek. Still .... no reason not to poke fun.

I didn't think he was blaming people ... I thought he was saying more, "If you want a seat at the table, when such decisions are being made, buy it, like I did."

Again .... I don't take any of this too seriously. Maybe I should use a lot more laughing emojis.



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Old 09-01-21, 03:16 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Ummm .... yeah capitalism is Not in any way about choices .... it is about using capital to make more capital. The choices are made by the person with capital, who chooses what products to offer at what price point t maximize profit.

If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.

In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
A LOT of it IS about choices, but it's about choices made, not choices offered. And the choices made by consumers in large part drive what choices are offered.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I don't think Shimano will stop mech shifting, but that they might not bother with mech shifting for Dura-Ace and Ultegra, because the vast majority of sales is DI. I don't ever expect Sora or Claris or Tourney to go electronic.
Agreed...but electric may migrate (eventually) to Tiagra and 105 alongside mechanical options. Purely conjecture, but in 3-4 years, not an unreasonable possibility, either.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
A LOT of it IS about choices, but it's about choices made, not choices offered. And the choices made by consumers in large part drive what choices are offered.
Unless you're Apple.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:15 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Ummm .... yeah capitalism is Not in any way about choices .... it is about using capital to make more capital. The choices are made by the person with capital, who chooses what products to offer at what price point t maximize profit.

If it was all about choices, I'd be able to choose to buy 6800, or Sora DI. Shimano isn't interested in giving me choices, it is interested is selling what can be sold in a balance of production/supply cost, volume, and cost, to maximize profit.

In any case .... it's just BF. Nothing we say or do here matters all that much.
It is definitely about choices. Choosing to buy something sends a message, while being content with what you have because it meets all of your needs also sends a message in the sense that no message of preference is being registered. I am ONLY talking abut how we, as consumers, impact these firms. As you say their goal is to take capital and make more of it, how do you think they decide to do it? Easy answer, through our choices, more specifically he ones they can measure. When we choose to be content with what we have (which is just fine), we are not making a choice they can measure. But, when we choose to buy mechanical over electronic, or rim over disc, they can measure that. That is what I am getting at. So when people bemoan the shift to all electric, or a near total shift to disc over rim, I am here to remind us all that the isn't happen because it a capricious decision, it is driven by what was bought by those who chose to buy.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Unless you're Apple.
That's the impression we all have, and it has certainly been helped by the ghost of Steve J. Apple isn't dumb. They definitely take risks, and they depend heavily on "normalization," but they've definitely followed consumer preferences.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
That's the impression we all have, and it has certainly been helped by the ghost of Steve J. Apple isn't dumb. They definitely take risks, and they depend heavily on "normalization," but they've definitely followed consumer preferences.
Perhaps. No removable memory card ability, or their own proprietary charging cord, or non user-replaceable batteries, or taking until generation 7 to make the phone water resistant. Plenty of things consumers would have preferred but sometimes the marketing promised pluses outweigh the negatives.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Perhaps. No removable memory card ability, or their own proprietary charging cord, or non user-replaceable batteries, or taking until generation 7 to make the phone water resistant. Plenty of things consumers would have preferred but sometimes the marketing promised pluses outweigh the negatives.
Then buy an Android. Or buy Mircoshift. Or buy nothing. It all sends a message, though some message are louder than others. And just because we don't get what we want, doesn't mean the company making the stuff isn't getting what it wants. Folks can complain about Shimano's two top tier groups being electronic only and focused on disc braking, but in reality, what I see here is that the folks complaining the loudest are probably not the target demographic for the new stuff, and they're quite proud of that until someone comes along and reminds them.

Just musing now....in the past Shimano's technological development strategy depended on trickle down, I'm baffled as to how this will impact subsequent generations of 105 and Tiagra. Maybe the magic of Shimano shifting was never in the actual mechanical operation of their drivetrains (save the groundbreaking index shifting when they introduced it). Maybe it isn how the chain and cogs interface. If that is so, the new HG+ is a bigger deal than the electronic shifting or 12 cogs vice 11 now. And, once that tech tickles down, 105 and Tiagra get even smoother than they already are, get quieter, and probably get a touch lighter.
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Old 09-01-21, 04:49 PM
  #63  
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Old 09-01-21, 05:41 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
The more I think about it, the less I can believe 12s Ultegra or even DA will be/stay electronic only. Its completely contrary to what Shimano is doing in mtb groups and will leave a giant hole between 105 mech and ultegra DI2. Usually Shimano has options for every price point. That is assuming R8000 is not continuing parallel to R8100 DI2.
Yeah it's a surprise to me. Yes, the latest 105 mechanical is pretty sweet, but there still must be a sizeable market for people who want "classic" high end mechanical groupsets. Bikes without internal wiring options? Or are all these people already on Campag? 😂

Either way I'm sure the accountants have run the numbers and decided what is the most profitable route.

Maybe Shimano will continue mechanical Dura Ace or Ultegra groupsets into the future, but just in 11-speed guise? Who knows...
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Old 09-01-21, 05:59 PM
  #65  
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The bike market changes .... it has changed markedly several times in my lifetime. What Shimano has been doing successfully since somewhere in the '90s might not be the best course in the 2020s. As people say, they will crunch the numbers, make their predictions, and sell whatever they think will make them the most money over whatever time frame.

Who knows how Covid has changed their plans? Pretty sure bike sales are down due to lack of inventory, and pretty sure manufacturing hasn't ramped up yet .... is Shimano still waiting on all payment for all those tens of thousands of low-end group sets they sell to big box store bike makers in China? Apparently it might be hard to get the new 12-speed stuff .... will that slow introduction of other updates? Obviously the Choices we make as consumers aren't driving this, as we are not yet allowed to choose to buy the stuff .....

Whatever. I doubt I will ever ride a 12-speed or a DI-equipped bike. Not even sure I will ever buy another bike---I already have enough bikes that can perform way better than I can, and buying the latest Greatest won't change how much of that potential is wasted by me.

It sure is fun to kick stuff around on BF after a pleasant rain ride, though.
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Old 09-01-21, 06:18 PM
  #66  
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I bet I’ll be replacing my mechanical rim brake 11 speed Dura Ace groupset in 10 years with 11 speed Claris.
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Old 09-01-21, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
People say that, but I can't imagine better shifting than I get with 7800 shifters and RD, and a 7400 FD. Honestly, I DON'T get better shifting on R7000 105 than I get on much older DA.

Then again, I haven't tried Di2. Probably shouldn't, unless I win the lottery.
In terms of rear shifting, the generation containing 7800 was a high point and there was a definite step back with the next generation, when they went under the bar tape - a little higher effort, a little more vague in feel, to me. I think that it's gotten better and better since, though. IME, which started with 5600, FD performance is way better, but I never played with 10sp DA.
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Old 09-01-21, 07:01 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
In terms of rear shifting, the generation containing 7800 was a high point and there was a definite step back with the next generation, when they went under the bar tape - a little higher effort, a little more vague in feel, to me. I think that it's gotten better and better since, though. IME, which started with 5600, FD performance is way better, but I never played with 10sp DA.
I never experienced anything but instant, silent shifting from big ring to small and back with 7400 STIs and FD. No chain drops, just *click* and it's in the other ring. Spoiled me for every other FD.
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Old 09-01-21, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
It is definitely about choices. Choosing to buy something sends a message, while being content with what you have because it meets all of your needs also sends a message in the sense that no message of preference is being registered. I am ONLY talking abut how we, as consumers, impact these firms. As you say their goal is to take capital and make more of it, how do you think they decide to do it? Easy answer, through our choices, more specifically he ones they can measure. When we choose to be content with what we have (which is just fine), we are not making a choice they can measure. But, when we choose to buy mechanical over electronic, or rim over disc, they can measure that. That is what I am getting at. So when people bemoan the shift to all electric, or a near total shift to disc over rim, I am here to remind us all that the isn't happen because it a capricious decision, it is driven by what was bought by those who chose to buy.
There was little price difference and even less performance/quality difference between ultegra and 105. 105 became that good.
Now there is a tangible difference between Ultegra and 105 moving forward.


It's either that obvious and very real change, or its consumers speaking with their wallets, even though mechanical shifting bikes have been bought in droves over the last few years.
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Old 09-02-21, 12:14 AM
  #70  
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Excellent points, I do not disagree. Perhaps a better way to look at it mstateglfr is that (a) Shimano has once again made a clear differentiation between Ultegra and 105, and moved Ultegra back closer to DA as it was not even 10 years ago, and (b) yes, lot os mechanical groups have been bought, in fact the majority of bikes being sold with Shimano have mechanical groups on them, but they are int he price range that Shimano is targeting with the new DA and Ultegra electronic shifting groups.
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Old 09-02-21, 02:40 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
Exciting stuff. But, until I can score a new groupset, I'm just going to sit over here and eat popcorn while the luddites bemoan that they don't want electronic shifting or disc brakes, and then tell us their 20-year old frames can't run this stuff
Or one year old frames. Damn those lowly peons. When they get some experience like us they'll realize electronic shifting and disc brakes makes you faster. And most importantly, no one will be checking out their bikes in the parking lot before the group ride. I spend thousands for that alone and I buy a new bike every 12 months.
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Old 09-02-21, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
Excellent points, I do not disagree. Perhaps a better way to look at it mstateglfr is that (a) Shimano has once again made a clear differentiation between Ultegra and 105, and moved Ultegra back closer to DA as it was not even 10 years ago, and (b) yes, lot os mechanical groups have been bought, in fact the majority of bikes being sold with Shimano have mechanical groups on them, but they are int he price range that Shimano is targeting with the new DA and Ultegra electronic shifting groups.
I think Shimano will fill the now large price and features gap between 105 and Ultegra with something like a new, more expensive version of 105 Di2, like SRAM did with Rival AXS, or a whole new tier below Ultegra, yet to be named. Either way, I just hope they launch a mechanical version of 105 with 12 speeds, hyperglide+ and the updated disc calipers. That would be sweet, and probably the only one I could conceivably afford down the line.
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Old 09-02-21, 05:49 AM
  #73  
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Electronics are pretty simple compared to what's inside a mechanical shifter. Expect an electric 105 at the current sales point.
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Old 09-02-21, 06:42 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
The more I think about it, the less I can believe 12s Ultegra or even DA will be/stay electronic only. Its completely contrary to what Shimano is doing in mtb groups...
While it's clear that most recent innovations from Shimano start with their mountain bike group sets these days, electronic shifting seems to be "a roadie thing" for some odd reason. XTR Di2 exists, but I personally don't see many bikes with it.

Perhaps one reason is that mountain bikers often adopt a 1x setup and thus can't justify the price difference to just shift the rear mech? As a roadie with a 2x Ultegra Di2 setup, the Di2 "synchro shift mode" is lovely and a HUGE advantage (to me) over mechanical group sets. I always hated shifting a mechanical group set from the large to small chain ring (and vice-versa) because of the huge jump in gear ratios and a lot of fiddling around. Di2 solves that problem so I can just focus on riding and not shifting.
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Old 09-02-21, 06:51 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
Or one year old frames. Damn those lowly peons. When they get some experience like us they'll realize electronic shifting and disc brakes makes you faster.
If you bought a frame a year ago with rim brakes and the inability to internally route/house an electronic groupset, then you went out of your way to buy out-of-(modern)-spec and that's all on you.
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